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#1
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Question regarding paper
I am told by the SG catalogue that to find out if a stamp is 'chalk surfaced
paper', I just need to use a silver wire. And it leaves a black spot. Simple. Problem is, where can i find a silver wire? Will the black spot be permanent? Is there any other way where i can check if a paper is 'ordinary' or 'chalk surfaced'? To make matters worse, I was also told that through immersion, the chalk surface can be washed away. So, is there other easier way, where I could 'feel' the chalk surfaced papers? Though it is not advisable to touch those precious. Alfred Lee |
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#2
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Question regarding paper
A much easier way I find is to bring the paper to your lips & gently rub
slightly - the chalk surfaced paper will feel colder (& smoother) than the ordinary paper. Obviously with dry lips & try it on some inexpensive stamps first ! Regards, Nick "Alfred Lee" wrote in : I am told by the SG catalogue that to find out if a stamp is 'chalk surfaced paper', I just need to use a silver wire. And it leaves a black spot. Simple. Problem is, where can i find a silver wire? Will the black spot be permanent? Is there any other way where i can check if a paper is 'ordinary' or 'chalk surfaced'? To make matters worse, I was also told that through immersion, the chalk surface can be washed away. So, is there other easier way, where I could 'feel' the chalk surfaced papers? Though it is not advisable to touch those precious. Alfred Lee |
#3
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Question regarding paper
Alfred,
this chalky business dates from the prehistory of our stamps; most stamps - commemoratives in particular - have been printed on coated paper since the 1930-ies; since 1960 hardly any stamp has been without! For the coating several substances could have been used of which "chalk" is just one of them and not necessary the most interesting. It just happened that some philatelists and catalogue makers loved to over-emphasize this chalky-business..... "Ordinary" paper is supposed to be paper without coating and it is usually not shiny at all. But if uncoated paper got calandered {brushed up like shoes without using polish] it may seem to have a coating. It takes specialists to see the difference between a well calandered [satinized] paper and a paper with a thin coating. The would-be specialists of the early 20th century catalogue have long been extinct So do not bother and do not destroy your precious stamps! Rein Op Tue, 30 Mar 2010 04:28:09 +0200 schreef Alfred Lee : I am told by the SG catalogue that to find out if a stamp is 'chalk surfaced paper', I just need to use a silver wire. And it leaves a black spot. Simple. Problem is, where can i find a silver wire? Will the black spot be permanent? Is there any other way where i can check if a paper is 'ordinary' or 'chalk surfaced'? To make matters worse, I was also told that through immersion, the chalk surface can be washed away. So, is there other easier way, where I could 'feel' the chalk surfaced papers? Though it is not advisable to touch those precious. Alfred Lee -- Gemaakt met Opera's revolutionaire e-mailprogramma: http://www.opera.com/mail/ |
#4
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Question regarding paper
Be happy that your bull's eyes aren't chalky!
Op Tue, 30 Mar 2010 16:26:55 +0200 schreef Sir F. A. Rien : Two words on your 'advice' ... B.S. Rein found these unused words: Alfred, this chalky business dates from the prehistory of our stamps; most stamps - commemoratives in particular - have been printed on coated paper since the 1930-ies; since 1960 hardly any stamp has been without! For the coating several substances could have been used of which "chalk" is just one of them and not necessary the most interesting. It just happened that some philatelists and catalogue makers loved to over-emphasize this chalky-business..... "Ordinary" paper is supposed to be paper without coating and it is usually not shiny at all. But if uncoated paper got calandered {brushed up like shoes without using polish] it may seem to have a coating. It takes specialists to see the difference between a well calandered [satinized] paper and a paper with a thin coating. The would-be specialists of the early 20th century catalogue have long been extinct So do not bother and do not destroy your precious stamps! Rein Op Tue, 30 Mar 2010 04:28:09 +0200 schreef Alfred Lee : I am told by the SG catalogue that to find out if a stamp is 'chalk surfaced paper', I just need to use a silver wire. And it leaves a black spot. Simple. Problem is, where can i find a silver wire? Will the black spot be permanent? Is there any other way where i can check if a paper is 'ordinary' or 'chalk surfaced'? To make matters worse, I was also told that through immersion, the chalk surface can be washed away. So, is there other easier way, where I could 'feel' the chalk surfaced papers? Though it is not advisable to touch those precious. Alfred Lee -- Gemaakt met Opera's revolutionaire e-mailprogramma: http://www.opera.com/mail/ |
#5
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Question regarding paper
Goodness Gracious!
