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#1




MS vs PF
Thanks for reposting the RCC FAQ. It was helpful for a newbie. One (at a
time) question I am struggling with is Proof vs Mint State. The Red Book says that "Proof refers to the method of manufacture and is not the condition". So if I handed you what looked like a perfect coin, how would you know if it should be a MS69 or a PF69? Kim 
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#2




Kim E wrote:
Thanks for reposting the RCC FAQ. It was helpful for a newbie. One (at a time) question I am struggling with is Proof vs Mint State. The Red Book says that "Proof refers to the method of manufacture and is not the condition". So if I handed you what looked like a perfect coin, how would you know if it should be a MS69 or a PF69? Kim Modern proof coins are struck using polished dies. This gives the fields a highly reflective `mirror' like surface. If you need stabndards to gauge against get hold of a recent proof set and a BU set from whatever country you live in. The difference in the strikes will be very obvious to the eye. 
#3




"Ian" wrote in message k... Kim E wrote: Thanks for reposting the RCC FAQ. It was helpful for a newbie. One (at a time) question I am struggling with is Proof vs Mint State. The Red Book says that "Proof refers to the method of manufacture and is not the condition". So if I handed you what looked like a perfect coin, how would you know if it should be a MS69 or a PF69? Kim Modern proof coins are struck using polished dies. This gives the fields a highly reflective `mirror' like surface. If you need stabndards to gauge against get hold of a recent proof set and a BU set from whatever country you live in. The difference in the strikes will be very obvious to the eye. As you move into older proofs then the difference can be much more difficult to tell apart from a simple visual inspection. What country and what series are you interested in? Dale 
#4




"Kim E" wrote in message ... Thanks for reposting the RCC FAQ. It was helpful for a newbie. One (at a time) question I am struggling with is Proof vs Mint State. The Red Book says that "Proof refers to the method of manufacture and is not the condition". So if I handed you what looked like a perfect coin, how would you know if it should be a MS69 or a PF69? Kim Have you seen proof coin up close? The modern issues are very easy to distinguish. Here is a description of proof I put in my auctions, hope it's not more info than you want. P WHAT ARE PROOF COINSPProof coins are specially manufactured for sale at a premium to collectors. Proofs are generally distinguishable from ordinary coins by their mirrorlike fields, frosty devices (especially in recent years) and extra sharp details.P Each proof coin die is polished to produce an extremely smooth surface and used for a limited number of coins. Planchets are hand fed to the coin press, where they are struck at a higher than ordinary pressure. Struck coins are removed by hand with gloves or tongs. Modern proof coins are usually packaged in clear plastic to protect them from handling, moisture, etc.P For many years the U.S. Mint has sold annual sets of proof coins. These proof sets usually contain one proof coin of each denomination minted. In 1983, 1984 and 198697, Prestige Sets were also sold. Prestige Sets include all the coins in the regular set, plus one or two commemorative coins issued the same year. Since 1992, the Mint has also offered Silver Proof Sets, which include 90% silver versions of the proof dime, quarter(s) and half dollar. From 1992 through 1998, the Mint also offered a Premier Silver Proof Set. The two types of silver proof sets contain the same coins, with the premier set housing them in fancier packaging.P 
#5




So, if I can paraphrase, Proof does imply a different
appearance but does not directly imply condition. When the mint is done running proofs, do they destroy the proof dies or do they get retasked as dies for "normal" coins? Most of the coins I have are from the US. I am most interested in silver bullion. Kim "Dale Hallmark" wrote in message ... "Ian" wrote in message k... Kim E wrote: Thanks for reposting the RCC FAQ. It was helpful for a newbie. One (at a time) question I am struggling with is Proof vs Mint State. The Red Book says that "Proof refers to the method of manufacture and is not the condition". So if I handed you what looked like a perfect coin, how would you know if it should be a MS69 or a PF69? Kim Modern proof coins are struck using polished dies. This gives the fields a highly reflective `mirror' like surface. If you need stabndards to gauge against get hold of a recent proof set and a BU set from whatever country you live in. The difference in the strikes will be very obvious to the eye. As you move into older proofs then the difference can be much more difficult to tell apart from a simple visual inspection. What country and what series are you interested in? Dale 
#6




So, if I can paraphrase, Proof does imply a
different appearance but does not directly imply condition. No. Proof refers to the way in which it was made; that is its condition. Even i it is mishandled or even circulated, a proof is still a proof. There are coins out there that are graded Proof12. That is a heavily worn proof, but still a proof. Proof coins will usually look different from "normally" struck coins but the differences can be very subtle. Think of it like this there are photographs and paintings. Generally, you can tell when an image is painted or a photograph. There are paintings so good they look like a photograph but the "method of manufacture" is still painting. Similarly, a photograph can be creased so that fine lines appear and it looks like a painting but it's still a photograph. Perhaps a better analogy is whether a sculpture is hand carved or formed in a mold. You might not be able to tell them apart, but they are two different methods of manufacture. I suggest not using "condition" as it can confuse the issue. Instead, use "method of manufacture" to distiguish between proof and socalled business strike (or "normal") coins, and then use a numerical grade like 20, 50, 65, etc. Since you can have a coin that grades a 65 be either proof (the way it was made) as in Proof65 or mint state (a business strike or "normal" coin) as in Mint State65 or worn coins be Proof20 or Very Fine20. The term "uncirculated" applies to "normal" coins that rate a numerical grade of between 60 and 70 (70 is the highest). Proof coins are referred to as ProofX (where X is the number grade whether it's 20, 30, 65, 69, etc). I really hope this helps and doesn't confuse you more. When the mint is done running proofs, do they destroy the proof dies or do they get retasked as dies for "normal" coins? Generally it is not worth the trouble to take a used proof die and refurbish it for use in striking "normal" coins but it does occaisionally happen. Most of the coins I have are from the US. I am most interested in silver bullion. The difference between a Proof Silver Eagle and an Uncirculated (or "Mint State" as used for "normal" coins) one is going to be immediately obvious and a good visual lesson in the differences between the two. It might be worth the investment of a dollar or so to buy a common modern Proof Lincoln cent (it will have an "S" mintmark) and let it jumble around in your pocket for a month or two. Then, knowing it's a Proof, examine it and try to see how you can tell it was manufactured as a Proof even though it's now worn the sharpness of the rim, etc. I hope this helps you. Steve 
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