As fake as they can be

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=39348984 86

Its the old "I'm not sure if they are real or not so I'm selling them as is".

I don't like that tactic at all.

On 10 Oct 2004 21:58:42 GMT, (JSTONE9352) wrote:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=39348984 86

Its the old "I'm not sure if they are real or not so I'm selling them as is".

I don't like that tactic at all.

Yes, but this seller isn't using that tactic. Quote the whole
pertinent text: "Here is a lot of 5 bills. Not sure if this is real
or not. It doesn't say the word copy anywhere but I just bought it at
an auction. Feels fake to me but I'm not a money expert. So this
auction will be sold AS IS."

Note that he describes the notes as not having the word copy but he
also thinks they "feel" fake. If you're not an expert, this sounds
like a reasonable way to sell such things

Padraic.

la cieurgeourea provoer mal trasfu
ast meiyoer ke 'l andrext ben trasfu.

Its the old "I'm not sure if they are real or not so I'm selling them as is".

I don't like that tactic at all.

Why do you think it's a tactic? There are people out there who really don't
know.
Unless this seller has a habit of this, I would give them the benefit of doubt.
--

Brian Blackwell
SPMC 9522 ANA LM2644
My Obsolete Banknotes Page
http://home.att.net/~brianblackwell/obsolete.htm

(JSTONE9352) wrote
Its the old "I'm not sure if they are real or not so I'm selling them as is".
I don't like that tactic at all.

Neither does eBay. It is against their rules. Feel free to report it if you care.

Michael

(Brian) wrote:
Its the old "I'm not sure if they are real or not so I'm selling them as is".
I don't like that tactic at all.

Why do you think it's a tactic?
There are people out there who really don't know.
Unless this seller has a habit of this,
I would give them the benefit of doubt.

eBay has very clear policies against this. When founded, eBay foresaw
the problem and addressed it in their rules for sellers. At that
time, eBay cared not so much about stamps and coins, but about Gucci
handbags and Koko Channel
Little-Rubber-Cleats-for-the-Bottom-of-High-Heels. Tommy, Nike, Dior,
and all the others have _long_ had brand-name ripoffs hurting their
sales. eBay did not want to have any problems, either with the
brand-name owners or with buyers ticked off because they bought a fake
"Alarm Clock Rapper" alarm clock.

Futhermore, even if eBay did not have a very clear policy for sellers
against disclaiming knowledge of authenticity, it is a bad idea to buy
from someone who does not know their wares and who will not stand
behind them.

Michael
ANA R-162953
MSNS 7935

Padraic Brown wrote:
Note that he describes the notes as not having the word copy but he
also thinks they "feel" fake. If you're not an expert, this sounds
like a reasonable way to sell such things

How about: I don't know anything about plumbing, but this joint looks
like it is leaking. I don't anything about fixing such a problem, but
I think that I should use solder. Or: I don't know anything about
dentistry, but this will not cost you much ...

eBay has a very clear policy against sellers using this tactic.
eBay's concerns -- as stated in the examples they use in their
policies -- were for fake Gucci handbags. eBay did not want any
trouble from Gucci, or from buyers ripped off by sellers of fake
Guccis.

We could around on this in an interminable eBay thread -- and maybe we
should.

Michael
ANA R-162953
MSNS 7935

On 11 Oct 2004 05:36:03 -0700, (Michael E.
Marotta) wrote:

Padraic Brown wrote:
Note that he describes the notes as not having the word copy but he
also thinks they "feel" fake. If you're not an expert, this sounds
like a reasonable way to sell such things

How about: I don't know anything about plumbing, but this joint looks
like it is leaking. I don't anything about fixing such a problem, but
I think that I should use solder. Or: I don't know anything about
dentistry, but this will not cost you much ...

So, your position is that if someone is not an expert in mid-19th
century American currency, they ought not be allowed to sell. OK.
Perhaps Ebay ought to perform background checks and only allow ANA
members who are also coin dealers to sell coins!

Note that he was NOT selling a service provided by him. Rather, he's
selling an item that we both know is fake and he admits is probably
fake but does not know for sure. I choose to give the benefit of the
doubt until better evidence comes along.