Does this all happen in the E.R.???? Supervised by our Sir Doctor? Op Tue, 30 Mar 2010 16:42:28 +0200 schreef Sir F. A. Rien : "Alfred Lee" found these unused words: I am told by the SG catalogue that to find out if a stamp is 'chalk surfaced paper', I just need to use a silver wire. And it leaves a black spot. Simple. Problem is, where can i find a silver wire? Use a small piece from a roll of 'Silver Solder' [good] or buy some from a jeweller [best]. I took 1/8" dowls, drilled a tiny hole in the end and then bent a 3/4" loop of silver wire, placing the ends into the hole with a drop of crazy glue. Wipe the silver with denatured isopropyl upon completion. That way only the rounded end touches the stamp and just the lightest touch will leave a 'grey' line. You hand oils don't transfer to the silver and to the stamp from handling the wire directly. Will the black spot be permanent? A very soft artist or draughtsman's eraser will remove it easily if you make the mark in the 'white' margin, not within the design. Is there any other way where i can check if a paper is 'ordinary' or 'chalk surfaced'? Some claim that there's a subtle difference when see under black light. Some also claim on 30x magnification to be able to 'see' the chalking surface. To make matters worse, I was also told that through immersion, the chalk surface can be washed away. Yes, but so will the design as it's printed ON the surface. Some of the inks are fugitive, so take care. Think about using a 'Stamp Lift' or 'sweat box'. easily made from a plastic box with tight fitting lid. A sponge filling the bottomhalf, a plastic grille next and stamps laid face up on top. The paper adsorbs the water and can be 'slid' off the stamp. So, is there other easier way, where I could 'feel' the chalk surfaced papers? Though it is not advisable to touch those precious. It's advisable not to touch any stamp if possible. Hand oils can transfer to the paper. Understanding the finer points are well worth the effort if you aim for a full understanding of the stamp making process and development. If not, then Smilies and Tuvalu would be better. How about plating? -- Gemaakt met Opera's revolutionaire e-mailprogramma: http://www.opera.com/mail/ |
#6
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Question regarding paper
Guys guys,
I had a problem, and I am greatly thankful to Sir FA Rien, for his help. It has been very informative, and I will definitely be on my way to classify my collection. The prices for ordinary and chalk-surfaced can sometimes be 100 times different. It separates the wheat from the chaff. So, it is important for me to know, both for financial and knowledge reasons. Anyone can have their point of view, and sometimes they say things they shouldnt have. Thats why I always say nothing, if I have nothing good to say. If we call ourselves philatelists, we should endeavor to understand every process and detail where possible. Otherwise, we should just collect Disney or smilies or Tuvalu like Sir suggested. Thanks again to all my fellow philatelists. Alfred "Sir F. A. Rien" wrote in message ... Well, it's better than telling someone not to bother with details of paper, inks and collecting! Kirk Splaat Rein found these unused words: Goodness Gracious! Does this all happen in the E.R.???? Supervised by our Sir Doctor? Op Tue, 30 Mar 2010 16:42:28 +0200 schreef Sir F. A. Rien : "Alfred Lee" found these unused words: I am told by the SG catalogue that to find out if a stamp is 'chalk surfaced paper', I just need to use a silver wire. And it leaves a black spot. Simple. Problem is, where can i find a silver wire? Use a small piece from a roll of 'Silver Solder' [good] or buy some from a jeweller [best]. I took 1/8" dowls, drilled a tiny hole in the end and then bent a 3/4" loop of silver wire, placing the ends into the hole with a drop of crazy glue. Wipe the silver with denatured isopropyl upon completion. That way only the rounded end touches the stamp and just the lightest touch will leave a 'grey' line. You hand oils don't transfer to the silver and to the stamp from handling the wire directly. Will the black spot be permanent? A very soft artist or draughtsman's eraser will remove it easily if you make the mark in the 'white' margin, not within the design. Is there any other way where i can check if a paper is 'ordinary' or 'chalk surfaced'? Some claim that there's a subtle difference when see under black light. Some also claim on 30x magnification to be able to 'see' the chalking surface. To make matters worse, I was also told that through immersion, the chalk surface can be washed away. Yes, but so will the design as it's printed ON the surface. Some of the inks are fugitive, so take care. Think about using a 'Stamp Lift' or 'sweat box'. easily made from a plastic box with tight fitting lid. A sponge filling the bottomhalf, a plastic grille next and stamps laid face up on top. The paper adsorbs the water and can be 'slid' off the stamp. So, is there other easier way, where I could 'feel' the chalk surfaced papers? Though it is not advisable to touch those precious. It's advisable not to touch any stamp if possible. Hand oils can transfer to the paper. Understanding the finer points are well worth the effort if you aim for a full understanding of the stamp making process and development. If not, then Smilies and Tuvalu would be better. How about plating? |
