Are Overgraded Slabbed Notes Ruining The Hobby

Unlike Ebay, where it is, after all, caveat emptor, and overgraded
notes are the rule rather than the exception; are overgraded and
processed notes in currency "slabs" the real danger to paper money
collecting?

In any major US currency auction, you can find notes that have been
processed and assigned grades sometimes amazingly at variance since
their last public appearance. More and more of this type of material
is finding its way into so-called "3rd party" currency slabs.

Slabs have had several positive effects:

1. More novice collectors are willing to spend larger sums on paper
money (driving up demand and prices for such entry level items as $1
1899 SCs, $1 1918 FRBNs, etc.);

2. Increasing profits for dealers promoting "grade rarity" (just how
rare is a 1957A $1 SC in Gem67 when you can buy them by the pack?);

3. Increasing profits for the 3rd party slabbers who slab their own
material (but have surrogates sell these for them);

4. Increasing profits for the processors who have their material
slabbed (perhaps with the knowledge of the slabbers) at high grades.

Lets see the shake up in 5, 10 or 20 years.

Slabs have had several positive effects:


To the sellers, processors and the slabbers.

For the buyer? Overpaying for common
material.

When it happened with coins it was only
a matter of time before it migrated over
to paper money.

From: jstone9352
Slabs have had several positive effects:
To the sellers, processors and the slabbers. For the buyer? Overpaying for
common material.

It's all in perspective, really. Allow me my thoughts for both pro and con on
this issue:

With coins, "protection" is but one of the issues; another is attribution. I
once wanted a common-date Morgan, but the seller said it was a "scarce VAM",
and wanted more than *I* thought it was worth. Fact remains, collecting by VAM
has it's following. For the VAM collector, an acknowledged attribution by slab
is desirable.

There is a huge difference in collecting coins and Paper-money, in that coins
are much more durable, and a wider variety of specific variations. As far as
attribution is concerned, there is a lesser degree needed for Notes than coins.

But if slabbing coins for protection makes sense, then it certainly does so
also for Notes, many times over. But here, I think the slabbers have fallen
short. The plastic used in both coin and Note slabs should be acid-free
(archival quality), and - in *my* opinion - should be vac-sealed when secured
(they currently aren't).

When it comes to Paper Note "slabs", there is an additional feature I believe
should be applied; the plastic should be polarized or contain a UV reflective
element, for added "protection". If this were done, the "slabbing" of Paper
Money might make more sense.

Next issue is a tangent to the previous points. "Slabs" were engineered /
developed for coins. Other than the vaccuum & polarization items, additional
refinements need to be attended. Size, borderings, and other things need to be
better thought out and applied than what is currently offered in this
"service". The avaliable Note "slabs" are rather wanting and left somewhat
lacking. A re-engineering might be called for.

Finally, I don't think that the word "slab" should be used for paper-money;
it's somewhat fitting for coinage, but I feel a better term, one which would
identify paper currency specifically, should be used. Perhaps something like
"Shield" or "Case".

my opinions.
8-]
Coin Saver

Slabbed notes could be called "entombed" as there is nothing positive
about it so a name with a negative connotation is very appropriate.

How can a processed note be detected if it's entombed? It can't thus
leaving an open door for those less scrupulous grading companies to give
a high grade to an entombed note which would be much more difficult to
detect than an overgraded coin, impossible even.

The entombing of notes should be resisted vigorously by every note
collector. Billy


Coin Saver wrote:

From: jstone9352
Slabs have had several positive effects:
To the sellers, processors and the slabbers. For the buyer? Overpaying for
common material.

It's all in perspective, really. Allow me my thoughts for both pro and con on
this issue:

With coins, "protection" is but one of the issues; another is attribution. I
once wanted a common-date Morgan, but the seller said it was a "scarce VAM",
and wanted more than *I* thought it was worth. Fact remains, collecting by VAM
has it's following. For the VAM collector, an acknowledged attribution by slab
is desirable.

There is a huge difference in collecting coins and Paper-money, in that coins
are much more durable, and a wider variety of specific variations. As far as
attribution is concerned, there is a lesser degree needed for Notes than coins.

But if slabbing coins for protection makes sense, then it certainly does so
also for Notes, many times over. But here, I think the slabbers have fallen
short. The plastic used in both coin and Note slabs should be acid-free
(archival quality), and - in *my* opinion - should be vac-sealed when secured
(they currently aren't).

When it comes to Paper Note "slabs", there is an additional feature I believe
should be applied; the plastic should be polarized or contain a UV reflective
element, for added "protection". If this were done, the "slabbing" of Paper
Money might make more sense.

