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Sick of Dealers and Coins



 
 
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  #11  
Old August 27th 03, 01:24 PM
Eric Tillery
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On 26 Aug 2003 08:15:44 -0700, (Phil Barnhart) wrote:

[snip]

Many of these dealers were good ANA members, respected, and heavy Coin
World advertisers. Not a single one of them were ethical. One
well-known dealer eyed the Standing lib for several minutes, declared
it an "extra-fine" and offered me $900.


[snip]

Now come on. I am well known for calling out dishonest dealers, and have
taken a lot of flak for it. But I didn't just fall off the turnip truck, and apparently
from your post and the excerpt above, you are claiming there wasn't a single
dealer who was ethical and/or honest. I don't buy it, there is a lot in your story
that does not add up.
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  #12  
Old August 27th 03, 01:32 PM
Phil Barnhart
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Dondi,

I have provided people lists of the dealers; I even have had a phone
conference with two of the dealers and another ANA member who emailed
me about this post. These dealers confirmed my story. My question is
that why are you so quick to call me a liar when you don't know me?
Why not email me and ask me for more information? I am not trying to
sell anything. And why are several other collectors confirming my
experience while dealers like you so quick to call me a liar, stupid,
etc? Sort of my point? You have an extremely jaded view of people.

And you prove my point:

"$500+ profit is flat out guaranteed? Those coins would have never
made it past
my table, and I'd have turned the profit before I left the show,
probably
before I ate supper."

Facing someone with two raw coins and no knowledge, you immediately
think "$500+" profit. You don't suggest that they take it down to the
end of the hall and slab it. Your IMMEDIATE reaction is to take the
money and run like crazy. You can call it whatever you want. You can
say it is the seller's responsibity. You can make any excuse you
want. But you would brag about how a couple of rubes sold you a
valuable coin because they were clueless and trusted you to provide a
fair price including a reasonable markup. Stupid people. Smart
dealer. Sort of the attitude that has worn me out as a collector.


Dondi3
DONDI enterprises. BUY, SELL, TRADE. RARE COINS & PRECIOUS METALS
Member COINNET, CSNS, ANA, INA, MOON, ILNA.

  #13  
Old August 27th 03, 01:35 PM
Phil Barnhart
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Drink it, enjoy it, share it with friends, argue about the grade Wine
Spectator is, and not worry that someone dipped my bottle or stuck it
in an ACG slab to make it taste better.

"Jack Russell" wrote in message ...
My good friend, the law profession, paid for drinks that night - and
looked ill about our day. He agreed with me - in ANY other field what
these dealers attempted would be unethical; in many cases even
criminal fraud. One man's "caveat emptor" is another man's thievery.
And I am sick of the lot of them. I just can't stand being around an
entire crowd of people all trying to rip each other off. And
certainly not any "fun." I've switched to wine tasting.


What are going to do after you find out the $50 bottle of wine you bought
only cost the winery $12 to produce?

Jack

  #16  
Old August 27th 03, 04:52 PM
James McCown
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ospam (Ira Stein) wrote in message ...
James McCown states:

ospam (Ira Stein) wrote in message
...
I find your story hard, no, impossible to believe.


I don't.



Then you are just too gullible, Jim. I hear horror stories like this about
some dealers who own shops. You know the ones...little old widow comes in with
her late husband's prized coin collection and gets 10c on the $ if lucky.


Well, Ira, I'll give you just one example of what I have seen.

A non-collector in Columbus was trying to sell a collection she
inherited. She had received an offer from a nationally prominent
dealer in the area (hint:Westerville) and was unsure whether or not to
accept it. A friend of mine who runs an antique store asked me to look
at the woman's coins. Here is just a partial list:

(1) Complete set of indian cents. The 1877 was at least MS-63 BN.

(2) Complete set of standing liberty quarters. The 1916 and the
overdate were decent VG's and the 1927-S was a solid MS-60.

(3) Nearly complete set of Morgan dollars (lacking 1895-P and 1893-S).
The 89-CC was XF.

so far as I could tell, all of the key dates were genuine.

The offer was $500!

This kind of crap goes on all the time, at coin shows and elsewhere.

