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MS vs PF



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 16th 05, 03:33 AM
Kim E
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Default MS vs PF

Thanks for reposting the RCC FAQ. It was helpful for a newbie. One (at a
time) question I am struggling with is Proof vs Mint State. The Red Book
says that "Proof refers to the method of manufacture and is not the
condition". So if I handed you what looked like a perfect coin, how would
you know if it should be a MS69 or a PF69?

Kim


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  #2  
Old January 16th 05, 03:44 AM
Ian
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Kim E wrote:
Thanks for reposting the RCC FAQ. It was helpful for a newbie. One (at a
time) question I am struggling with is Proof vs Mint State. The Red Book
says that "Proof refers to the method of manufacture and is not the
condition". So if I handed you what looked like a perfect coin, how would
you know if it should be a MS69 or a PF69?

Kim



Modern proof coins are struck using polished dies. This gives the fields
a highly reflective `mirror' like surface. If you need stabndards to
gauge against get hold of a recent proof set and a BU set from whatever
country you live in. The difference in the strikes will be very obvious
to the eye.

  #3  
Old January 16th 05, 03:53 AM
Dale Hallmark
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Default


"Ian" wrote in message
k...
Kim E wrote:
Thanks for reposting the RCC FAQ. It was helpful for a newbie. One (at
a time) question I am struggling with is Proof vs Mint State. The Red
Book says that "Proof refers to the method of manufacture and is not the
condition". So if I handed you what looked like a perfect coin, how
would you know if it should be a MS69 or a PF69?

Kim


Modern proof coins are struck using polished dies. This gives the fields a
highly reflective `mirror' like surface. If you need stabndards to gauge
against get hold of a recent proof set and a BU set from whatever country
you live in. The difference in the strikes will be very obvious to the
eye.



As you move into older proofs then the difference can be much more difficult
to tell apart
from a simple visual inspection.
What country and what series are you interested in?

Dale


  #4  
Old January 16th 05, 07:31 PM
Michael R
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Default


"Kim E" wrote in message
...
Thanks for reposting the RCC FAQ. It was helpful for a newbie. One (at a
time) question I am struggling with is Proof vs Mint State. The Red Book
says that "Proof refers to the method of manufacture and is not the
condition". So if I handed you what looked like a perfect coin, how would
you know if it should be a MS69 or a PF69?

Kim

Have you seen proof coin up close? The modern issues are very easy to
distinguish.
Here is a description of proof I put in my auctions, hope it's not more info
than you want.

P WHAT ARE PROOF COINSPProof coins are specially manufactured for sale
at a premium to collectors. Proofs are generally distinguishable from
ordinary coins by their mirrorlike fields, frosty devices (especially in
recent years) and extra sharp details.P

Each proof coin die is polished to produce an extremely smooth surface and
used for a limited number of coins. Planchets are hand fed to the coin
press, where they are struck at a higher than ordinary pressure. Struck
coins are removed by hand with gloves or tongs. Modern proof coins are
usually packaged in clear plastic to protect them from handling, moisture,
etc.P

For many years the U.S. Mint has sold annual sets of proof coins. These
proof sets usually contain one proof coin of each denomination minted. In
1983, 1984 and 1986-97, Prestige Sets were also sold. Prestige Sets include
all the coins in the regular set, plus one or two commemorative coins issued
the same year. Since 1992, the Mint has also offered Silver Proof Sets,
which include 90% silver versions of the proof dime, quarter(s) and half
dollar. From 1992 through 1998, the Mint also offered a Premier Silver Proof
Set. The two types of silver proof sets contain the same coins, with the
premier set housing them in fancier packaging.P


  #5  
Old January 16th 05, 10:46 PM
Kim E
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Default

So, if I can paraphrase, Proof does imply a different
appearance but does not directly imply condition.

When the mint is done running proofs, do they destroy the
proof dies or do they get retasked as dies for "normal"
coins?

Most of the coins I have are from the US. I am most
interested in silver bullion.

Kim

"Dale Hallmark" wrote in message
...

"Ian" wrote in message
k...
Kim E wrote:
Thanks for reposting the RCC FAQ. It was helpful for a
newbie. One (at a time) question I am struggling with
is Proof vs Mint State. The Red Book says that "Proof
refers to the method of manufacture and is not the
condition". So if I handed you what looked like a
perfect coin, how would you know if it should be a MS69
or a PF69?

Kim


Modern proof coins are struck using polished dies. This
gives the fields a highly reflective `mirror' like
surface. If you need stabndards to gauge against get hold
of a recent proof set and a BU set from whatever country
you live in. The difference in the strikes will be very
obvious to the eye.



As you move into older proofs then the difference can be
much more difficult to tell apart
from a simple visual inspection.
What country and what series are you interested in?

Dale



  #6  
Old January 17th 05, 05:28 AM
Steven Preston
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Posts: n/a
Default

So, if I can paraphrase, Proof does imply a
different appearance but does not directly imply
condition.


No. Proof refers to the way in which it was made; that is its condition.
Even i it is mishandled or even circulated, a proof is still a proof.
There are coins out there that are graded Proof-12. That is a heavily
worn proof, but still a proof. Proof coins will usually look different
from "normally" struck coins but the differences can be very subtle.
Think of it like this- there are photographs and paintings.
Generally, you can tell when an image is painted or a photograph. There
are paintings so good they look like a photograph but the "method of
manufacture" is still painting. Similarly, a photograph can be creased
so that fine lines appear and it looks like a painting but it's still a
photograph. Perhaps a better analogy is whether a sculpture is hand
carved or formed in a mold. You might not be able to tell them apart,
but they are two different methods of manufacture. I suggest not using
"condition" as it can confuse the issue. Instead, use "method of
manufacture" to distiguish between proof and so-called business strike
(or "normal") coins, and then use a numerical grade like 20, 50, 65,
etc. Since you can have a coin that grades a 65 be either proof (the way
it was made) as in Proof-65 or mint state (a business strike or "normal"
coin) as in Mint State-65 or worn coins be Proof-20 or Very Fine-20. The
term "uncirculated" applies to "normal" coins that rate a numerical
grade of between 60 and 70 (70 is the highest). Proof coins are referred
to as Proof-X (where X is the number grade whether it's 20, 30, 65, 69,
etc). I really hope this helps and doesn't confuse you more.

When the mint is done running proofs, do they
destroy the proof dies or do they get retasked
as dies for "normal" coins?


Generally it is not worth the trouble to take a used proof die and
refurbish it for use in striking "normal" coins but it does
occaisionally happen.

Most of the coins I have are from the US. I am
most interested in silver bullion.


The difference between a Proof Silver Eagle and an Uncirculated (or
"Mint State" as used for "normal" coins) one is going to be immediately
obvious and a good visual lesson in the differences between the two. It
might be worth the investment of a dollar or so to buy a common modern
Proof Lincoln cent (it will have an "S" mintmark) and let it jumble
around in your pocket for a month or two. Then, knowing it's a Proof,
examine it and try to see how you can tell it was manufactured as a
Proof even though it's now worn- the sharpness of the rim, etc. I hope
this helps you.

-Steve

 




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