Time to change the definition of "coin rotation"

Byron L. Reed wrote:

On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 00:18:12 GMT, Colin Kynoch
wrote:


Far easier for the notes to be different sizes.

Colin Kynoch


Far too expensive. Our entire system is geared to having same-sized notes.
We would have to re-machine our entire system and duplicate it seven-times
over. Granted that the Australians have a small enough circulation of
currency and enough make work programs to support such plans, but we in the
US have need for more efficient systems due simply to the scale of our
economy.


Australian notes have always been of different sizes for different
denominations.

So tell me Byron the US economy must have been devastated when you
changed from your larger note sizes to you current play money.


Besides, if you are interested in "far easier" there are many other
more-suitable alternatives to bank notes, such as stored-value cash cards
or electronic transactions, to assist the blind.


And tell me how a stored value card makes it easy for a blind person to
know how much money they have and whether they are being charged correctly?

With notes and coins they can easyly tell if they have been given the
correct change. A stored value card relies on the honesty of the vendor.

Colin KYnoch

On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 22:56:49 GMT, Colin Kynoch
wrote:

So tell me Byron the US economy must have been devastated when you
changed from your larger note sizes to you current play money.

You don't understand my point. The US has immense quantities of notes in
circulation -- all the same size. Because of this there is a great deal of
mechanization to process it geared to that particular size note for
production, distribution, circulation, and recovery.

Currently the production equipment can be used for every denomination of
note because the size is standard. Having 6 different sizes of currency
would require that many different web sizes, plate layouts, numbering
machines, cutting machines, bundling machines, and pallet patterns. In
addition, the amount of human capital invested would be extreme to monitor
the 6 different processes from a QA standpoint.

Once in circulation, the notes are accepted by many thousands of vending
machines that are built around a standard-sized note. It would be
impractical to expect businesses to retrofit this equipment. This same
problem extends to mundane, yet pervasive, situation like the millions of
cash register drawers that would need replacement, the storage trays used
at the banks, even the scheme of the vaults designed specifically for this
sized note. On the individual level, how many billions of dollars worth of
mens' wallets would need to be replaced to accommodate larger bills?

When the Federal Reserved collects the notes it processes them trough a
series of machines that examine the bills for re useability and
authenticity. These range from a simple matter of sensing damage to the
note, to detecting the precise magnetic fields present in a genuine note's
ink. These machines would have to exist separately for each denomination of
note. Moreover, the current machines and systems would have to be
maintained for years in order to handle the billions of US notes that would
dribble in over time.

The US was far from being devastated when the US changed to its current
size of note. It was done for a practical reason to conserve cotton
supplies for the effort to bail out the Commonwealth in WWI. Prior to
that, the notes were larger, but still of a standard size. The savings of
space, materiel, and labor was most certainly a real boon to the economy in
the for of increased productivity.

BLReed

To email me click he http://tinyurl.com/nd66
For collector coins and supplies at fair prices: http://tinyurl.com/pt9r
Cool things: http://www.byronreed.com/byrons_collections/default.htm
Talk bust coins: http://www.byronreed.com/phpBB2/index.php

On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 15:56:31 +0100, (Christian Feldhaus)
wrote:

Don't think that the scale of an ecomony is a decisive factor here. It's
rather something like tradition, or rather what people are used to. For
example, I don't think that having notes of the same size and (almost)
the same color would have been an option in Euroland. Guess it was not
even considered ...

Christian

Read my other post. By scale I mean the massive present infrastructure to
produce and process billions of outstanding US notes.

BLReed

To email me click he http://tinyurl.com/nd66
For collector coins and supplies at fair prices: http://tinyurl.com/pt9r
Cool things: http://www.byronreed.com/byrons_collections/default.htm
Talk bust coins: http://www.byronreed.com/phpBB2/index.php

On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 22:56:49 GMT, Colin Kynoch
wrote:

And tell me how a stored value card makes it easy for a blind person to
know how much money they have and whether they are being charged correctly?

With notes and coins they can easyly tell if they have been given the
correct change. A stored value card relies on the honesty of the vendor.

Colin KYnoch


What, you've never heard a talking cash machine? or seen a transaction
receipt output in braile? These technologies exist and are easily
adaptable to a cash card system and would be a wonderful addition to the
marketplace.

The much more likely event of vendor dishonesty is entering the incorrect
price in the first place, not making change. Technology can solve all
types of problems is you're willing to invest a little effort in finding an
efficient solution rather than one that suits your personal tastes.

BLReed

To email me click he http://tinyurl.com/nd66
For collector coins and supplies at fair prices: http://tinyurl.com/pt9r
Cool things: http://www.byronreed.com/byrons_collections/default.htm
Talk bust coins: http://www.byronreed.com/phpBB2/index.php

Byron L. Reed wrote:

On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 22:56:49 GMT, Colin Kynoch
wrote:


So tell me Byron the US economy must have been devastated when you
changed from your larger note sizes to you current play money.


