If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Coin grading/authentication services -- periodic post
What I have gleaned recently from this group but haven't verified with PCGS,
is that PCGS somehow "guarantees" its grade so if the coin turns out to be a loser, they will compensate you. If that's the case, do the other services do this, too? If this is the case with PCGS (haven't waded through all the wonderful things they have sent me, yet), then that gives me a measure of confidence in them from that alone, something like having "insurance" the coin is what they say, and particularly since they put out a price guide on the value of a given coin, I would think that would be your compensation for a misgraded one. "Reid Goldsborough" wrote in message ... What follows is a distillation of many people's opinions and observations, including my own. Additions and corrections are welcomed. This document is copyrighted -- please don't republish elsewhere. HMTL version available he http://rg.ancients.info/guide. Coin grading/authentication services -- periodic post - - - IN A NUTSHELL: Slabs can provide a measure of security when buying expensive coins, but some grading companies grade considerably more liberally than others, which can cause unsuspecting buyers to pay considerably more for a coin than they would otherwise. - - - "Buy the coin, not the slab" is an old, and true, numismatic maxim. Evaluate the coin yourself. Even the top grading services listed below make mistakes, occasionally overgrading coins or slabbing problem coins. All the services "market grade." They grade a coin according to its technical wear, using industry-accepted standards epitomized by those published in the book Official A.N.A. Grading Standards for United States Coins and the book Photograde: A Photographic Grading Guide for United States Coins. And they subjectively factor in the coin's eye appeal. They weigh positive eye appeal factors such as luster and toning and negative eye appeal factors such as scratches and spots, all of which affect a coin's market value. A grading service's evaluation of a coin's market appeal, though, may differ from your own. In the minds of some, the grading services give too little weight to spots and stains and too much weight to scratches and dings. The grading services also favor "originality." If a coin looks as if it hasn't been cleaned, they let other things slide, and it if looks as if it has been cleaned, they're more likely to bodybag it. Yet the grading services support the cleaning of coins, if it's done properly, that is, if it doesn't damage the coin. One grading service, NGC, works closely with a coin cleaning service, NCS (see details below under NGC). The grading services are also biased toward provenance. If a rich, well-known collector once owned the coin, they often grade it more leniently. All the mainstream grading services offer guarantees that supposedly protect you if you buy a coin in one of their slabs and the coin turns out to be a lower grade than the grade on the slab's label or the coin has a problem. You're able to resubmit the coin (depending on the grading service, you may still have to pay the regular grading fee), and if the grading service agrees that the coin was overgraded or has a problem, it will refund money to you, typically the difference between the market value of coin as it was graded and the actual market value. Occasionally, resubmissions like this generate a sizable refund from a grading company. More often than not, according to anecdotal reports, the grading companies don't change their minds. The biggest problem with the established, mainstream grading services is that their standards sometimes appear to be arbitrary and inconsistent. You can resubmit the same coin different times and receive different grades each time. These standards also appear to be loosening over time, creating an incentive for collectors and dealers to crack out coins from old slabs and spend more money reslabbing them. Anecdotal reports indicate that coins submitted using a grading service's most expensive option -- one-day service -- tend to be graded more generously than coins submitted though less expensive options. There doesn't seem to be anything, however, to the rumor that the legitimate services favor large dealers who submit lots of coins, giving their coins higher grades than those of others. Despite these problems, all told, the top grading services do provide value. They provide a measure of security that a coin is authentic, that it hasn't been tampered with, and that it has market appeal, which can be worth the premium