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Unknown coin - can you help identify it?



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 8th 04, 02:53 AM
jon d'souza^eva
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Default Unknown coin - can you help identify it?

Hi,

I recently bought a bag of coin and token oddments. I've managed to identify
all but two; this is one of them:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dsouzae...n/unknown1.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dsouzae...n/unknown2.jpg

It weighs a mere 1.6 grams and is about 15 mm across.

I know nothing about gold coins (I specialise in copper), but this looks
like gold to me (it's certainly a different colour to my many "in memory of
the good old days" tokens!).

Can anyone identify this for me?

Thanks a lot,

Jon


Ads
  #2  
Old July 8th 04, 09:58 AM
Peter Smith
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Default

On Thu, 08 Jul 2004 01:53:20 GMT, "jon d'souza^eva"
wrote:

Hi

What you have there looks like a Nuremburg Jetton, And if I am not
mistaken it is a Hans Krauwinckel Type (1586 - 1635)

Hope this helps

Pete

Hi,

I recently bought a bag of coin and token oddments. I've managed to identify
all but two; this is one of them:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dsouzae...n/unknown1.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dsouzae...n/unknown2.jpg

It weighs a mere 1.6 grams and is about 15 mm across.

I know nothing about gold coins (I specialise in copper), but this looks
like gold to me (it's certainly a different colour to my many "in memory of
the good old days" tokens!).

Can anyone identify this for me?

Thanks a lot,

Jon


  #3  
Old July 8th 04, 02:54 PM
Michael E. Marotta
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Default

Peter Smith wrote:
What you have there looks like a Nuremburg Jetton, And if I am not
mistaken it is a Hans Krauwinckel Type (1586 - 1635)


Wow, man! I am impressed. Was that hard to do? I mean, I had a devil
of a time making much of anything out and at that I was looking for
the standard abbreviations, which I did not see.

Is there a book?

And do you think you need to explain what a Jetton is? ("The king was
in the counting house, counting out his money..." Well, that was fine
for HRM, of course, but you could not trust just anyone.)

Michael
.... as a token of our esteem...
  #4  
Old July 8th 04, 04:19 PM
Peter Smith
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On 8 Jul 2004 06:54:22 -0700, (Michael E.
Marotta) wrote:

Peter Smith wrote:
What you have there looks like a Nuremburg Jetton, And if I am not
mistaken it is a Hans Krauwinckel Type (1586 - 1635)


Wow, man! I am impressed. Was that hard to do? I mean, I had a devil
of a time making much of anything out and at that I was looking for
the standard abbreviations, which I did not see.

Is there a book?

And do you think you need to explain what a Jetton is? ("The king was
in the counting house, counting out his money..." Well, that was fine
for HRM, of course, but you could not trust just anyone.)

Michael
... as a token of our esteem...


Hi, once again

A bit more info for those who like a bit more info

Jettons, or reckoning counters, were probably first used in France in
the early 13th century and were in use in England by the reign of
Edward I (1280). Early English ones were sometimes produced from the
same dies as Edward's new coinage, but in bronze instead of silver.
Also the majority of English counters were pierced to distinguish them
from their sterling counterparts These jettons are quite scarce.

The English series continued throughout the reigns of Edward II &
Edward III. The earlier counters continued to be of sterling size,
and either imitated the contemporary pence or bore interesting
medieval devices. The portrait on these tokens did not always bear a
king's head crowned. Several counters bear a mitred head rather than
a crowned, indicating ecclesiastical usage (possibly the forerunner to
Boy Bishop tokens)

Counters of Edward III's reign tend to be larger and thicker than
earlier issues. Particulary interesting are the wardrobe counters
issued for use on the chequer board of the Kings wardrobe, an office
responsible for the personal finances of the royal household.

By the 14th century, French & Flemish jettons began to appear in
larger quantities and remain common until German jettons from
Nurenburg replaced them in the 16th century.

