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Defective Seeburg Red Head Cartridge Needles



 
 
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  #1  
Old May 10th 11, 04:29 PM posted to alt.collecting.juke-boxes
Frederick Camporeale
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default Defective Seeburg Red Head Cartridge Needles

I recently rebuilt both the amp and selection receiver on a Seeburg
Model JL. The Jukebox had the usual very low volume problem. The Red
Head PC cartridge had original nail head straight needles with the
original Seeburg logo on them, vintage but old and in need of
replacement.

I ordered the newer style "L" shaped needles 4726-D7 made by
Phanstiehl a Swiss company, currently they are the only available
needle option for the Seeburg Red Head cartridge. I purchased needles
from a reputable US Distributor at a cost of $40

I did a complete rebuild on the amp, installed new caps, new tubes and
yes crisp new "L" shaped needles. I could hardly wait to play that
first record, set volume at the half way point, made my selection,
volume seemed a lot better but still sounding somewhat on the low side
I cranked her up, and up, and then up all the way...WTF! volume
seemed to be only about half of what it should be, improved over the
original scenario but lacking to say the least.

I must have screwed something up when soldering in those new caps, so
back to the bench with the amp, checked and rechecked all the caps,
checked every single resistor, had all tubes checked, removed some
resistors out of the circuit to make sure they were within tolerance,
all good, all caps correct...so what's left...weak transformer maybe?
None of the above.

It turns out that there are a batch of needles being sold that are
simply defective, problem seems to be with the reproduction of the
original Astatic mold or the needle material itself. I'm posting this
feedback with hopes of saving somebody else from going through the
same madness.

I placed the old original needles into my cartridge and BAM! Volume,
Bass like out of the factory. Just to be sure, tried my Red Head with
the new needles in my friends HFR100 and it cut the volume on that
Juke in half, definitely a problem with the needles. I managed to
find a pair of NOS Astatic SE-100-1D which are awesome, problem
solved.

I'm amazed at all the excuses for the defective needle product, like
the volume should be okay for home use, well yeah I get that excuse
but who really has any 50's Seeburgs out on location, LMFAO
Bottomline, do not purchase, wait for the problem to be resolved,
maybe this post will speed up that process.



Ads
  #2  
Old May 10th 11, 06:20 PM posted to alt.collecting.juke-boxes
John Robertson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 672
Default Defective Seeburg Red Head Cartridge Needles

Frederick Camporeale wrote:
I recently rebuilt both the amp and selection receiver on a Seeburg
Model JL. The Jukebox had the usual very low volume problem. The Red
Head PC cartridge had original nail head straight needles with the
original Seeburg logo on them, vintage but old and in need of
replacement.

I ordered the newer style "L" shaped needles 4726-D7 made by
Phanstiehl a Swiss company, currently they are the only available
needle option for the Seeburg Red Head cartridge. I purchased needles
from a reputable US Distributor at a cost of $40

...
It turns out that there are a batch of needles being sold that are
simply defective, problem seems to be with the reproduction of the
original Astatic mold or the needle material itself. I'm posting this
feedback with hopes of saving somebody else from going through the
same madness.

I placed the old original needles into my cartridge and BAM! Volume,
Bass like out of the factory. Just to be sure, tried my Red Head with
the new needles in my friends HFR100 and it cut the volume on that
Juke in half, definitely a problem with the needles. I managed to
find a pair of NOS Astatic SE-100-1D which are awesome, problem
solved.

I'm amazed at all the excuses for the defective needle product, like
the volume should be okay for home use, well yeah I get that excuse
but who really has any 50's Seeburgs out on location, LMFAO
Bottomline, do not purchase, wait for the problem to be resolved,
maybe this post will speed up that process.




The "L" shaped needles were ALWAYS quieter than the stock straight ones.
This was true in the 70s as much as it is now. The "L" shape was to
allow for reasonable flexibility on stereo records, however this also
made the needle less responsive and thus quieter than originals.

Sorry, as far as I know there is no cure, unless you get the straight
needles. Perhaps you can modify the feedback on the amp to get some more
gain - cutting the feedback resistor does give more gain, but you have
to resolder it if you use straight stylus.