You don't understand my point. The US has immense quantities of notes in
circulation -- all the same size. Because of this there is a great deal of
mechanization to process it geared to that particular size note for
production, distribution, circulation, and recovery.

Currently the production equipment can be used for every denomination of
note because the size is standard. Having 6 different sizes of currency
would require that many different web sizes, plate layouts, numbering
machines, cutting machines, bundling machines, and pallet patterns. In
addition, the amount of human capital invested would be extreme to monitor
the 6 different processes from a QA standpoint.


And these costs would be recouped extremely quickly if the US made
changes to polymer notes.

Due to the considerably longer lifespan of polymer notes, and the many
other benefits of using notes that aren't affected by the extremes of
weather and hard use.


Once in circulation, the notes are accepted by many thousands of vending
machines that are built around a standard-sized note. It would be
impractical to expect businesses to retrofit this equipment.


Tell me these vending machines, was there any changes needed when they
introduced the SBA dollar?

This also assumes that the machines haven't already been made with
different size notes in mind. I have been interested to see that we
have some US manufactured vending machines here in Australia and
remarkably they manage 5 different size notes without any problem.


This same
problem extends to mundane, yet pervasive, situation like the millions of
cash register drawers that would need replacement, the storage trays used
at the banks, even the scheme of the vaults designed specifically for this
sized note.


In Australia the cash register draws are all the same size too. Yet
amazingly they manage to be able to accomodate different size notes.

On the individual level, how many billions of dollars worth of
mens' wallets would need to be replaced to accommodate larger bills?


Now you are being ridiulous.

I understand that many Americans travel and the US is somewhat of an
anachronism in its persistence with all denoms being the same size, are
you suggesting that all Americans who travel are forced to buy new
wallets when the go overseas?

This particular argument is laughable.


When the Federal Reserved collects the notes it processes them trough a
series of machines that examine the bills for re useability and
authenticity. These range from a simple matter of sensing damage to the
note, to detecting the precise magnetic fields present in a genuine note's
ink. These machines would have to exist separately for each denomination of
note. Moreover, the current machines and systems would have to be
maintained for years in order to handle the billions of US notes that would
dribble in over time.


If the US decided to change to polymer currency (and the Federal Reserve
has had talks with NPA), the costs of change would be recouped quite
quickly. There are still 'paper' notes being turned in to banks in
Australia (I know because if I see them in a tellers draw I ask for them
and get them), this causes no great problems and when they only
'dribble' in there would be little need to maintain the machinery to
check for reusability, as they would be muted anyway. As for
authenticity the banks that received them would surely be checking for that.


The US was far from being devastated when the US changed to its current
size of note.


So are unliekly to be if any other changes are made.


It was done for a practical reason to conserve cotton
supplies for the effort to bail out the Commonwealth in WWI. Prior to
that, the notes were larger, but still of a standard size. The savings of
space, materiel, and labor was most certainly a real boon to the economy in
the for of increased productivity.


As would a change to polymer notes as there would be less maintenance
required on all not handling machinery as polymer doesn't shed itself or
pick up dirt anywhere near as much as 'paper' notes do. The notes last
many times longer therefore the costs of production are greatly reduced
and as a consequence the changeover costs for government would be
recouped reasonably quickly.

If it is cost to business that you have problems with you could do what
the Aussie government did when they changed to decimal currency and
compensate business for the cost of upgrading machines and equipment.

Yep the costs in the States would be higher than those in Australia, but
then the taxpayer base is proportionaly higher as well.


Colin Kynoch

Byron L. Reed wrote:

On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 22:56:49 GMT, Colin Kynoch
wrote:


And tell me how a stored value card makes it easy for a blind person to
know how much money they have and whether they are being charged correctly?

With notes and coins they can easyly tell if they have been given the
correct change. A stored value card relies on the honesty of the vendor.

Colin KYnoch



What, you've never heard a talking cash machine? or seen a transaction
receipt output in braile? These technologies exist and are easily
adaptable to a cash card system and would be a wonderful addition to the
marketplace.



And would be of a simialr cost if not more to implement than the changes
you considered so onerous in your previous post.


The much more likely event of vendor dishonesty is entering the incorrect
price in the first place, not making change. Technology can solve all
types of problems is you're willing to invest a little effort in finding an
efficient solution rather than one that suits your personal tastes.

And polymer notes are many times more efficient than paper ones.

the technology is there, the soplution has been found.