#7
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Question regarding paper
Alfred,
http://foro.filateliaargentina.com.a...p?f=139&t=3729 yours, Rein Op Wed, 31 Mar 2010 03:28:29 +0200 schreef Alfred Lee : Guys guys, I had a problem, and I am greatly thankful to Sir FA Rien, for his help. It has been very informative, and I will definitely be on my way to classify my collection. The prices for ordinary and chalk-surfaced can sometimes be 100 times different. It separates the wheat from the chaff. So, it is important for me to know, both for financial and knowledge reasons. Anyone can have their point of view, and sometimes they say things they shouldnt have. Thats why I always say nothing, if I have nothing good to say. If we call ourselves philatelists, we should endeavor to understand every process and detail where possible. Otherwise, we should just collect Disney or smilies or Tuvalu like Sir suggested. Thanks again to all my fellow philatelists. Alfred "Sir F. A. Rien" wrote in message ... Well, it's better than telling someone not to bother with details of paper, inks and collecting! Kirk Splaat Rein found these unused words: Goodness Gracious! Does this all happen in the E.R.???? Supervised by our Sir Doctor? Op Tue, 30 Mar 2010 16:42:28 +0200 schreef Sir F. A. Rien : "Alfred Lee" found these unused words: I am told by the SG catalogue that to find out if a stamp is 'chalk surfaced paper', I just need to use a silver wire. And it leaves a black spot. Simple. Problem is, where can i find a silver wire? Use a small piece from a roll of 'Silver Solder' [good] or buy some from a jeweller [best]. I took 1/8" dowls, drilled a tiny hole in the end and then bent a 3/4" loop of silver wire, placing the ends into the hole with a drop of crazy glue. Wipe the silver with denatured isopropyl upon completion. That way only the rounded end touches the stamp and just the lightest touch will leave a 'grey' line. You hand oils don't transfer to the silver and to the stamp from handling the wire directly. Will the black spot be permanent? A very soft artist or draughtsman's eraser will remove it easily if you make the mark in the 'white' margin, not within the design. Is there any other way where i can check if a paper is 'ordinary' or 'chalk surfaced'? Some claim that there's a subtle difference when see under black light. Some also claim on 30x magnification to be able to 'see' the chalking surface. To make matters worse, I was also told that through immersion, the chalk surface can be washed away. Yes, but so will the design as it's printed ON the surface. Some of the inks are fugitive, so take care. Think about using a 'Stamp Lift' or 'sweat box'. easily made from a plastic box with tight fitting lid. A sponge filling the bottomhalf, a plastic grille next and stamps laid face up on top. The paper adsorbs the water and can be 'slid' off the stamp. So, is there other easier way, where I could 'feel' the chalk surfaced papers? Though it is not advisable to touch those precious. It's advisable not to touch any stamp if possible. Hand oils can transfer to the paper. Understanding the finer points are well worth the effort if you aim for a full understanding of the stamp making process and development. If not, then Smilies and Tuvalu would be better. How about plating? -- Gemaakt met Opera's revolutionaire e-mailprogramma: http://www.opera.com/mail/ |
#8
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Question regarding paper
SOME (modern) chalky papers can be identified with a uv lamp - because of other substances in the coating. For example the Buildings and Celtic Artefacts series of Ireland. Try comparing known challky and non-chalky examples of the same series under both long and short wave uv to try to establish "control" copies. Note that for some long term definitives there may be more than one chalky and/or non-chalky paper used, and the test may work for some and not the others ! I have not yet got to grips with the Birds of Ireland as there appears to be a multiplicity of different papers here. Malcolm |
#9
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Question regarding paper
Malcolm,
