dip pens

On 2008-06-06, The Drunken Lord wrote:
On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 05:11:23 +0000, MatthewK
wrote:


One, I think dip pens that have a reservoir is the way to go because

1. the ones that don't, you're dipping every other word
2. the ones that don't, I get blobs all over the place, maybe because
i'm dipping so much, or so often.

There are kinds other than speedball that have reservoirs, but I don't
know what they are.


http://www.jandtblackman.ltd.uk/eSho...cts.php?cat=36

Bandzug and williams-mitchell have reservoirs. That site sells
the williams-mitchell ones seperately too.

Why don't you like the glass pens?

I played around with my speedball stuff yesterday. I think I
have remnants of the "artist kit". I noticed the the noodlers
BP black doesn't do well in the dip pens at all but my platinum
watery red does wonderfully. Must be some flow characteristics?

The red actually comes out as a pink, I'm not sure how it
would be in a japanese fine fp.

I checked out the misterart store and they have a good deal on
bombay ink. Any decent store, hobby or otherwise, is about an
hour away so I do a lot of online shopping.

matthew

On 2008-06-06, Bluesea wrote:

"The Drunken Lord" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 05:11:23 +0000, MatthewK


I tried a dip pen several years ago and stuck it in a drawer thinking
there's a technique I need to learn before it'll be enjoyable for me. I
still haven't looked into it. Is there a technique for using dip pens? All I
did was dip the nib into the ink at varying depths, sometimes touching the
point to the bottle to get rid of the excess.

So far I've noticed that I need an extra-light hand with the
fine and square tipped nibs. I was a little put off by the
difference at first. Out of the two inks I used (bp black and
platinum red) the watery platinum red worked best.


Maybe what I need is a reservoir pen.

From:

http://www.penandinkability.co.uk/ni...loadingink.htm

Loading the Nib with Ink
If you are using a nib and holder without a reservoir then you
have a choice, of either dipping the nib into the bottled ink
in the normal way. Or using a small brush, pick up some ink
with it and introduce it to the nib. This way you have control
over the amount of ink given to the nib and you don.t have the
nib over full with ink and inclined to drip.

If you are using a pen nib with a reservoir and a bottle of ink
with a dropper cap, then you can successfully use this to
introduce ink to the nib. Just position the business end of the
dropper between the nib and reservoir, apply a small amount of
pressure to the bulb of the dropper and watch the flow of ink
into the reservoir.
If you are not using a dropper bottle then use a brush loaded
with ink as described above, using the bristles to introduce
the ink into the space between the reservoir and nib.

Always test the flow of the ink from the nib on a spare piece
of paper before attempting to write with it. Trying the ink
flow first gives you the confidence to know the ink will flow
when you start to write, also any excess ink will be used up
and therefore not drip and spoil your work.

It.s important that the nib has been washed with soap and water
then dried prior to use, otherwise the ink may not cling to the
nib. In effect the ink will slide off the nib like water off a
ducks back!

On 2008-06-07, Brian Ketterling wrote:
In ,
Bluesea wrote:


Maybe what I need is a reservoir pen.

A while back, in a jumble of dip pens I bought on eBay (containing the
Esterbrook "Dip-Less" I wanted), I found several holders with FP-style HR
feeds, and a little ink space in the handles behind the feeds. Something
like that might work for you -- I wonder whether anyone makes them anymore.
(Am I describing a "reservoir pen", BTW?)


I'm out of my league when you guys start talking about
esterbrooks and vintage pens but this may be interesting if you
didn't know such a thing existed.

http://www.ackermanpens.com/

I first read about these on stutler's sketching forum and I
guess they can be pretty messy.

matthew

On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 13:45:59 +0000, MatthewK
wrote:

I'm out of my league when you guys start talking about
esterbrooks and vintage pens but this may be interesting if you
didn't know such a thing existed.

Esterbrook made a whole bunch of different types of nibs, and then
when fountain pens came out, people were stuck with warehouses full of
them, and they're still around, and you can get them pretty cheap.

Esterbrook also made fountain pens later on.

I don't know much about vintage pens and don't care to know. They'd
be more interesting to me if they didn't cost hundreds and thousands.

There are so many old Shaeffers out there in disrepair that you can
get those pretty cheap on ebay, and I got a few, but haven't fixed
them yet.

http://www.ackermanpens.com/

I first read about these on stutler's sketching forum and I
guess they can be pretty messy.

That looks like a real "reservoir" pen. I didn't know they existed
like that.

On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 13:32:00 +0000, MatthewK
wrote:

Why don't you like the glass pens?

I don't like rounded points--I kind of have to have stubs or italic
points. My handwriting is out of control even with stubs and italics,
but it helps keep my hand more steady. I don't have any muscle
disease or anything like that--I just write too fast.

I played around with my speedball stuff yesterday. I think I
have remnants of the "artist kit". I noticed the the noodlers
BP black doesn't do well in the dip pens at all but my platinum
watery red does wonderfully. Must be some flow characteristics?

The red actually comes out as a pink, I'm not sure how it
would be in a japanese fine fp.

It's spreading out more then. It looks red on a fine line and pink
when broader.

I checked out the misterart store and they have a good deal on
bombay ink. Any decent store, hobby or otherwise, is about an
hour away so I do a lot of online shopping.

Yeah, Bombay is cheap everywhere, but maybe a little cheaper at
misterart.com

In ,
MatthewK wrote:

http://www.ackermanpens.com/

I first read about these on stutler's sketching forum and I
guess they can be pretty messy.

If you pump ink out onto the nib, I can believe it can be messy, but it's a
lot more elegant than an older design I've seen (made by Speedball? -- I
can't remember at the moment). That one has a big, fat handle, and a thin
metal tube that comes out alongside the nib, then curves in to deposit the
ink on the nib.