that you typically pay for slabbed coins. Also, the slabs themselves can be an attractive way to store coins. All told, slabs can be particularly appropriate for older or more valuable specimens or for those collectors creating "registry sets" with newer coins. First-Tier Services in Terms of Market Acceptance PCGS (Professional Coin Grading Service) http://www.pcgs.com 800-447-8848 * PCGS-graded coins have highest retail value of any grading company, according to the Coin Dealer Newsletter. * Along with NGC, ranked "superior" in a 2002 survey of PNG (Professional Numismatists Guild) and ICTA (Industry Council for Tangible Assets) members in terms of grading accuracy and ability to detect altered, repaired, damaged, cleaned, and counterfeit coins (http://pngdealers.com/public/surveyresults2002.cfm). * Coins in older slabs generally graded more conservatively and worth more. Newest PCGS slabs have blue label; green label older; dot-matrix printed label older still. Detailed breakdown with approximate dates: 1. Light blue label, with barcode, with coin and series numbers: 3/02-date 2. Light blue label, no barcode, with coin and series number: 1/99-2/02 3. Light blue label, no barcode, no coin and series numbers: 11/98-12/98 4. Green label, serial number starts at right of left edge of barcode: mid 1995-11/98 5. Green (yellow through blue), label serial number starts at left of left edge of barcode: 1/90-mid 1995 6. Slab within frame, doily label: 11/89-12/89 7. Slab within frame, off-white label: 9/89-11/89 8. Small slabs: 1986-9/89 * Net grades (lowers a coin's grade for minor problems) but does not note it on the holder. * Bodybags (doesn't grade) problem coins (major problems) -- no refund of fee. * With regular service, coins are initially graded by two graders independent of one another. If there's disagreement, a third grader grades the coin. If the third grader agrees with one of the other two graders, the coin receives that grade. If not, sometimes the grading is averaged, sometimes the graders reevaluate the coin. After these initial evaluations, the grading of the coin-in-slab is verified. Between 2% and 4% of coins are regraded at this point. A final verification ensures that slab insert information is correct. * Charges $30 for pre-1970 coins for 30-day turnaround, plus shipping and insurance. * Registered eBay users can submit to PCGS at http://pcgs.com/ebay (click on Submission Center). * Guarantee: PCGS, unlike NGC, ANACS, ICG, and SEGS, is not specific about its guarantee at its Web site. On the phone, a customer service rep said if you buy a PCGS-graded coin and feel PCGS overgraded it, you can submit it to PCGS for re-examination. Unlike with NGC and ICG, however, you're charged the regular grading fee for this re-examination. If PCGS determines that the actual grade is lower than the grade on the slab, it will work with you, either paying you the difference between the fair market value of the coin at the re-examination grade and the fair market value at the grade originally assigned by PCGS or buying the coin outright from you. NGC (Numismatic Guaranty Corporation of America) http://www.ngccoin.com 800-642-2646 * Along with PCGS, ranked "superior" in a 2002 survey of PNG (Professional Numismatists Guild) and ICTA (Industry Council for Tangible Assets) members in terms of grading accuracy and ability to detect altered, repaired, damaged, cleaned, and counterfeit coins (http://pngdealers.com/public/surveyresults2002.cfm). * Can be more difficult to get less-than-perfect circulated coins in an NGC slab than a PCGS slab, depending on the series. * Newest slabs have fine perforation at bottom of label and small rounded square hologram on back; older slabs have full-width hologram. * Net grades but does not note it on the holder. * Bodybags problem coins -- no refund of fee. * Offers coin cleaning service through NCS (Numismatic Conservation Service) at http://www.ncscoin.com. * Charges $28 for coins over $300 with 12-day turnaround; $15 for coins under $300 for 21-day turnaround with 5 coin minimum, plus shipping and insurance. * Registered eBay users can submit to NGC and get a 10% rebate credited to their eBay account at http://www.ngccoin.com/ebay_ngcvalue.cfm. * Any ANA member can submit directly to NGC through this Web page: http://www.ngccoin.com/ana_welcome.htm. * Guarantee: If you buy an NGC-graded coin and feel NGC overgraded it, you can submit it to NGC for re-examination for free. If NGC determines that the actual grade is lower than the grade on the slab, it will, at NGC's option, either replace the coin for one at the originally assigned grade or