It is the 16th century Nurenberg jettons which are most common (many
have been found at the sites of abbeys) and there are many varieties.
The commonest of all depicts the Imperial Orb (Reichsapfel - The city
emblem) set within a double tressure of three curves and three angles
on one side and three crowns and three lys arranged alternately around
a rose on the other side. The Orb first appeared on some Low Countries
types but predominates on the Nurenburg. The earlier ones have
meaningless legends but by the mid to late 16th century they bear the
maker's name and a religious slogan, such as GOTES SEGEN MACHT REICH
)God's blessing maketh rich) or the serious HEIT RODT MORGEN TODT
(Today red, tomorrow dead)

The pricipal issuers we

Hans Schultes - 1553 - 1584
George Schultes 1515-1559
Hans Schultes 1 1553-1584
Hans Schultes 2 1586-1603
Hans Schultes 3 1608-1612
Damianus Krauwinckel 1543-1581
Egidius Krauwinckel 1570-1613
Hans Krauwinckel 1 1562-1586
Hans Krauwinckel 2 1586-1635
Killianus Koch 1580- ?
Wolf Lauffer 1 1554-1601
Hans Lauffer 1 1584-1632
Matheus Lauffer 1612-1634
Wolf Lauffer 2 1612-1631
Conrad Lauffer 1637-1668
Wolf Lauffer 3 1650-1670
Lazarus Gottleib Lauffer 1663-1709

As for books, here are a few I know of

Barnard F.P. - The Casting Counter and the Counting Board (1917)
Berry George - Medieval English Jettons (1974)
Eklund O.P - The Counters of Nuremberg (1926)
Feuardent F - Jetons et Mereau (1904-15)
Gebert C.F - Die Nurnberger Rechenpfennigschlager (1918)

Mitchener Michael Jetons, Medallets and Tokens
Vol. 1 Mediaeval period & Nuremberg (1988)

Mitchener Michael Jetons, Medallets and Tokens
Vol. 2 The Low Countries & France (1991)

Snelling Thomas - A view of Jettons London (1769)

I hope this information is helpful.

Peter
  #5  
Old July 8th 04, 10:59 PM
jon d'souza^eva
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Default

Hi Peter,

Thanks very much for the reply. I searched for pictures of this type of
jetton on the internet and found something very similar to mine:
http://home.planet.nl/~tolsm031/Enge...els.htm#jeton3

Oh well, I was hoping it was a medieval French gold coin!

Jon

"Peter Smith" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 08 Jul 2004 01:53:20 GMT, "jon d'souza^eva"
wrote:

Hi

What you have there looks like a Nuremburg Jetton, And if I am not
mistaken it is a Hans Krauwinckel Type (1586 - 1635)

Hope this helps

Pete

Hi,

I recently bought a bag of coin and token oddments. I've managed to

identify
all but two; this is one of them:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dsouzae...n/unknown1.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dsouzae...n/unknown2.jpg

It weighs a mere 1.6 grams and is about 15 mm across.

I know nothing about gold coins (I specialise in copper), but this looks
like gold to me (it's certainly a different colour to my many "in memory

of
the good old days" tokens!).

Can anyone identify this for me?

Thanks a lot,

Jon




  #6  
Old July 9th 04, 12:32 PM
Michael E. Marotta
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Peter Smith wrote:
Jettons, or reckoning counters, were probably first used in France in
the early 13th century and were ...


Thanks! I printed out the two-page post and stuck it in my special
file folder of numismatic research. It is often said that dealers are
forced to be generalists while collectors have the luxury of
specializing. You prove the point, again.

Among the many interesting historical contexts is the fact that the
jettons ("throws") were used with a "checker board." In the UK, what
Americans would call the Treasury, is still called the Exchequer.
Squares were accounts and jettons were entries. It was a system of
one-to-one mapping.

At the same time, algebra and Arabic numerals were pretty much
entrenched in Venice, Florence, etc. (The city council of Florence
actually outlawed algebra and Arabic numerals in the 13th century I
believe, but the ban could not hold.) In the 1400s, mathematicians in
towns in Italy held public contests in factoring and solving
quadradics and diophantines and such. In the north, however, older
customs lived on.

