Storing fountain pens with ink in them?

BL a écrit :



How many fountain pens have clips mounted on the end of the barrel
thus forcing the user to carry the pen nib down? (none) Where are the
rings on ringtops posted? (top of cap) Now, if fountain pens were
meant to be positioned nib down between uses, don't you think someone
along the line would have mounted clips or rings on the end of the
barrel?

It would be quite difficult to put the clip on the nib end of the
barrel, as this would interfere with writing, although I believe a
certain Italian maker does this very thing, using a rather strange
design. The tradition arose in the very early days of pen fabrication,
when it was indeed advisable to store nibs up, as I have said.


There ishowever a tradition that pens should be
stored nib up, which apparently dates back to the
days when non-stainless steel was used in nibs.
Stainless steel (most usually 18% chromium and 8%
nickel) dates of course only to the period 1903 to
1912, and was not commonly used in nibs until
after the First World War. Consequently, it was
considered more important to keep ink away from
the nib, so as to avoid corrosion, than to avoid
clogging the feed.

Huh? What do you think they were using for fountain pen nibs back
then? I really don't think anyone was particularly concerned about
gold alloy corroding.

Gold alloy was reserved for the very best pens. Gold was VERY dear back
then, you know - at least $1500/oz in current dollas. The world is full
of old, highly corroded nibs made of non-stainless steel.

No, the custom of carrying/storing pens nib up
has everything to do with minimizing the chances of leaking and
nothing to do with preventing corrosion to nibs.

A strange idea. Have you never heard of desk pens, which were designed
to be always stored nib-down? I have really said nothing that is not
common knowledge among the cognoscenti.

People simply were accustomed to frequently soak
their feeds for a few hours

Hmmmm.... I wonder what a person wrote with back then while his/her
pen was drying out. Any ideas?

Pencils were very popular, as were dip pens.

With modern stainless steel however, there is no
logical reason ever to store a pen with its nib
up.

Well, I'm not sure what type of nibs are on the OP's pens, but I think
he'll probably store the pen he formerly kept lying down nib up to
prevent the feed from flooding (which is why it was writing so wet...
It's that gravity thing, Gregg). -- B

Industry-standard feeds do not flood from being stored nib-down, but
from body heat or a poorly adjusted nib.

This constant tit-for-tat is really rather amusing, although I am
afraid that I have little time for such amusements. I find myself
beginning to rather like you....

Semolina Pilchard a écrit :

On Mon, 30 Oct 2006 07:07:45 GMT, BL wrote:

virgiliopoeta wrote:

I've snipped the discussion above 'cause I wouldn't want to interfere in a
private war

call it a little skirmish.

or appear like a lily-livered peace-maker, heaven forfend.
Carry on with the hacking and slashing, boys; you're clearly having a great
time

I CERTAINLY AM!

and I find it immensely entertaining. It livens up the group and may
even dispel some of the myths that seem to have gathered around fountain
pens and their use.

All I wanted to say is this: regardless of how it's stored, a fountain pen
is going to dry out if it isn't used. The time taken for that to happen is
going to vary from pen to pen but it'll happen eventually. It's probably -
I'll be no more definite than that - the case that the "nib up" option is
the best, though virgilpoeta's comment about the drying of ink adhering to
the nib and feed has some merit, particulary when you consider pens with
complex, multi-finned feeds. Whichever pen I'm currently using lies
horizontally in a wooden pen tray. I never have a problem with pens drying
out but that's because I use them a lot.

In essence, drying out is a problem of under-used pens. Enjoy the pleasure
of using them more often or if it does dry out, don't worry about it. All
the modern inks I've used wash out very easily.
--
Sem

I should not have implied that a pen will not dry out if tightly
sealed; it most assuredly will. However, as you say, this is not a
great tragedy. A little soaking in water with the water drawn up into
the bladder will fix things up nicely.

At one time I stored nibs up, as is often recommended to newbies, but
got tired of shaking out my pens to get them started every morning.
Often I will even have an idea for my poem (I need not tell you its
name) in the middle of the night, and it is tiresome not to have a pen
ready to write at once.

Juan a écrit :

scottmandue wrote:
Hope I'm not posting too much but I'm new to the hobby and have
lots of questions. So far I have two fountain pens, one I keep at my
desk at work and one I keep at home for doodling and taking notes while
watching TV. The one at work is relatively new, works perfectly, and I
keep it in a coffee cup tip up with some other pens, pencils, and other
office paraphernalia. The one at home I leave laying on its side and
last night it was writing very wet, should fountain pens be stored with
the tip up between uses?
Thanks,
Scott

Some pens tend to write more wet when they're running out of ink. I
think it's because of more air in the barrel/sac/cartridge means more
pressure on the ink flow. Nevertheless, it's just a guess.

Juan

I have noticed this too. I have an old Marlowe pen with the original
filling instructions that warn of this, and advise the user to refill
his pen if the ink flow suddenly increases. And indeed, Marlowes have
this problem. Many other pens however, notably the old reliable
Sheaffer school pens, simply write drier and drier until they give out.
Perhaps their combed feeds prevent any sudden increase of the ink flow.