pay you the difference between the fair market value of the coin at the re-examination grade and the fair market value at the grade originally assigned by NGC, with the fair market value determined by NGC using "reliable current market information," which it says do not include Internet auctions/sales. Second-Tier Services in Terms of Market Acceptance ANACS (Amos Certification Service) http://www.anacs.com 800-888-1861 * Ranked "average" in a 2002 survey of PNG (Professional Numismatists Guild) and ICTA (Industry Council for Tangible Assets) members in terms of grading accuracy and "superior" in ability to detect altered, repaired, damaged, cleaned, and counterfeit coins (http://pngdealers.com/public/surveyresults2002.cfm). * Regarded as more liberal with grading in general than PCGS or NGC. * Good choice for problem coins. Notes problem on slab label and gives both technical and net grade. Sometimes, however, problems noted on the slab can be more visible than the problems on the coin itself. * Physical slab holders are smaller and less attractive than slabs of other mainstream grading services. * Only mainstream grading service that offers an authentication-only option, though it doesn't mention this on its Web site or charge any less for this. (You check a box on the submission form.) * Provides helpful service at national coin shows, informally grading and authenticating your coins, though it doesn't guarantee that you'd receive same grades if you formally submitted the same coins. * Charges $12 + $10 for return shipping and insurance = $22 + $9 extra for five-day service = $31. * Without five-day service, turnaround five to six weeks. * Authenticates, grades, and slabs ancient coins, though the slabbing of ancients isn't accepted by most of the ancient coin community. * Guarantee: If you buy a gold or silver ANACS-graded coin and feel ANACS overgraded it, you can submit it to ANACS for re-examination for a $15 fee. If ANACS determines that the actual grade is lower than the grade on the slab, it will refund your $15 fee and pay you the difference between the fair market value of the coin at the re-examination grade and the fair market value at the grade originally assigned by ANACS, using "the most accurate pricing guide(s) as determined by ANACS." On the phone, a customer service rep said that another option you have is to request that ANACS buy the coin outright from you. ICG (Independent Coin Grading Co.) http://www.icgcoin.com 877-221-4424 * Ranked "average" in a 2002 survey of PNG (Professional Numismatists Guild) and ICTA (Industry Council for Tangible Assets) members in terms of grading accuracy and ability to detect altered, repaired, damaged, cleaned, and counterfeit coins (http://pngdealers.com/public/surveyresults2002.cfm). * Uses Intercept Shield slabs designed to protect coins from toning and other environmental damage (dealers can opt out of using Intercept Shield technology). * Criticized for being too liberal with PR-70 and MS-70 grades and for overgrading modern coins. * Net grades but does not note it on the holder. * Bodybags problem coins -- credits fee to your account with exception of $5 processing fee. * Authenticates, grades, and slabs ancient coins, though the slabbing of ancients isn't accepted by most of the ancient coin community. * Charges $30 for coins over $300 for nondealers for 15-day turnaround, plus shipping and insurance; $15 for coins under $300 for 21-day turnaround with 5-coin minimum, plus shipping and insurance. * Guarantee: If you buy a non-copper ICG-graded coin and feel ICG overgraded it, you can submit it to ICG for re-examination for free. If ICG determines that the actual grade is lower than the grade on the slab, it will, at ICG's option, either replace the coin for one at the originally assigned grade or pay you the difference between the fair market value of the coin at the re-examination grade and the fair market value at the grade originally assigned by ICG, with the fair market value "determined solely by ICG." Third-Tier Services in Terms of Market Acceptance SEGS (Sovereign Entities Grading Service) http://www.segsgrading.com 888-768-7261 * Ranked "poor" in a 2002 survey of PNG (Professional Numismatists Guild) and ICTA (Industry Council for Tangible Assets) members in terms of grading accuracy and "average" in ability to detect altered, repaired, damaged, cleaned, and counterfeit coins (http://pngdealers.com/public/surveyresults2002.cfm). * Regarded as more liberal with its grading in general than the above grading services. * Attractive slabs. * Does not net grade. * With problem coins, notes problem (said to be