I have already - in some other thread - explained that we should stop using the term "chalky" as it has got nothing to do anymore with our romantic idea of using a silver stick or coin! The stamp papers are coated and the coating may consist of various substances that may be glossy or not, that may react under the UV-lamp or not, etc... You rightly point to the use of both long and short wave UV! It is not enough to use only one! I tried a silver coin and managed to get even a reaction on the reverse of the stamps!!!! http://foro.filateliaargentina.com.a...p?f=139&t=3729 groetjes, Rein Op Sat, 01 May 2010 21:39:49 +0200 schreef malcolm : SOME (modern) chalky papers can be identified with a uv lamp - because of other substances in the coating. For example the Buildings and Celtic Artefacts series of Ireland. Try comparing known challky and non-chalky examples of the same series under both long and short wave uv to try to establish "control" copies. Note that for some long term definitives there may be more than one chalky and/or non-chalky paper used, and the test may work for some and not the others ! I have not yet got to grips with the Birds of Ireland as there appears to be a multiplicity of different papers here. Malcolm -- Gemaakt met Opera's revolutionaire e-mailprogramma: http://www.opera.com/mail/ |
#10
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Question regarding paper
Rein
I do agree. However as long as catalogues insist on using the term " Chalky " I think we have to get to grips with this even if we do not agree with the term. The biggest and original usage, historically, appears to be the King George V era of British Empire- as used in Stanley Gibbons catalogues - and perhaps the term should be used for this particular case only. I would agree with you that the use of the term appears to have become somewhat abused as papers used today have no resemblance whatsoever with those of that era. I have not used the silver test personally on anything - as I would only use it on the margins of a marginal copy - and never on the stamp itself !! Do believe me when I tell you that no UV test I have ever used can differentiate between KG5 papers - and I am willing to believe that the "silver" test is the only one which would work (scientifically). I think that the only test which stands examination is to find a stamp of a series which only appears on one paper ( preferably one stamp for each of the different papers) for use as a control then examine ( by eye ) each copy you receive against these. There are sometimes nuances of shade which differentiate these even when unlisted and sometimes the general appearance of the paper is different. However on used or dirty stamps this is not always helpful. Dated copies can assist but caution should be used with dates just after the issue date of the new version ( or any copies from remote or very rural post offices with projected low usage ). The catalogues appear to be very reluctant to discuss flourescence not related to postal mechanisation, but sometimes the term "chalky" is used to describe this ( presumably someone somewhere used the silver test). A good example of this is the South Africa 1961 definitives - third series ( original design with wmk RSA in triangle dating from 1963 or thereabouts ).This is described in SG as chalky but compare this paper with the 2 earlier series ( Arms wmk and no wmk) under the lamp and the flourescence is very evident. When dealing with a large quantity of these stamps I use the lamp before I even look for a watermark ! Even where these are mentioned exact ( or earliest known) dates are seldom discussed. We have already discussed Rein Netherlands "Queen" definitives issued on on ordinary, flourescent and phosphorescent papers - the phosphorescent is easily dealt with but more precise dating information would be useful for used uncoated/ flourescent examples. I have managed to sort 90% of these , but there are still a few "borderline" cases. On modern stamps another problem is when you have an "all-over" phosphorescent tagging superimposed on stamps which may or may not have been printed on flourescent (or other) coated paper in the first place. I have no real evidence for this but my theory is that the difference in intensity of phosphorescent reaction on modern Italian definitives for example may be as a result of different underlying papers - and I think that even the lw and sw bands on philatelic lamps are too broad to examine this. What you need are lamps which emit ONLY the wavelength which will excite a specific reaction ( and this will be different for every stamp - or at least every chemical used in stamp production). We know I think thanks to you and others much more about modern papers ( and much more technical information is the public domain ), but I fear that due to loss of records ( and lack of scientific records being kept in the first place), and deterioration of papers through time - much about earlier stamps may never be known - especially those of historically "unpopular" countries.Compare the information on Argentinian stamps for example ( how sycophantic am I ?) with that of other South American countries. A lot more scientific basis needs to be used in identifying papers - personally I think that papers is the most difficult of all the areas of philately to get to grips with - it is also the area which the philatelic press seems to be the most reluctant to discuss - perhaps because it is so "difficult". Malcolm |
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