Let's take a similar example. I have a peso that could be a fake (it
is good gold, however) and I bought it as such. Should I not sell it
just because I personally am not a numismatist and am unsure as to its
legitimacy?

eBay has a very clear policy against sellers using this tactic.

If you can demonstrate that this is, in fact, a "tactic" [by
documenting a pattern of behaviour on part of the seller], then I'm
100% with you. As far as I can tell from looking only at the auction
page, I would not jump to that conclusion.

eBay's concerns -- as stated in the examples they use in their
policies -- were for fake Gucci handbags. eBay did not want any
trouble from Gucci, or from buyers ripped off by sellers of fake
Guccis.

Well, who on earth would they be afraid of getting in "trouble" with
here? The Confederate States of America? That's a half facetious
question, but the point is: there is no manufacturer which Ebay is
trying to avoid difficulties with in this case. If the notes are fake,
then they're fake! It's not like the CSA is going to sue Ebay if a
member sells copies of CS notes.

Padraic.

la cieurgeourea provoer mal trasfu
ast meiyoer ke 'l andrext ben trasfu.

Padraic Brown wrote:
So, your position is that if someone is not an expert in mid-19th
century American currency, they ought not be allowed to sell. OK.
Perhaps Ebay ought to perform background checks and only allow ANA
members who are also coin dealers to sell coins!

That is not my position at all. eBay sets its rules. It is that
simple. The rest is not relevant.

As for other marketplaces, I have been happy for almost ten years with
a little electrum 1/12 stater that I got from Gordon Andreas Singer,
at convention of the Michigan State Numismatic Society. "Andy" Singer
is a dealer in medieval coins. He offered me that one with no
guarantees because he did not know enough, but, he said, if I did,
then the coin was mine. The 2x2 said "Samos" but I identified as
Miletos. I carried through the attribution and published it in the
Classical and Medieval Society's ANVIL.

So, ultimately, I have no problem with a seller not knowing and saying
so, and leaving it up to me to decide. Again, however, eBay sets
other rules for its member sellers.

Michael
"caveating like an emptor"

On 11 Oct 2004 20:43:26 -0700, (Michael E.
Marotta) wrote:

Padraic Brown wrote:
So, your position is that if someone is not an expert in mid-19th
century American currency, they ought not be allowed to sell. OK.
Perhaps Ebay ought to perform background checks and only allow ANA
members who are also coin dealers to sell coins!

That is not my position at all. eBay sets its rules. It is that
simple. The rest is not relevant.

I'm not complaining about the rules - just about the application. We
can't tell from one auction if this is a "tactic" or an uninformed
seller.

As for other marketplaces, I have been happy for almost ten years with
a little electrum 1/12 stater that I got from Gordon Andreas Singer,
at convention of the Michigan State Numismatic Society. "Andy" Singer
is a dealer in medieval coins. He offered me that one with no
guarantees because he did not know enough,

Sounds like a similar "tactic"! I suspect that you knew and trusted
"Andy" and accepted that he wasn't trying to dump a fake on you using
the tactic of "I don't know if this is real or not..."

All I'm saying is that in the absence of further evidence, there is no
reason to suppose that this Ebay seller is doing anything different.

So, ultimately, I have no problem with a seller not knowing and saying
so, and leaving it up to me to decide. Again, however, eBay sets
other rules for its member sellers.

Sure. And if this seller should demonstrate a propensity for
"ignorance" of his offerings then I'd say those rules should apply to
him.

Padraic.

la cieurgeourea provoer mal trasfu
ast meiyoer ke 'l andrext ben trasfu.

Padraic Brown wrote:
I'm not complaining about the rules - just about the application. We
can't tell from one auction if this is a "tactic" or an uninformed
seller.

It makes no difference, according to the rules.

... And if this seller should demonstrate a propensity for
"ignorance" of his offerings then I'd say
those rules should apply to him.

This is not like baseball where you get three strikes. It is like
cricket: the bails are on the wicket, or they are not. On eBay,
disclaiming knowledge of authenticity is cricket's sticky wicket or
baseball's corked bat: not allowed. There are other places to sell
these things, of course, but it would not matter if there were not.
The rules on eBay are clear.

Michael
"does not shop online"