Next issue is a tangent to the previous points. "Slabs" were engineered /
developed for coins. Other than the vaccuum & polarization items, additional
refinements need to be attended. Size, borderings, and other things need to be
better thought out and applied than what is currently offered in this
"service". The avaliable Note "slabs" are rather wanting and left somewhat
lacking. A re-engineering might be called for.

Finally, I don't think that the word "slab" should be used for paper-money;
it's somewhat fitting for coinage, but I feel a better term, one which would
identify paper currency specifically, should be used. Perhaps something like
"Shield" or "Case".

my opinions.
8-]
Coin Saver

How can a processed note be detected if it's entombed?


Slabbed paper money won't past the
"smell" test that many collectors and
dealers use to determine if a chemical
has been applied to the note to "improve" it.

"note.boy" wrote
How can a processed note be detected if it's entombed? It can't thus...

As has been pointed out the sniff test is important to paper. I know
one _COIN_ authenticator who routinely sniffed everything sent to her.
You have to use all of your senses.

The suggestion that holders block UV, etc., is a good one.

There is a difference between archiving your OWN material and being
lured into buying someone else's because its attributes are hidden
from your inspection.

From what little I have seen on the bourse floor, slabbing paper money
does not do much for either the buyer or the seller. Like the
encapsulating of coins, sealing up paper makes the sight-unseen market
more liquid. How you relate to that general market is up to you.

Michael
ANA R-162953

(Michael E. Marotta) wrote in message . com...
"note.boy" wrote
How can a processed note be detected if it's entombed? It can't thus...

As has been pointed out the sniff test is important to paper.


Sniff test is the least important in examining paper. Old musty scent
can easily be "manufactured" by placing the note in an old book for a
while.

You need to look at the embossing (and perhaps lack thereof in key
spots). While serial number embossing can be (and has been) faked,
other areas of embossing can't be imitated. Once processes, the
natural raised inking of the intaglio becomes flat and lifeless. It
can only be "sensed" by running the thumb and forefinger over it.
Rolling the note (some time very agressively) can usually detect
pressed folds. There are a lot of other "tricks" too. It is much more
complex than just taking a loop to the note.

The key thing to remember, is that NONE of these can be done if the
note is in a holder. If the holder is merely sealed or a hard plastic
holder, you don't really have enough information to go on to determine
if the note is really what is being represented.

While the vast majority (90+%) of slabbed paper is pretty close to the
mark grade wise, that still leaves a lot of notes that are not only
way off in grade, but may be misrepresented. With those type of odds,
why would you just trust the slab?

As far as preserving notes, paper needs to breath a bit and sealing it
in an air tight package seems pretty short sighted. There is no better
protection to be found in a CGA holder than a quality mylar holder
such as Denly sells. The plastic holders seem like the stupidist idea
of all. How can you safely get the note out of the holder (it is
magnitudes more fragile than a coin) and you would need 10 to 20 times
more storage space to keep your collection. As for the long term
effects of a plastic holder (designed for coin storage) on bank notes
that vary in composition is a big unknown.

The few slabbed notes I have purchased, were notes I wanted
notwithstanding the holder (mostly nationals and a red seal FRN). I
have cut the notes out and placed in mylar holders like all the rest
of my collection. The holder is too large and doesn't add a bit.


Like the
encapsulating of coins, sealing up paper makes the sight-unseen market
more liquid. How you relate to that general market is up to you.


There is no sight unseen market for slabbed notes. If and when one
develops, it is doubtful whether it will ever be as strong as notes
you can look at (and examine). In the long run, buying a slabbed note
solely in reliance on the grade assigned is buying a pig in a poke.
You might get a great item accurately described or a processed "pig"
that you better keep in the slab if you want to sell it to some other
sucker.

Fiona Always wrote:

(Michael E. Marotta) wrote in message . com...
"note.boy" wrote
How can a processed note be detected if it's entombed? It can't thus...

As has been pointed out the sniff test is important to paper.

Sniff test is the least important in examining paper. Old musty scent
can easily be "manufactured" by placing the note in an old book for a
while.

The sniff test is very important as many cleaned note have not been
stored in an old book after cleaning and the cleaning agent can be
detected by sniffing the note, some smell like the inside of a laundry.
Billy



You need to look at the embossing (and perhaps lack thereof in key
spots). While serial number embossing can be (and has been) faked,
other areas of embossing can't be imitated. Once processes, the
natural raised inking of the intaglio becomes flat and lifeless. It
can only be "sensed" by running the thumb and forefinger over it.
Rolling the note (some time very agressively) can usually detect
pressed folds. There are a lot of other "tricks" too. It is much more
complex than just taking a loop to the note.