I don't understand why, but there is some adverse selection problem
that attracts unscrupulous people to become coin dealers. You can
stick your head in the sand and deny it all you want, but it's a fact.
  #17  
Old August 27th 03, 05:38 PM
Fred
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I have to agree Ira. And it goes beyond the occassional inheritance or
newbie.

Back in April, we had Chief Engraver John Mercanti come to our coin club to
speak. He always signs our COA's to the Commems that he has done at the end
of the meeting.

Before the meeting, to kill time, I always go to my coin dealers shop and
hang out. I had brought a few commems for Mr. Mercanti to autograph but I
wanted one more. I chose the 1986 SoL set(the silver dollar and the clad
half). My dealer looked at THREE different price guides and quoted that it
would cost me $28!!!!! The set at the time only sold for something around
$16-$18!!!!!

He was simply trying to capitalize on my need to get something autographed.
However, I do not intend to sell these on eBay and hence, I declined his
offer. So, the search continues for the set. Atleast I have the power to
say "NO". THAT is the most powerful word in this hobby!

I have other horror stories of the injustices that were done to me but I
will spare the audience.

Fred
"Phil Barnhart" wrote in message
om...
This summer, a good friend and ethics professor at a prominent law
school invited me up for a weekend. During this visit he commented
that it had been quite awhile since I had mentioned coins to him. I
had been an avid collector. I told him the truth.

"I am sick of dishonest, unethical and greedy people. So I have sold
almost all my coins and am leaving the hobby. It is just too hard on
the psyche"

After a great deal of debate, I made an offer to him. The ANA
convention would be in Baltimore in a few weeks and I offered to prove
to him that finding an honest dealer was harder in the convention
floor than in any court. The bet was on.

We met up at the convention, and I explained what we had to do. I had
two coins, slabbed by well-known services, that we would remove from
the slabs and try to sell. Each would be in an Eagle holder. Our
story was that these were my father's coins, and he was now in a home
and needed some money. One would be an 1892-O Half Eagle graded AU-55
(value between $1500-$2000). The second would be an 1916 Standing Lib
graded AU-58 (value between $4500-$5100).

Over six hours we approached 40 dealers (one of which posts here on
occasion - do you remember us?). We were lied to (10 dealers pointed
to the price of an 1892 Half Eagle on their grey sheet instead of the
New Orleans coin). 6 dealers gave us prices for the 1917 Standing
lib. What did the others do?

Almost every one asked us how much we wanted. One dealer even had
similarly grade 1916 in his case - he purposely laid several papers
over that area of the case while we chatted.

Almost every dealer undergraded these coins considerably. They used
the terms "very good" and "fine." At least 8 dealers said that they
had been cleaned. Here are the lowest and highest offers:

1892-O Half Eagle
Low offer: $250
Median offer: $650
High offer: $875

1916 Standing Lib
Low offer: $50 (offered 3 times)
Median offer: $550
High offer: $1300

Many of these dealers were good ANA members, respected, and heavy Coin
World advertisers. Not a single one of them were ethical. One
well-known dealer eyed the Standing lib for several minutes, declared
it an "extra-fine" and offered me $900.

"Are you positive about the grade?"

"Oh, yes. I've dealt with thousands of coins over the years. My
standards are very strict."

"What about grading companies?" Many of his coins were slabbed.

"They can be all over the map, but usually my grade matches theirs.
Slabbing a coin is expensive, though."

"So this coin is extra-fine, and you can give me $900 right now? How
about $1100?"

He pretends to think about it a bit. "I think I know someone who
might take this. MMmmmmmmmmmm. Okay."

"What if I told you I know this coin is actually AU, was purchased
from B&M five years ago, and is worth over 4 grand?"

If looks would kill, I'd be dead. "Everyone is entitled to their
opinion. A coin is only worth what someone else is willing to pay for
it." He had a few other choice words then had to call someone on his
cell. This dealer was the only one we confronted.

My good friend, the law profession, paid for drinks that night - and
looked ill about our day. He agreed with me - in ANY other field what
these dealers attempted would be unethical; in many cases even
criminal fraud. One man's "caveat emptor" is another man's thievery.
And I am sick of the lot of them. I just can't stand being around an
entire crowd of people all trying to rip each other off. And
certainly not any "fun." I've switched to wine tasting.