On the other hand -- and I don't know how historically accurate this
is -- in the recent movie GIRL WITH A PEARL EARRING, the butcher's
apprentice tells the maid that he will "enter it on the books" that
she owes him a smile. It was also from about that time (Rubens:
1577-1640) that Simon Stevin van Brugghe (1548-1620) advocated the
decimal system as an alternative to fractions. (So says Breen's
ENCYCLOPEDIA.) Even so, German cities continued their fractional
thalers into the 1800s.

Michael
ANA R-162953
  #7  
Old July 9th 04, 04:42 PM
Ian
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Posts: n/a
Default

Peter,

Out of sheer interest, why is it that you refer to it as a `jetton' as
opposed to `jeton'?

The word jeton stems from the french verb jeter which means `to throw'.
jetons were `throw pieces' or `place pieces', or (in other words a
reckoning counter (the Nurnberg type sometimes being referred to as
rechenpfennigs). Their placement on a checker type board determining the
value of a transaction or series of transactions.

I've noticed over the years that some people (specifically in England)
insist on calling them `jettons'. Whenever i've spoken to dealers and
collectors in the UK about `jetons' (french pronounciation) I get blank
stares. It's probably too poncy to use a french accent in the UK these
days anyway :-). When I say jettons (as in Jet-uns) they say `ah yes
those things. Had some last week, but none at present' I've never had
any luck buying decent examples of jetons in the UK. True, there is no
shortage of corroded bits of metal that leave it to your imagination
what these early jetons once looked like.

I've been toying with the idea of getting hold of a copy of Mitchiner
specifically for the Lowlands and France, but I haven't come across one
in the flesh to browse through and see if its what i'm looking for. How
does it compare with Feuardent for classification and reference images?
Hopefully it is better, but I would be pleasantly surprised if it is as
comprehensive.

Ian

Peter Smith wrote:
On Thu, 08 Jul 2004 01:53:20 GMT, "jon d'souza^eva"
wrote:

Hi

What you have there looks like a Nuremburg Jetton, And if I am not
mistaken it is a Hans Krauwinckel Type (1586 - 1635)

Hope this helps

Pete


Hi,

I recently bought a bag of coin and token oddments. I've managed to identify
all but two; this is one of them:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dsouzae...n/unknown1.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dsouzae...n/unknown2.jpg

It weighs a mere 1.6 grams and is about 15 mm across.

I know nothing about gold coins (I specialise in copper), but this looks
like gold to me (it's certainly a different colour to my many "in memory of
the good old days" tokens!).

Can anyone identify this for me?

Thanks a lot,

Jon



  #8  
Old July 9th 04, 09:43 PM
Peter Smith
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 15:42:44 GMT, Ian
wrote:

Hi Ian & All

The reason I refer to them as 'Jetton' instead of 'Jeton', is because
the first book that I read used the term 'Jetton'. I suppose it is
just what you get use to first.

With me it is the same as "To Hanover" Tokens, I got use to calling
them "Cumberland Jacks", once again this was because this was the
first term I saw for these items. Now if I go into a coin shop and
ask for a "Cumberland Jack", I too get get blank stares.

As for the books, I can't really help. I haven't collected enough
Jettons / jetons / Brass discs to warrant the outlay for the
books. Though I did find the "Paranumismatic Dictionary" a very
helpful book.

Peter




Peter,

Out of sheer interest, why is it that you refer to it as a `jetton' as
opposed to `jeton'?

The word jeton stems from the french verb jeter which means `to throw'.
jetons were `throw pieces' or `place pieces', or (in other words a
reckoning counter (the Nurnberg type sometimes being referred to as
rechenpfennigs). Their placement on a checker type board determining the
value of a transaction or series of transactions.

I've noticed over the years that some people (specifically in England)
insist on calling them `jettons'. Whenever i've spoken to dealers and
collectors in the UK about `jetons' (french pronounciation) I get blank
stares. It's probably too poncy to use a french accent in the UK these
days anyway :-). When I say jettons (as in Jet-uns) they say `ah yes
those things. Had some last week, but none at present' I've never had
any luck buying decent examples of jetons in the UK. True, there is no
shortage of corroded bits of metal that leave it to your imagination
what these early jetons once looked like.