fairly picky in noting problems) and gives technical grade. * Charges $15 + $.75 return shipping + $9 insurance ($600 coin) = $24.75. * Turnaround 15 to 20 working days. * Option: Prescreen fee is only $5 instead of normal $10 (authenticates and grades but doesn't slab). * Guarantee: If you buy a SEGS-graded coin within six months after SEGS graded it and feel SEGS overgraded it, you can submit it to SEGS for re-examination for a $20 fee. If SEGS determines that the actual grade is lower than the grade on the slab, it will refund your $20 fee and pay you the difference between the fair market value of the coin at the re-examination grade and the fair market value at the grade originally assigned by SEGS, as determined by SEGS "based on recent actual transactions in the market place for coins of that type, variety, error, and/or grade." PCI (Photo-Certified Coin Institute) http://www.chattanooga.net/pci 800-277-2646 * Ranked "poor" in a 2002 survey of PNG (Professional Numismatists Guild) and ICTA (Industry Council for Tangible Assets) members in terms of grading accuracy and "average" in ability to detect altered, repaired, damaged, cleaned, and counterfeit coins (http://pngdealers.com/public/surveyresults2002.cfm). * Recently changed ownership (and raised rates). With new ownership, grading standards appear to have become more liberal. Still least expensive mainstream grading service, though some people now regard PCI as being out of the mainstream. * Gold-bordered slabs are newer ones; green-bordered slabs are older ones. Grading of earlier green-bordered slabs with 10- and 14- digit serial numbers said to be more conservative that last green-bordered slabs with 9-digit serial numbers. * Does not net grade. * With problem coins, includes red-bordered label, notes problem, and gives technical grade. * Charges $10 + $.75 return shipping + $10 for insurance ($600 coin) = $20.75. * Turnaround five days. * Guarantee: PCI makes no mention of any guarantee at its Web site. But on the phone, a customer service rep said if you buy a PCI-graded coin and feel PCI overgraded it, you can submit it to PCI for re-examination at no charge. If PCI determines that the actual grade is lower than the grade on the slab, it will pay you the difference between the market value of the coin at the re-examination grade and the market value at the grade originally assigned by PCI, with market value determined by Greysheet Bid. Other Grading Services New grading services pop up all the time. Some may be bona fide attempts to create legitimate, industry-respected operations. Nonetheless, caveat emptor (buyer beware). Some of these services appear to be deliberate attempts to fool inexperienced collectors by "certifying" the practice of overgrading, grading coins far more leniently than published standards such as those in the Official A.N.A. Grading Standards for United States Coins and Photograde: A Photographic Grading Guide. Many of these services are "self slabbers"-- small operations run by a single coin dealer and providing no more security or market value than any other dealer marking a grade in pencil on a 2x2 cardboard coin holder. For specifics about individual services, check out their Web site. ACG (Accugrade or ASA Accugrade) http://www.asa-accugrade.com * Large operation in business since 1984 that many people feel uses more liberal grading standards than the above grading services and those published in both the ANA and Photograde grading guidelines. * Ranked "unacceptable" in a 2002 survey of PNG (Professional Numismatists Guild) and ICTA (Industry Council for Tangible Assets) members in terms of grading accuracy and ability to detect altered, repaired, damaged, cleaned, and counterfeit coins (http://pngdealers.com/public/surveyresults2002.cfm). * In deciding a Code of Ethics Violation Complaint in March 2003, the American Numismatic Association Board of Governors issued the following statements as part of its findings: "ASA Accugrade does not clearly identify, particularly for the consumer to whom ASA Accugrade coins are sold, that ASA Accugrade coins do not conform to the industry accepted standards.... A significantly larger percentage of grading errors appear to be made by ASA Accugrade then by other grading services.... The [ANA] Board ... believes that [ASA Accugrade] standards can mislead the end consumer with regard to the value of the numismatic item being purchased." * One collector's experience (you can view the entire message at Google Groups, http://groups.google.com): "I sent six ACG graded Mercury dimes to ANACS. I broke them out of the holders. 1917S ACG MS-62 FB, ANACS Cleaned Net AU-55. 