In article . com, "virgiliopoeta" wrote:

How many fountain pens have clips mounted on the end of the barrel
thus forcing the user to carry the pen nib down? (none) Where are the
[snip]
It would be quite difficult to put the clip on the nib end of the
barrel, as this would interfere with writing, [snip]

Namiki VP has the clip on the nib end.

btw, i stored the pens on their sides.

regards,

Gee

I hated the sunsets of whatever colour, I hated its beauty and its
magic and the secret I would never know. I hated its indifference and
the cruelty which was part of its loveliness.

--- Jean Rhys, Wide Sargossa Sea

"virgiliopoeta" wrote:

It would be quite difficult to put the clip on the
nib end of the barrel, as this would interfere
with writing...

Actually, it was and is done all the time... i.e., by mounting the
clip on the cap which screws onto the nib end of the barrel. My point
was that if pens were meant to be carried nib down, manufacturers
would mount clips and rings on the closed end of the barrel (end
opposite the nib) thereby encouraging owners to carry the pen nib
down. To my knowledge, nobody has done or does this. In fact, clips
and rings were (and continue to be) mounted in a way that encourages
the pen owner to carry the pen nib up. You can find many old ads
(dating back to the early 1900s) and package inserts that recommend
that the pen be carried nib up to help prevent leaking.

The tradition arose in the very early days of pen
fabrication, when it was indeed advisable to store
nibs up, as I have said.

To prevent leaking not to prevent corrosion to nibs.
Gold alloy was reserved for the very best pens.
Gold was VERY dear back then, you know - at least
$1500/oz in current dollas.

Are you aware that this is incorrect? In other words, are you
intentionally making things up?

Gold prices were fairly constant (averaging between about $200 and
$400 an ounce (in inflation-adjusted dollars) from 1900 until the
market started going crazy in the 1970s. And you're also mistaken
about gold being reserved for the very best pens. Many second-tier and
lower pens were made with gold alloy nibs... including pens for
students, value pens (e.g., Postal Pens), and even many novelty pens.
Yes, steel was used for nibs, but gold predominated during most of
the fountain pen era.

The world is full of old, highly corroded nibs
made of non-stainless steel.

Yes, steel did not hold up well, which explains why manufacturers
(beginning with dip pen manufacturers) preferred gold.

A strange idea. Have you never heard of desk pens,
which were designed to be always stored nib-down?

Except when carried, and some were designed to convert to pens one
could carry. In those cases, the clip was oriented such that it
encouraged the owner to carry the pen nib up. Desk pens are cool. Not
very popular, but definitely cool. And when they leak, they do so into
a plastic/bakelite trumpet, and not your pocket.

I have really said nothing that is not
common knowledge among the cognoscenti.

Are you one of those cognowhichamacallits? Do the other
cognowhichamacallits maintain that gold sold for $1500 an ounce during
the heyday of fountain pens?

Industry-standard feeds do not flood from being
stored nib-down, but from body heat or a poorly
adjusted nib.

That your pens write wetter when you store them nib down clearly
illustrates the effects of gravity on ink in a fountain pen. And just
how the heck can a poorly adjusted nib cause a feed to flood? -- B

"I've been trying to keep from making ad hominem, ad excreta, or ad
anything-else arguments. I feel like Tweedle dee and dum have
accosted my left frontal orbit with a leucotome after I plummeted down
the rabbit hole and landed on my sacral chakra. shudder" John Kline

BL wrote:
No, the custom of carrying/storing pens nib up
has everything to do with minimizing the chances
of leaking and nothing to do with preventing
corrosion to nibs.

virgiliopoeta replied:
A strange idea. Have you never heard of desk pens,
which were designed to be always stored nib-down?

I neglected to mention in my previous response that desk pen trumpets
are almost always mounted to their bases via some type of pivoting
joint that allows the pen to be placed in a horizontal position. So,
your statement that desk pens were "designed to be *always* stored
nib-down" is incorrect.

I have really said nothing that is not common
knowledge among the cognoscenti.

You're just throwing something out there again without providing any
support for your statement. Who are these cognoscenti who would agree
with you that gold cost $1500/ounce (adjusted for inflation) during
the heyday of fountain pens? Or that the convention of carrying pens
nib up originated to prevent corrosion to nibs rather than to prevent
leaking? Or that soaking entire pens (barrels and caps) doesn't pose
significant risks to metal pen parts and some plastics? That good
examples of hard rubber pens are rare? That carbolic acid (phenols)
used as a preservative in inks are bad for fountain pens? Etc.

Would you agree that Geoff Berliner is one of the cognoscenti? Here's
an article he wrote about leaking:

http://www.berlinerpen.com/library/library.html

Take a look at the paragraph just above the first "BACK TO TOP."