John :-#)#

--
(Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
  #3  
Old May 10th 11, 08:06 PM posted to alt.collecting.juke-boxes
freeplayer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2
Default Defective Seeburg Red Head Cartridge Needles

On May 10, 1:20*pm, John Robertson wrote:
Frederick Camporeale wrote:
I recently rebuilt both the amp and selection receiver on a Seeburg
Model JL. *The Jukebox had the usual very low volume problem. The Red
Head PC cartridge had original nail head straight needles with the
original Seeburg logo on them, vintage but old and in need of
replacement.


I ordered the newer style "L" shaped needles 4726-D7 made by
Phanstiehl a Swiss company, currently they are the only available
needle option for the Seeburg Red Head cartridge. *I purchased needles
from a reputable US Distributor at a cost of $40


...
It turns out that there are a batch of needles being sold that are
simply defective, problem seems to be with the reproduction of the
original Astatic mold or the needle material itself. *I'm posting this
feedback with hopes of saving somebody else from going through the
same madness.


I placed the old original needles into my cartridge and BAM! Volume,
Bass like out of the factory. *Just to be sure, tried my Red Head with
the new needles in my friends HFR100 and it cut the volume on that
Juke in half, definitely a problem with the needles. *I managed to
find a pair of NOS Astatic SE-100-1D which are awesome, problem
solved.


I'm amazed at all the excuses for the defective needle product, like
the volume should be okay for home use, well yeah I get that excuse
but who really has any 50's Seeburgs out on location, LMFAO
Bottomline, do not purchase, wait for the problem to be resolved,
maybe this post will speed up that process.


The "L" shaped needles were ALWAYS quieter than the stock straight ones.
This was true in the 70s as much as it is now. The "L" shape was to
allow for reasonable flexibility on stereo records, however this also
made the needle less responsive and thus quieter than originals.

Sorry, as far as I know there is no cure, unless you get the straight
needles. Perhaps you can modify the feedback on the amp to get some more
gain - cutting the feedback resistor does give more gain, but you have
to resolder it if you use straight stylus.

John :-#)#

--
* * (Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup)
* John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
* Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
* * * * * * * * * * *www.flippers.com
* * * *"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."



Hi John,
Thanks for your input. Now to be fair, let me state that this issue
is not noticed by everyone. In my research I learned that most die
hard enthusiasts will return these needles for a refund. I fall into
this category. Not all needles are returned which tells me there is a
sector of Jukebox owners who are okay with it or don't know any
better.

My original post was a comparison regarding output of two different
sets of the newer "L" shaped needles, not old nail heads to newer "L"
shaped. I have tried two different sets of the newer style needles,
both are "L" shaped needles.

The first set was made by Phansteihl, and I have confirmed that these
are the newer "L" shaped needles produced within the last 2-3 years as
a replacement for older "L" shaped needles that were made by Astatic
who went out of business years ago.

I compared both the older Astatic NOS needles to current needles by
Phansteihl. My post indicates that I switched older Astatic "L"
needles out of another Red Head into my Red Head and the volume
problem was resolved to my satisfaction.

I really appreciate your suggestion on boosting gain, not sure I
pinpointed the correct resistor but I should mention
that I removed a 1K watt resistor soldered from RCA Jack input,
leading to pin 9 on the 5879 Tube, replaced this 1K resistor with a
straight wire back over to pin 9 on 5879. It made no difference in
boosting the volume with newer needles, so I checked it with my OHM
meter and resoldered to it's original configuration.

The original straight nail head needles helped me discover the sound
issue but not resolve it totally because A. this style needle is no
longer available
B. they are not friendly to the record surface. The real issue for me
is between two different sets of newer "L" shaped needles, NOS Astatic
and Phanstiehl. I was very happy with the sound on NOS Astatci, but
extremely disappointed with the "L" needle sound produced by
Phanstiehl.