1919 ACG MS-63, ANACS Cleaned Net AU-55. 1924S ACG MS-63 FB, ANACS Scratched Net MS-60. 1925D ACG MS-62 FB, ANACS AU-58. 1943S ACG MS-67 FB, ANACS MS-64 FB. I really learned a lesson." * One dealer's experience (you can view the entire message at Google Groups, http://groups.google.com): "A High Relief Saint grading ACG MS-65 was offered to me at our shop along with other high-powered coins, all in ACG holders. After explaining the economic reality that his coins were worth about one-fourth of what he was led to believe, he allowed us to submit them to PCGS first, for crossover ... all body bagged. Then they went off to NGC ... all body bagged. Next ICG ... all body bagged. Then he decided to bite the bullet that we were right and his coins had problems, so we sent them to ANACS. Not surprising to us, but horrifying to him, every coin passed off as mint state by ACG was a problem coin. The High Relief came back MS Detail, Net XF-40, Tooled, Cleaned." * ACG Packaging, at http://www.acgpackaging.com, lets you assign your own grades to slabbed coins and to create your own slab label. * ACG has its supporters. According to one numismatic writer, "Alan Hager [ACG founder] has built a profitable business by supplying to people something they want at a price they are willing to pay. That is in and of itself the noblest human endeavor." NTC (Numistrust Corp.) http://www.numistrust.com * Appears to grade liberally, despite claims on its Web site of grading conservatively. * In an e-mail message, the president of NTC said he recently joined the company and is working to improve the company's grading standards and reputation. DCGS (Digital Coin Grading Service) http://www.digitalcoingrading.com * Advertises that its slab is the only one that lets you see the edge of coins. MCGS (Modern Coin Grading Service) http://www.moderncoingrading.com * Slabs let you see edge of coin. NCG (National Coin Grading) * Name can be confused with NGC. PCS (Preferred Customer Service) * Name can be confused with PCGS. PCGA (Premier Coin Grading and Authentication) * Name can be confused with PCGS. ACGS (American Coin Grading Service) http://acgsinc.hypermart.net * Name can be confused with ACG. NSCGS (New Standard Coin Grading Service) * Grades both sides of a coin separately and provides various cameo designations for proof coins. GCS (Global Certification Services) http://www.globalcertified.com * Provides a "story" about the coin on the slab's label. TCGS (Twenty-first Century Grading Service) http://www.tcgs.org TCTS (Tom's Coins Technical Services) TruGrade Service International Numismatic Grading Service Foreign Coins ICCS (International Coin Certification Service) 416-488-8620 * Small coin-grading service in Toronto respected in the Canadian market. Ancient Coins ACCS (Ancient Coin Certification Service) http://www.davidrsear.com/certification.html * Service of David Sear, author of the Greek Coins and Their Values, Roman Coins and Their Values, and other standard ancient numismatic attribution works. * Authenticates and attributes but does not grade or slab. Coins are accompanied by black-and-white photo and certificate. * Charges $30 for basic service or $40 for detailed service. Detailed service includes extra information about the coin's historical significance. * Turnaround two to three weeks. With express service, which costs extra $15 per coin (three coin maximum), turnaround time is three working days. * Does not offer guarantee of coin's authenticity. ICG (Independent Coin Grading Co.) http://www.icgcoin.com 877-221-4424 * See above description. ANACS (Amos Certification Service) http://www.anacs.com 800-888-1861 * See above description. IBSCC (International Bureau for the Suppression of Counterfeit Coins) http://www.iapn.ch * Service of the International Association of Professional Numismatists. * Based in Switzerland. * Authentication available only for dealer members of IAPN (International Association of Professional Numismatists). Works with more than 100 outside experts. * No certificate issued. * Does not offer guarantee of coin's authenticity. The British Museum, Department of Coins and Medals http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/coins * Authenticates. * Charges only return postage. * No certificate issued. * Does not offer guarantee of coin's authenticity. -- Coin Collecting: Consumer Guide: http://rg.ancients.info/guide Glomming: Coin Connoisseurship: http://rg.ancients.info/glom Bogos: Counterfeit Coins: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos |
Ads |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Thanks very much!