Colin Kynoch

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 00:10:49 GMT, Colin Kynoch
wrote:

What, you've never heard a talking cash machine? or seen a transaction
receipt output in braile? These technologies exist and are easily
adaptable to a cash card system and would be a wonderful addition to the
marketplace.



And would be of a simialr cost if not more to implement than the changes
you considered so onerous in your previous post.


Similar cost? Based upon what evidence? Cash register systems are
routinely replaced in the US as new technologies emerge to reduce revenue
loss at checkout. This is a bottom line cost at major retailers that is
budgeted for, and the marginal cost of implementing these improvements
would be practically zero as opposed to your solution which would require
the replacement of perfectly serviceable durable equipment.


The much more likely event of vendor dishonesty is entering the incorrect
price in the first place, not making change. Technology can solve all
types of problems is you're willing to invest a little effort in finding an
efficient solution rather than one that suits your personal tastes.

And polymer notes are many times more efficient than paper ones.

You have me confused with somebody else. I never said anywhere that I have
a problem with plastic notes or that they are inefficient. All I said was
that the notes being paper had nothing to do with the fact that a couple of
idiots accepted color photocopies without checking the security devices.
This same problem would exist with a changeover to plastic notes too, if
the same idiots failed to check the security devices.

I encourage the change to plastic notes if they can be economically
produced to work with existent infrastructure.

My only problem was with your idea that different denominations of notes
must be different sizes.


BLReed

To email me click he http://tinyurl.com/nd66
For collector coins and supplies at fair prices: http://tinyurl.com/pt9r
Cool things: http://www.byronreed.com/byrons_collections/default.htm
Talk bust coins: http://www.byronreed.com/phpBB2/index.php

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 00:09:04 GMT, Colin Kynoch
wrote:



Byron L. Reed wrote:

On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 22:56:49 GMT, Colin Kynoch
wrote:


So tell me Byron the US economy must have been devastated when you
changed from your larger note sizes to you current play money.


You don't understand my point. The US has immense quantities of notes in
circulation -- all the same size. Because of this there is a great deal of
mechanization to process it geared to that particular size note for
production, distribution, circulation, and recovery.

Currently the production equipment can be used for every denomination of
note because the size is standard. Having 6 different sizes of currency
would require that many different web sizes, plate layouts, numbering
machines, cutting machines, bundling machines, and pallet patterns. In
addition, the amount of human capital invested would be extreme to monitor
the 6 different processes from a QA standpoint.


And these costs would be recouped extremely quickly if the US made
changes to polymer notes.

When did I argue against plastic notes per se?



Due to the considerably longer lifespan of polymer notes, and the many
other benefits of using notes that aren't affected by the extremes of
weather and hard use.

I agree, but why must they be different sizes?



Once in circulation, the notes are accepted by many thousands of vending
machines that are built around a standard-sized note. It would be
impractical to expect businesses to retrofit this equipment.


Tell me these vending machines, was there any changes needed when they
introduced the SBA dollar?

Only for those vending companies who chose to invest in them. When these
companies realized that the SBA wouldn't circulate in their markets they
quickly abandoned retrofitting.



This also assumes that the machines haven't already been made with
different size notes in mind. I have been interested to see that we
have some US manufactured vending machines here in Australia and
remarkably they manage 5 different size notes without any problem.

I admit that the technology exists, but that doesn't mean that it's
practical. When you tell me that all current note-enabled US vending
machines can accept different sized notes without a retrofit, then I'll
cede this ONE point of the argument.



This same
problem extends to mundane, yet pervasive, situation like the millions of
cash register drawers that would need replacement, the storage trays used
at the banks, even the scheme of the vaults designed specifically for this
sized note.


In Australia the cash register draws are all the same size too. Yet
amazingly they manage to be able to accomodate different size notes.

Are all the drawers the same size? Are they all the same size as those
here in the US? Do Australian cashiers have the same money-handling habits
are US cashiers? Yours are assumptions without bases.


On the individual level, how many billions of dollars worth of
mens' wallets would need to be replaced to accommodate larger bills?


Now you are being ridiulous.

Am I?

100 Million adult american men multiplied by $20 = 2 BILLION DOLLARS

That doesn't even account for women's pocketbooks which I assume would be
vastly more expensive 100 million X $20 X 3 levels of dress X 4 seasons
worth of purses X 6 basic color and design schemes = 144 BILLION DOLLARS
(NOW I'm being "ridiulous")



I understand that many Americans travel and the US is somewhat of an
anachronism in its persistence with all denoms being the same size, are
you suggesting that all Americans who travel are forced to buy new
wallets when the go overseas?

This particular argument is laughable.

Forced, no? Travel is by definition a temporary situation and "many" is a
long way from being "sufficient."