For the record, I sent the coins back through the slabbing process -
the standing lib came even back MS-63. Lol! I sold both of them -
this time letting the dealer in LA know I knew what the coins were
actually worth. The final price:

1916 Standing Lib: $5300
1892-O Half Eagle: $1600

Oh, and why did I take such a low price on the standing lib? I was
actually offered more. Because I think the grading service messed up;
in my own eyes it is a great AU, not a poor UNC. And ethically, I
could not take more. I wonder if this dealer will discount the coin
against the grade when he sells it . . .



  #18  
Old August 27th 03, 06:18 PM
Bill Krummel
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"Phil Barnhart" wrote in message
om...
Dondi,

I have provided people lists of the dealers; I even have had a phone
conference with two of the dealers and another ANA member who emailed
me about this post. These dealers confirmed my story. My question is
that why are you so quick to call me a liar when you don't know me?
Why not email me and ask me for more information? I am not trying to
sell anything. And why are several other collectors confirming my
experience while dealers like you so quick to call me a liar, stupid,
etc? Sort of my point? You have an extremely jaded view of people.

And you prove my point:

"$500+ profit is flat out guaranteed? Those coins would have never
made it past
my table, and I'd have turned the profit before I left the show,
probably
before I ate supper."

Facing someone with two raw coins and no knowledge, you immediately
think "$500+" profit. You don't suggest that they take it down to the
end of the hall and slab it. Your IMMEDIATE reaction is to take the
money and run like crazy. You can call it whatever you want. You can
say it is the seller's responsibity. You can make any excuse you
want. But you would brag about how a couple of rubes sold you a
valuable coin because they were clueless and trusted you to provide a
fair price including a reasonable markup. Stupid people. Smart
dealer. Sort of the attitude that has worn me out as a collector.


Phil, I have read and enjoyed this thread from the start. I, too, have a
difficult time believing that your experiences were as bad as you portrayed,
for at least two reasons. First, I have never had a lowball experience with
a dealer, other than one brief experience with what I believe is called a
"vest pocket" dealer, who worked his deals out of his home.

Second, like several others, I find it hard to believe that the coin show
dealers in your story would still be in business with the type of antics you
say they were trying to pull. If the story implied a small percentage
tried to lowball you, I could accept that, concluding that the few
lowballers would not stay in business very long.

I took an Isabella quarter, ICG AU58 to the St. Louis Silver Dollar show
last October. I showed it to 5 or 6 dealers. Every dealer I showed it to
thought it was overgraded by ICG, and I agreed, feeling the same way before
I ever entered the hall. Half of the dealers did not want to make an offer,
simply saying they were not interested. A couple of dealers made offers
that I could refuse, and did, but they were not what I would call low ball
offers. One dealer said he thought the coin was not an AU58 and asked me
what I thought the coin graded. I told him I didn't think it was a 58, but
it was better than a 50 and that's as close as I would come to a grade. He
asked me how much I wanted, I told him a figure and he took it. I don't
consider a single dealer at this show as a bad experience. I also sold a
couple of ancients for a friend at the same show, offered about half of
retail, with the explanation that he had abundant supply, which was evident
from his case. I took the offer happily and do not consider the offer as
unfair or lowball.

I have had several (maybe a half dozen) other good experiences at smaller,
local coin shows, getting what I thought were strong offers and taking them.

I just have a hard time imagining a dealer offering $50 on a coin that is a
solid $4,000 coin; not in a hall full of dealers that would reveal my offer
as way out of line. I can't imagine a dealer offering $50 on a coin when
even an offer of $2,000 would represent a guaranteed profit and the
potential for tremendous profit. Why would any business man let that kind
of profit walk away from the table by making a stupid offer. That goes
against logic, and my personal experiences.

So, I understand why your story is getting strong resistance. It is just
hard to believe. Bill


  #19  
Old August 27th 03, 07:18 PM
Harv
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"Phil Barnhart" wrote in message
om...
Mmm - lets say you know nothing of coins and get several as part of an
estate. HOW are you going to educate yourself? Library references in
most towns are woefully out of date and inadequate. Do a Google
search on coin collecting (make it fair - pick a subject you know
NOTHING about collecting, do a search, and give yourself a half-hour -
could you now determine the value of a particular item? Nope). So
what are ya going to do. What would a typical non-collector do?
Since numismatics is one of the few areas without independent
appraisers, you take your coins to the local dealer . . . .