In closing, two very well Seeburg educated hobbyists enlightened me on
what happened. Apparently the original mold by Astatic was
destroyed. Phansteil retooled to produce a similar product, mold was
off by position of the pick up on the backside of needle, quality
control was not checked and the sound produced by the Phansteihl "L"
product does not compare to the sound produced with the older Astatic
"L" stylus. They look alike but don't sound alike. IMHO
  #4  
Old May 10th 11, 08:48 PM posted to alt.collecting.juke-boxes
John Robertson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 672
Default Defective Seeburg Red Head Cartridge Needles

freeplayer wrote:
On May 10, 1:20 pm, John Robertson wrote:
Frederick Camporeale wrote:
I recently rebuilt both the amp and selection receiver on a Seeburg
Model JL. The Jukebox had the usual very low volume problem. The Red
Head PC cartridge had original nail head straight needles with the
original Seeburg logo on them, vintage but old and in need of
replacement.
I ordered the newer style "L" shaped needles 4726-D7 made by
Phanstiehl a Swiss company, currently they are the only available
needle option for the Seeburg Red Head cartridge. I purchased needles
from a reputable US Distributor at a cost of $40
...
It turns out that there are a batch of needles being sold that are
simply defective, problem seems to be with the reproduction of the
original Astatic mold or the needle material itself. I'm posting this
feedback with hopes of saving somebody else from going through the
same madness.
I placed the old original needles into my cartridge and BAM! Volume,
Bass like out of the factory. Just to be sure, tried my Red Head with
the new needles in my friends HFR100 and it cut the volume on that
Juke in half, definitely a problem with the needles. I managed to
find a pair of NOS Astatic SE-100-1D which are awesome, problem
solved.
I'm amazed at all the excuses for the defective needle product, like
the volume should be okay for home use, well yeah I get that excuse
but who really has any 50's Seeburgs out on location, LMFAO
Bottomline, do not purchase, wait for the problem to be resolved,
maybe this post will speed up that process.

The "L" shaped needles were ALWAYS quieter than the stock straight ones.
This was true in the 70s as much as it is now. The "L" shape was to
allow for reasonable flexibility on stereo records, however this also
made the needle less responsive and thus quieter than originals.

Sorry, as far as I know there is no cure, unless you get the straight
needles. Perhaps you can modify the feedback on the amp to get some more
gain - cutting the feedback resistor does give more gain, but you have
to resolder it if you use straight stylus.

John :-#)#

--
(Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."



Hi John,
Thanks for your input. Now to be fair, let me state that this issue
is not noticed by everyone. In my research I learned that most die
hard enthusiasts will return these needles for a refund. I fall into
this category. Not all needles are returned which tells me there is a
sector of Jukebox owners who are okay with it or don't know any
better.

My original post was a comparison regarding output of two different
sets of the newer "L" shaped needles, not old nail heads to newer "L"
shaped. I have tried two different sets of the newer style needles,
both are "L" shaped needles.

The first set was made by Phansteihl, and I have confirmed that these
are the newer "L" shaped needles produced within the last 2-3 years as
a replacement for older "L" shaped needles that were made by Astatic
who went out of business years ago.

I compared both the older Astatic NOS needles to current needles by
Phansteihl. My post indicates that I switched older Astatic "L"
needles out of another Red Head into my Red Head and the volume
problem was resolved to my satisfaction.

I really appreciate your suggestion on boosting gain, not sure I
pinpointed the correct resistor but I should mention
that I removed a 1K watt resistor soldered from RCA Jack input,
leading to pin 9 on the 5879 Tube, replaced this 1K resistor with a
straight wire back over to pin 9 on 5879. It made no difference in
boosting the volume with newer needles, so I checked it with my OHM
meter and resoldered to it's original configuration.

The original straight nail head needles helped me discover the sound
issue but not resolve it totally because A. this style needle is no
longer available
B. they are not friendly to the record surface. The real issue for me
is between two different sets of newer "L" shaped needles, NOS Astatic
and Phanstiehl. I was very happy with the sound on NOS Astatci, but
extremely disappointed with the "L" needle sound produced by
Phanstiehl.

In closing, two very well Seeburg educated hobbyists enlightened me on
what happened. Apparently the original mold by Astatic was
destroyed. Phansteil retooled to produce a similar product, mold was
off by position of the pick up on the backside of needle, quality
control was not checked and the sound produced by the Phansteihl "L"
product does not compare to the sound produced with the older Astatic
"L" stylus. They look alike but don't sound alike. IMHO


Ah, now that may well be relevant to the discussion. I was talking about
the old Astatic "L" needles, not having tried the new Phansteihl. Made
the assumption (oops - my bad!) that Phansteihl would not make that sort
of error - but can see how it would happen...

Thanks for the background on the problem! Live & learn...

John :-#)#

--
(Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
 




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