When the Federal Reserved collects the notes it processes them trough a
series of machines that examine the bills for re useability and
authenticity. These range from a simple matter of sensing damage to the
note, to detecting the precise magnetic fields present in a genuine note's
ink. These machines would have to exist separately for each denomination of
note. Moreover, the current machines and systems would have to be
maintained for years in order to handle the billions of US notes that would
dribble in over time.


If the US decided to change to polymer currency (and the Federal Reserve
has had talks with NPA), the costs of change would be recouped quite
quickly.

There you go again with the plastic notes. I don't give a rip (or even a
no-rip) about the plastic notes. Please keep your arguing partners
straight.

There are still 'paper' notes being turned in to banks in
Australia (I know because if I see them in a tellers draw I ask for them
and get them), this causes no great problems and when they only
'dribble' in there would be little need to maintain the machinery to
check for reusability, as they would be muted anyway. As for
authenticity the banks that received them would surely be checking for that.


The US was far from being devastated when the US changed to its current
size of note.


So are unliekly to be if any other changes are made.

I don't know that I claimed that we would be devastated. That was your
word, not mine. All I claimed was that the cost of having differing sizes
notes would outweigh your perceived trivial benefits and sated
sensibilities. Frankly why you give a hoot about the sizes of our notes is
beyond my grasp. Do you belong to some secret society that identifies its
members by passing US notes or something? Maybe you traffic kangaroo parts
or something? Why so interested? I hate to even mention to you that we
have a strange combination of metric and fractional denominations and that
our 10¢ coin is smaller that our 1¢ and 5¢ coins. That's okay, though,
because the small dollar coins make up for it.



It was done for a practical reason to conserve cotton
supplies for the effort to bail out the Commonwealth in WWI. Prior to
that, the notes were larger, but still of a standard size. The savings of
space, materiel, and labor was most certainly a real boon to the economy in
the for of increased productivity.


As would a change to polymer notes as there would be less maintenance
required on all not handling machinery as polymer doesn't shed itself or
pick up dirt anywhere near as much as 'paper' notes do. The notes last
many times longer therefore the costs of production are greatly reduced
and as a consequence the changeover costs for government would be
recouped reasonably quickly.

Blah, Blah, Blah. Again with the plastic notes. I don't care about
plastic versus. paper.


If it is cost to business that you have problems with you could do what
the Aussie government did when they changed to decimal currency and
compensate business for the cost of upgrading machines and equipment.

Out of MY pocket? Since it's so important to you, why don't you convince
the Aussie government to pay for our machine upgrades out of YOUR tax
dollars.

That change was in 1966. I imagine that there were relatively few vending
machines then and there versus here and now. Besides, comparing the
complete changeover of a currency system to a change of format is not a
reasonable argument. I suspect that the Aussie government was persuaded by
factors other than your style preferences.


Yep the costs in the States would be higher than those in Australia, but
then the taxpayer base is proportionaly higher as well.

Having the taxpayer base is not a reasonable argument for spending the
bucks if they need not be spent.



Colin Kynoch


BLReed

To email me click he http://tinyurl.com/nd66
For collector coins and supplies at fair prices: http://tinyurl.com/pt9r
Cool things: http://www.byronreed.com/byrons_collections/default.htm
Talk bust coins: http://www.byronreed.com/phpBB2/index.php

Byron L. Reed clarifies by stating....

There you go again with the plastic notes. I don't give a rip (or even a
no-rip) about the plastic notes. Please keep your arguing partners straight.

And just in case the antipodean centipedean "thinks" he's confusing you with
me, understand that not one whit of what I said had anything to do with plastic
vs. paper either. He's got this stuck needle going on with polymer vs. plastic,
that he can't get over.

The manufacturer calls the notes polypropylene but he keeps chanting polymer,
as if it lends more science to the process.

I suspect that on a good day he wouldn't know his gluteus maximii from his
cubitum.

Always here for my fellow syngraphist or oenophile.
--=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=--

On 31 Dec 2003 13:50:41 GMT, rosit (Jim) wrote:

He's got this stuck needle going on with polymer vs. plastic,
that he can't get over.

The manufacturer calls the notes polypropylene but he keeps chanting polymer,
as if it lends more science to the process.

A similar situation exists between me and my mother. She has a number of
molded miniature houses and storefronts sitting along the edge a shelf.
I'm sure you've all seen this stuff at gift shops and the like.

When I first saw them I gave them a quick examination and stupidly asked
her when she had started collecting "plastic houses."

Man, did that **** her off something fierce! She shot back, "Those aren't
plastic --- THEY'RE RESIN!"

BLReed

To email me click he http://tinyurl.com/nd66
For collector coins and supplies at fair prices: http://tinyurl.com/pt9r
Cool things: http://www.byronreed.com/byrons_collections/default.htm
Talk bust coins: http://www.byronreed.com/phpBB2/index.php