"Bob Flaminio" wrote in message ... Linda wrote: What I have gleaned recently from this group but haven't verified with PCGS, is that PCGS somehow "guarantees" its grade so if the coin turns out to be a loser, they will compensate you. If that's the case, do the other services do this, too? The other three of the "Big 4" (NGC, ANACS, ICG) have similar policies. No other grading service is worth even considering, IMHO. -- Bob |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
|
#4
|
|||
|
|||
|
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Reid Goldsborough wrote:
This is what I heard. Typically they just stick with their originally grade. Every once in a while though, they refund somebody a lot of money for some high-visibility coin that they admit to erring with, getting a lot of publicity in the process. Typical Goldsborough non-sensical sweeping generalization hiding behind the phrase "what I heard". ++++++++++ Phil DeMayo - always here for my fellow Stooge When bidding online always sit on your helmet Just say NO to counterfeits |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
"Aram H. Haroutunian" wrote:
Until today, with the mention of NGC, Ira reported success with PCGS and I reported failure with ANACS. My experience with ANACS was doubly egregious because I was encouraged by an ANACS grader at a show to resubmit, for an additional $25 which just represented a twisting of the knife for me. Based on just what I have read here, Reid's take makes sense. Let's see....here's what he said: "This is what I heard. Typically they just stick with their originally grade. Every once in a while though, they refund somebody a lot of money for some high-visibility coin that they admit to erring with, getting a lot of publicity in the process." The two returns Ira mentioned were hardly "high visibility" coins they made good for as a publicity stunt. The coin I was involved with was a 1923-D Peace Dollar that NGC originally graded MS65. Once again, hardly the "high visibility" coins Reid claims they sometimes "admit to erring with"...just for publicity. I stand by my take on the Goldborough character's generalization. ++++++++++ Phil DeMayo - always here for my fellow Stooge When bidding online always sit on your helmet Just say NO to counterfeits |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Bob Flaminio wrote:
Linda wrote: What I have gleaned recently from this group but haven't verified with PCGS, is that PCGS somehow "guarantees" its grade so if the coin turns out to be a loser, they will compensate you. If that's the case, do the other services do this, too? The other three of the "Big 4" (NGC, ANACS, ICG) have similar policies. I bought this coin holdered in an ICG slab about two years ago from a B&M auction. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/davewa...sc/ICG_obv.jpg 280K http://mywebpages.comcast.net/davewa...sc/ICG_rev.jpg 280K About 6 months after I bought it, I decided to take a really close look at the coin. To my dismay, I noticed that the reflective surfaces of the coin does not extend all the way to the devices. On the obverse, one area to look at is the area around the star directly in front of lady liberty's nose. On the reverse, the area around the letters "F" in "OF", and "A" in "AMERICA", the discontinuity can be readily observed. After talking to B&M, it was suggested that I send the coin in to ICG for a review. The coin was reviewed, and came back exactly as it was, without comments. The grade of MS64 stood. I suppose that the painted field didn't count for "altered surface", and since they didn't erroneously give the coin a PL designation, then it should be MS64, and MS64 it was. However, I have the feeling that if I should crack out the coin, I'd never be able to get the coin back into a holder (perhaps I'd have to send it to NCS first) Does anyone have thoughts about the "painting"? Should the surface not count as "altered"? Since ICG thinks that there's nothing wrong with holdering it as MS64, I guess MS64 it is, but somehow I feel funny about this coin knowing that the coin isn't natural in its appearance, yet it's in a holder... -- davewang202(at)yahoo(dot)com |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Pr: Baltimore Coin and Currency Convention - July 9-11, 2004 | EdKuszmar | General | 0 | June 29th 04 05:16 AM |
A coin I like but you probably won't | Bill Krummel | Coins | 11 | August 3rd 03 01:50 PM |
Help on telling repro | Linda | Coins | 11 | July 30th 03 02:03 AM |
Value Guides | Keith Tilley | Coins | 3 | July 21st 03 07:50 AM |
Coin returns and a question about toning | Bill Krummel | Coins | 28 | July 11th 03 02:09 AM |