The key thing to remember, is that NONE of these can be done if the
note is in a holder. If the holder is merely sealed or a hard plastic
holder, you don't really have enough information to go on to determine
if the note is really what is being represented.

While the vast majority (90+%) of slabbed paper is pretty close to the
mark grade wise, that still leaves a lot of notes that are not only
way off in grade, but may be misrepresented. With those type of odds,
why would you just trust the slab?

As far as preserving notes, paper needs to breath a bit and sealing it
in an air tight package seems pretty short sighted. There is no better
protection to be found in a CGA holder than a quality mylar holder
such as Denly sells. The plastic holders seem like the stupidist idea
of all. How can you safely get the note out of the holder (it is
magnitudes more fragile than a coin) and you would need 10 to 20 times
more storage space to keep your collection. As for the long term
effects of a plastic holder (designed for coin storage) on bank notes
that vary in composition is a big unknown.

The few slabbed notes I have purchased, were notes I wanted
notwithstanding the holder (mostly nationals and a red seal FRN). I
have cut the notes out and placed in mylar holders like all the rest
of my collection. The holder is too large and doesn't add a bit.

Like the
encapsulating of coins, sealing up paper makes the sight-unseen market
more liquid. How you relate to that general market is up to you.

There is no sight unseen market for slabbed notes. If and when one
develops, it is doubtful whether it will ever be as strong as notes
you can look at (and examine). In the long run, buying a slabbed note
solely in reliance on the grade assigned is buying a pig in a poke.
You might get a great item accurately described or a processed "pig"
that you better keep in the slab if you want to sell it to some other
sucker.

On 07 Apr 2004 16:06:34 GMT, ojunk (Coin Saver)
wrote:

From: jstone9352
Slabs have had several positive effects:
To the sellers, processors and the slabbers. For the buyer? Overpaying for
common material.

It's all in perspective, really. Allow me my thoughts for both pro and con on
this issue:

With coins, "protection" is but one of the issues; another is attribution. I
once wanted a common-date Morgan, but the seller said it was a "scarce VAM",
and wanted more than *I* thought it was worth. Fact remains, collecting by VAM
has it's following. For the VAM collector, an acknowledged attribution by slab
is desirable.

But that's only true if your method of collecting by variety is
to only collect by varieties attributed by someone else rather
than checking them for yourself. That's really not a reliable or
fun way to do variety collecting.

snip

There is another major disadvantage to slabs, both for paper
money and for coins. That is you cannot fully inspect the item
before purchase, to see if there's anything the holder is hiding
either intentionally or accidentally.


--
Ed. Stoebenau
a #143

"Fiona Always" wrote:
There is no sight unseen market for slabbed notes. If and when one
develops, it is doubtful whether it will ever be as strong as notes
you can look at (and examine). In the long run, buying a slabbed note
solely in reliance on the grade assigned is buying a pig in a poke.
You might get a great item accurately described or a processed "pig"
that you better keep in the slab if you want to sell it to some other
sucker.

Just checking out this group for the first time, I'm a coin collector and
veteran of the rec.collecting.coins "slab wars"--endless debates on coin
slabbing. While I can't address nuances specific to the slabbing of paper
money, a number of aspects apply to both.

Slabs generate value when they reduce the uncertainty (read: variation) over
grade or authenticity. The key measures of a good slabber are (1)
consistency of grades/attributes and (2) transparency of grading standards.
Other benefits of slabbing (protection, display consistency, etc.) pale in
comparison to the risk management value, and can generally be achieved
without slabs.

If, as your subect line suggests, slabs are indeed overgraded (i.e., not
reducing uncertainty), then yes, the hobby will suffer, as many novice
collectors will be duped by trustworthy-looking, but predatory, slabs.
Slabs also have no value (or even negative value) to experts (real or
imagined) buying sight-seen, or when the risk is low. Risk is "low" when the
cost to slab is high compared to the potential difference in market value if
the grade is inaccurate (like when the slab costs $25 and the difference
between F and CU is $30).

As you suggest, slabs can open the market for supergrades: welcome to the
world of competitive collecting--registry sets to follow! As in any kind of
trading, an expanded market (or as Michael points out, a more liquid one)
favors those who are "long" the commodity and those who make the markets.

--Chris