I've been toying with the idea of getting hold of a copy of Mitchiner
specifically for the Lowlands and France, but I haven't come across one
in the flesh to browse through and see if its what i'm looking for. How
does it compare with Feuardent for classification and reference images?
Hopefully it is better, but I would be pleasantly surprised if it is as
comprehensive.

Ian

Peter Smith wrote:
On Thu, 08 Jul 2004 01:53:20 GMT, "jon d'souza^eva"
wrote:

Hi

What you have there looks like a Nuremburg Jetton, And if I am not
mistaken it is a Hans Krauwinckel Type (1586 - 1635)

Hope this helps

Pete


Hi,

I recently bought a bag of coin and token oddments. I've managed to identify
all but two; this is one of them:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dsouzae...n/unknown1.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dsouzae...n/unknown2.jpg

It weighs a mere 1.6 grams and is about 15 mm across.

I know nothing about gold coins (I specialise in copper), but this looks
like gold to me (it's certainly a different colour to my many "in memory of
the good old days" tokens!).

Can anyone identify this for me?

Thanks a lot,

Jon




  #9  
Old July 10th 04, 06:42 AM
Ian
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

You are sounding more like Paul Withers by the minute. Excepting that
he's probably bought (and sold) all of the books mentioned, as well as
reviewing said `dictionary' in E-Sylum. :-)


Ian

Peter Smith wrote:

On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 15:42:44 GMT, Ian
wrote:

Hi Ian & All

The reason I refer to them as 'Jetton' instead of 'Jeton', is because
the first book that I read used the term 'Jetton'. I suppose it is
just what you get use to first.

With me it is the same as "To Hanover" Tokens, I got use to calling
them "Cumberland Jacks", once again this was because this was the
first term I saw for these items. Now if I go into a coin shop and
ask for a "Cumberland Jack", I too get get blank stares.

As for the books, I can't really help. I haven't collected enough
Jettons / jetons / Brass discs to warrant the outlay for the
books. Though I did find the "Paranumismatic Dictionary" a very
helpful book.

Peter





Peter,

Out of sheer interest, why is it that you refer to it as a `jetton' as
opposed to `jeton'?

The word jeton stems from the french verb jeter which means `to throw'.
jetons were `throw pieces' or `place pieces', or (in other words a
reckoning counter (the Nurnberg type sometimes being referred to as
rechenpfennigs). Their placement on a checker type board determining the
value of a transaction or series of transactions.

I've noticed over the years that some people (specifically in England)
insist on calling them `jettons'. Whenever i've spoken to dealers and
collectors in the UK about `jetons' (french pronounciation) I get blank
stares. It's probably too poncy to use a french accent in the UK these
days anyway :-). When I say jettons (as in Jet-uns) they say `ah yes
those things. Had some last week, but none at present' I've never had
any luck buying decent examples of jetons in the UK. True, there is no
shortage of corroded bits of metal that leave it to your imagination
what these early jetons once looked like.

I've been toying with the idea of getting hold of a copy of Mitchiner
specifically for the Lowlands and France, but I haven't come across one
in the flesh to browse through and see if its what i'm looking for. How
does it compare with Feuardent for classification and reference images?
Hopefully it is better, but I would be pleasantly surprised if it is as
comprehensive.

Ian

Peter Smith wrote:

On Thu, 08 Jul 2004 01:53:20 GMT, "jon d'souza^eva"
wrote:

Hi

What you have there looks like a Nuremburg Jetton, And if I am not
mistaken it is a Hans Krauwinckel Type (1586 - 1635)

Hope this helps

Pete



Hi,

I recently bought a bag of coin and token oddments. I've managed to identify
all but two; this is one of them:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dsouzae...n/unknown1.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dsouzae...n/unknown2.jpg

It weighs a mere 1.6 grams and is about 15 mm across.

I know nothing about gold coins (I specialise in copper), but this looks
like gold to me (it's certainly a different colour to my many "in memory of
the good old days" tokens!).

Can anyone identify this for me?

Thanks a lot,

Jon




 




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