Now, I never said people shouldn't keep their pens in a horizontal
position and, in fact, I stated that I leave mine lying all over the
place (not nib down though). What I took issue with was your advice to
the OP that "It is better to store fountain pens in a horizontal
position or with the nib down." Recall that the OP complained that the
pen he kept in a horizontal position wrote too wet for his tastes. Why
on earth recommend that he keep that pen stored nib down? "Let's
see.... The pen writes too wet when you keep it horizontally, so why
not keep it nib down?!" Doesn't this strike you as being a little
daffy? -- B

On Sun, 12 Nov 2006 13:57:04 -0600, BL wrote
(in article k0L5h.1182$m72.125@trnddc03):

http://www.berlinerpen.com/library/library.html

Thanks for the link, it lead me to a link on "Big Bro" pencils, which shows
that I had properly figured out the problem, a cracked sleeve over the
bushing. His repair, drilling into both and pinning them together is simpler
than my idea (a sleeve over the cracked area) which might have caused
clearance problems with the barrel.

--
Harry F. Leopold
aa #2076
AA/Vet #4
The Prints of Darkness
(remove gene to email)

³I'm sorry, son, but there's nothing we can do for you. There's no cure for
stupid.³ - John Baker

BL a écrit :

"virgiliopoeta" wrote:

It would be quite difficult to put the clip on the
nib end of the barrel, as this would interfere
with writing...

Actually, it was and is done all the time... i.e., by mounting the
clip on the cap which screws onto the nib end of the barrel.


My dear BL, I expressed myself incorrectly. I meant to say that to
mount the clip on the barrel opposite the nib end would be awkward for
writing purposes, as one could not then post the cap.



Gold alloy was reserved for the very best pens.
Gold was VERY dear back then, you know - at least
$1500/oz in current dollas.

Are you aware that this is incorrect? In other words, are you
intentionally making things up?

Gold prices were fairly constant (averaging between about $200 and
$400 an ounce (in inflation-adjusted dollars) from 1900 until the
market started going crazy in the 1970s.

This is not correct. Gold was around $20 until FDR devalued the dollar
in the 30s, after which it was $35 until the 60s. A 1900 dollar was
worth at least 50 current dollars - really more like 75 or 100. If you
doubt this, look at one of the old Sears mail-order catalogs, where new
fountain pens sold for 10 or 15 cents, ink for 4 cents a bottle, and a
_house_ was available for $500 or so. Food however was more expensive -
the 1900 food dollar was worth perhaps only 30 to 50 current dollars.
Wages were $1 to $5 a day, but only 25 cents to $1 in the South.

And you're also mistaken
about gold being reserved for the very best pens. Many second-tier and
lower pens were made with gold alloy nibs... including pens for
students, value pens (e.g., Postal Pens), and even many novelty pens.
Yes, steel was used for nibs, but gold predominated during most of
the fountain pen era.

This statement is simply ridiculous. The vast majority of pens were
certainly never made with gold nibs.

And just
how the heck can a poorly adjusted nib cause a feed to flood? -- B

Again, a strange question, to which I will deign to respond.

You would do better to think carefully before seeking to confute
EVERYTHING I say, as you are making very outrageous claims.

"virgiliopoeta" wrote:

... Gold was around $20 until FDR devalued the
dollar in the 30s, after which it was $35 until
the 60s.

Click on the URL below. Then look at the graph on the bottom of page
6. Once you've had a chance to look at that, we'll chat some more.

http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2000/of00-389/of00-389.pdf

For data historical prices of gold, you can look here.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-...ce-of-gold.htm

Perhaps you have other data? If so, cite it.

There are many cpi calculators on the internet.

Here's one:

http://www.aier.org/research/col.php

And here's another that goes back to 1774.

http://www.measuringworth.com/calculators/ppowerus/

At no point has gold hit the $1500/oz. mark.

A 1900 dollar was worth at least 50 current
dollars - really more like 75 or 100.

No. Actually, a 1900 dollar is worth 23.99 current dollars.

Go here and do the calculations yourself:

http://www.measuringworth.com/calcul...rus/result.php

If you have a cpi calculator or gdp inflator that produces radically
different numbers, post a link.

Again, you're making claims but offering bupkis to substantiate
them. -- B

BL a écrit :

"virgiliopoeta" wrote:

... Gold was around $20 until FDR devalued the
dollar in the 30s, after which it was $35 until
the 60s.


At no point has gold hit the $1500/oz. mark.

Actually, gold hit an intraday high of over $800 back in 1981, which in
current dollars would be well over $2000/oz. There are now about five
times more dollars in circulation than in 1981 by the government's own
figures. They claim absurd increases in productivity, however, in order
to offset this.

A 1900 dollar was worth at least 50 current
dollars - really more like 75 or 100.

No. Actually, a 1900 dollar is worth 23.99 current dollars.

You are perhaps using the US government's inflation figures, which are
notoriously understated for political reasons. If you will compare the
prices for yourself, you will see that my estimate is roughly correct.
Naturally it all depends on what you choose for the comparison, but the
usual goods and services follow the estimate I have given.

I am really not interested in discussing this further with you, given
your propensity for turning everything into a confrontation. You will
not find many people who will put up with you for as long as I have,
you know. I think perhaps you are a teenager, given your lack of good
manners.As you deal with more and more people in life, you will find
that it is best to be polite with everyone you meet, especially
strangers.