What else would someone do? Reasonably?


Find or make a friend who is an experienced collector, sit down with him and
his collection and your stuff and start asking questions. How does anyone
learn about anything? They have a teacher or a mentor. Were you born knowing
how to drive or how to balance a checkbook or ride a bicycle or use a
computer? I've been using computers since the late 1970s and still don't
pretend to know everything, and still ask questions of friends who
specialize in certain areas in which my knowledge is lacking. Of course I
don't NEED to know everything there is to know. I don't NEED to know how to
program in assembly language. If you're trying to sell coins, you don't NEED
to know the mechanics of how a coin press works..

You can only take "self taught" to a certain limit, and then you have to
seek the advice of others with more experience and just start asking a lot
of questions. There's only so much you get from buying a pile of coin books
and trying to teach yourself what it all means.

Unfortunately, they don't give college courses in Numismatics, but if there
really are tens of millions of collectors in the US, they probably should..
If they did, all those ripoff teevee coin selling shows would soon go away
as people learned what a scam they are. Dealers wouldn't rub their hands
with glee like Mr. Burns when they fleece an uneducated seller out of a
valuable coin for pennies on the dollar.

It's like anything else in life. If you wanna play the game, you have to
learn the rules.. and the best way to learn the rules are from someone else
who already knows them..

Harv



  #20  
Old August 27th 03, 07:52 PM
DONDI3
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In article ,
(Phil Barnhart) writes:

Dondi,

I have provided people lists of the dealers;


GREAT. Then posting it here will be no problem for you, will it?

I even have had a phone conference with two of the dealers and another ANA
member who emailed me about this post.These dealers confirmed my story.


Good, we can use their names to verify your story also. We're all fascinated
as to why those lowlifes suddenly decided to admit to their crimes. Who are
they?


My question is that why are you so quick to call me a liar when you don't know
me?

If someone told you the Moon had just fell into the ocean, how well do you feel
you'd have to know before deciding he was a liar?

Why not email me and ask me for more information?


If I think you're lying in your posting, why do think I'd believe your email?

I am not trying to
sell anything. And why are several other collectors confirming my
experience


Good, tell us those "other collectors" who'll confirm your experience. We're
all ears.

while dealers like you so quick to call me a liar, stupid,
etc? Sort of my point? You have an extremely jaded view of people.


pot...kettle...


And you prove my point:

"$500+ profit is flat out guaranteed? Those coins would have never
made it past
my table, and I'd have turned the profit before I left the show,
probably
before I ate supper."


Well, let's see:

1892-O half eagle...AU bid $1000
1916 standing lib...AU $5250, MS63 $8250.

Now if I had offered a little back of bid, say 10% back or so (not likely on a
hot coin like the quarter, especially in a roomful of salivating competition,
I'd have offered between $5626 and $8125, depending on my grading skills. If
I'm wrong about the quarter, I stand to lose $5K. In return I'm making a 7% to
9% markup. I'm anxious to hear what a "real consultant" thinks would be a more
reasonable fee for grading, authenticating and making the sale.

Facing someone with two raw coins and no knowledge, you immediately
think "$500+" profit. You don't suggest that they take it down to the
end of the hall and slab it.


Yeah, that's a good idea. Get him and his $500 profit away from my table and
past the other 300 dealers. Some of those guys can *smell* a 16 SLQ from
across the street.

Your IMMEDIATE reaction is to take the
money and run like crazy. You can call it whatever you want. You can
say it is the seller's responsibity. You can make any excuse you
want. But you would brag about how a couple of rubes sold you a
valuable coin because they were clueless and trusted you to provide a
fair price including a reasonable markup. Stupid people.


Now look at what you wrote! Above you took me to task for doubting your tale,
and now you divine that I'd tell my friends that my customers are "rubes,
clueless and stupid" Jaded...? See why I said, "pot...kettle..."?

Smart dealer. Sort of the attitude that has worn me out as a collector.


Ya know, I think you're right. We're all better off with you tasting wine.
Judging by your claims, you've already started.

I wish you great success with your new hobby.

Dondi3
(coin collecting won't kill your liver)


DONDI enterprises. BUY, SELL, TRADE. RARE COINS & PRECIOUS METALS
Member COINNET, CSNS, ANA, INA, MOON, ILNA.
 




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