Brian
--

Bluesea wrote:

Is there a technique for using dip pens? All I
did was dip the nib into the ink at varying depths, sometimes touching the
point to the bottle to get rid of the excess.

It really depends on the nib that you have. Some others here have
described the reservoir nibs and the like, but I use a simple nib with
no reservoir and I don't have any troubles with it. It's an extra
flexible steel dip (extra flexible compared to modern fountain pen nibs)
that is considered a "medium."

I take the technique for writing with them from a Spencerian Penmanship
book [1] as follows:

"The position for writing should be a convenient one, allowing the easy
action of the right arm and hand. In sitting at a desk or table there is
little choice between [different angles and positions] ... As the free
use of the hand mainly depends on the manner of holding the pen, the
correct method only should be learned, and perservered in until it
becomes habitual and easy....

"Take the pen between the first and second fingers and the thumb,
observing, 1st, that it crosses the second finger on the corner of the
nail; 2d, that it crosses the fore finger forward of the knuckle; 3d,
that the end of the thumb touches the holder opposite the lower joint of
the fore finger; 4th, that the top of the holder points towards the
right shoulder; 5th, that the wrist is above the paper, and the hand
resting lightly on the nails of the third and fourth fingers; 6th, that
the point of the pen comes squarely to the paper."

The book further describes two different strokes, the light stroke and
the shades strokes. With light strokes being formed "by moving the pen
lightly on the paper without springing or spreading the teeth," and
shaded strokes formed "by springing the pen by a pressure to spread the
teeth, then lightening the pressure, and allowing them to return to
place."

Few people today use this form of holding the pen, or writing, and what
is considered light in the fountain pen world, even though it is very
light, may not be light enough for a flexible steel dip pen. With a
fountain pen, sometimes there are certain directions and shapes to make
that require a bit more pressure to make the proper ink flow that you
want. With a steel dip pen like those I use, these additional pressures
will deliver very different stokes than what most people expect, and so
a very ilght touch is usually required, with the shaded strokes being
formed deliberately.

As for dipping, I notice that some of the replies want you to brush the
nib with a brush or drop into the feed system. I think these are all
good ideas when absolute writing integrity must be guaranteed, but when
it comes to daily correspondence, this method seems very slow to me, and
I prefer to dip the nib straight into the bottle. I use Mont Blanc
bottles to store my ink, and they work very well for maintaining the
proper depth of ink for dipping. I dip pretty often, but quickly, and so
this isn't a problem. I find that with practice, you can reduce or
completely eliminate blobs.

[1] ISBN: 0-88062-082-X

--
Aaron Hsu | Jabber:
``Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to
live at the expense of everybody else.'' - Frederic Bastiat

MatthewK wrote:

If you want to do real Spencerian, it is absolutely essential that you
get the right pen. :-) Spencerian, unliike some of the forms, is not
done with a broad tip, but only work properly with a truly flexible
sharp nib, and I would say that the finer the better. Although, you can
also start with monoline Spencerian if you just want to practice the
forms, and then "move up" to shading.

Yeah, I know exactly what your talkinga about. I can't think of
the site now but I'm sure you know it. It has video tutorials
on copperplate and spencerian and some old manuals in pdf
format. Amazing stuff really.

I haven't seen any videos, if you could provide a URL that would be
great. I actually started with some PDFs of old manuals, but then found
an excellent little book that has been republished for modern
Spencerian. The only change, I believe the authors made to the original
was changing the shape of the L to make it more practical for today's
readers, but I use the slightly older form.
--
Aaron Hsu | Jabber:
``Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to
live at the expense of everybody else.'' - Frederic Bastiat

"The Drunken Lord" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 16:03:29 -0500, "Bluesea"
wrote:

I tried a dip pen several years ago and stuck it in a drawer thinking
there's a technique I need to learn before it'll be enjoyable for me. I
still haven't looked into it. Is there a technique for using dip pens? All
I
did was dip the nib into the ink at varying depths, sometimes touching the
point to the bottle to get rid of the excess.

Maybe what I need is a reservoir pen.

Those ****nuts on FPN don't use speedball nibs. They go for those
Esterbrooks. And some of the FPN'ers write pretty well with them.

But I'd never use a dip pen if I couldn't have one with a
reservoir--too much dipping. I got some C-4 and C-5 nibs recently,
some new ones, and they were pretty sharp, maybe a little too
sharp--or maybe I was just using cheap paper they kept getting hung up
on.

Speedball is also not the only kind that has reservoirs, but I think
it's the only kind currently made.

Okay, I'll look for Speedball when I go to Hobby Lobby. Thanks.

--
~~Bluesea~~
Spam is great in musubi, but not in email.
Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.

"Brian Ketterling" wrote in
message m...
In ,
Bluesea wrote:

I tried a dip pen several years ago and stuck it in a drawer thinking
there's a technique I need to learn before it'll be enjoyable for me...

Maybe what I need is a reservoir pen.

A while back, in a jumble of dip pens I bought on eBay (containing the
Esterbrook "Dip-Less" I wanted), I found several holders with FP-style HR
feeds, and a little ink space in the handles behind the feeds. Something
like that might work for you -- I wonder whether anyone makes them
anymore.
(Am I describing a "reservoir pen", BTW?)

It sounds good if I can find something like it locally. I don't know why,
but I've got a thing about eBay and haven't done it. If a seller has a
regular website, I'll buy from it, but not eBay. It might be the auctioning.
Mom really liked auctions and used to drag me and Dad along with her. It was
aversion therapy before I needed it, I guess.

--
~~Bluesea~~
Spam is great in musubi, but not in email.
Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.