Waterman Charleston FP

Hi there again.
I posted a month or so ago about some problems i was having with a sheaffer
intrigue skipping on the first stroke. Anyhow, i finally returned it to the
shop and got myself a waterman charleston fp from avalon pens.

A very nice pen but on certain paper it seems to skip a tiny bit. Using my
other fp, which is a waterman apostrophe, on the same paper with the same
ink, there is no sign of skipping. I have tried flushing the pen out with 1
part ammonia and 2 parts water and there is no change. Also flushed with
plain water.

I took it to the local pen shop and they said it was fine, but that they
would do a bit of a nib polish on it but that nothing really was wrong with
it. They also said that because it is a gold nib, you need to push on it
more to start the ink flowing, and you have to get it just at the correct
angle. Can anyone tell me if this is correct? With the apostrophe i don't
need to write in any special way - it just flows all of the time on any
paper. Or do i need to take it back to them to have another go at adjusting
the nib??


Cheers

BC

"BC" wrote:
in message u...


I posted a month or so ago about some problems i was having with a
sheaffer intrigue skipping on the first stroke.

Welcome to the world of modern pens.

Anyhow, i finally returned it to the shop and got myself a waterman
charleston fp from avalon pens.

A very nice pen but on certain paper it seems to skip a tiny bit.

Hmmmmm... Skipping in a modern pen. That's unusual. What kind of
paper did it skip on? Not all papers are fountain pen friendly.


I took it to the local pen shop and they said it was fine, but that
they would do a bit of a nib polish on it but that nothing really was
wrong with it.

You should have sent it back to Avalon, or Waterman's U.S. distributor,
and had them swap it out for one that writes properly. Your local shop
shouldn't have to fix a pen they didn't sell.

They also said that because it is a gold nib, you need to push on it
more to start the ink flowing, and you have to get it just at the
correct angle. Can anyone tell me if this is correct?

It is not. You shouldn't have to push on a pen at all to get the ink
flowing. If you have to push (it's called hard starting), there's
something wrong with the pen (probably an improperly ground nib, but
other possibilities exist). Assuming the Charleston has a standard
rounded point (versus an italic, oblique, or stub), the pen should write
without skipping as long as you hold it like you hold your Waterman
Apostrophe.


Or do i need to take it back to them to have another go at adjusting
the nib??

It's hard to tell what's going on with your pen without actually seeing
it in person and trying it out. I don't know what kind of paper it's
skipping on ... could be the paper is contributing to the problem if
what you're using is coated paper. Does the pen skip on plain office
pads like Ampad Gold Fibre or Office Depot pads? This stuff about having
to push on gold nibs to get them to write is nonsense... I have dozens
of pens here that write first time every time without my needing to push
down to get the ink flowing... and I write with a very light touch. If
the nib is improperly ground, all the adjusting in the world isn't going
to help. If the problem is flow, different remedies may be needed. At
any rate, your local pen shop shouldn't be asked to fix a pen they
didn't sell. Next time you go pen shopping, take the paper you like to
write on to that local pen shop and try before you buy. That means not
just dipping the pen, but filling it too. If I were you, I'd send the
Charleston to Richard Binder along with the paper on which the skipping
occurs and let him fiddle with it. You'll have to pay but you'll learn
something (he'll give you feedback about what was wrong with the pen,
paper, or both), and you'll get a pen that works properly--- call your
investment in Richard's services "tuition in the school of life." ---
Bernadette

Or, to paraphrase one of Frank Dubiel's favorite comments, "No pen should
ever require any more pressure than its own weight to start and write, first
time, every time, period. If it doesn't, it is either bad paper (coated,
etc.) or a bad pen. That's it.

SteveE
remembering all the times Frank "directed" me back to reality

[...] They also said that because it is a gold nib, you need to push on it
more to start the ink flowing, and you have to get it just at the correct
angle. Can anyone tell me if this is correct? [...]

This is pure baloney. Either the shop is incompetent or they are just
trying to push you off and get rid of you. From the sound of your post
it appears you're not familiar with how fountain pens work, so you have
one of four ways to go:

1. Fix the pen yourself, which will involve a long process of
familiarization, working on junk pens to get your skills down, and then
finally attacking the current problem pen. Plan on at least a month and
on the purchase of a repair manual and several required tools as well as
a few hours a day to learn. If you want to pursue this method, post
back here and we can get you started. If your pen is itself the cause
of the problem, the fix is likely a simple one, but unfortunately one
that cannot be done without lots of practice (and mistakes) beforehand.

2. Send the pen back immediately for a refund. If the pen is not
writing well (assuming you're holding it "rotationally-centered") then
it had no business leaving the factory in the first place. A lost sale
*and* a return is, on a per-customer basis, the worst scenario for a
dealer and a manufacturer. Some dealers no longer carry certain brands
because of excessive return rates.

3. Send the pen to the manufacturer's repair site and explain exactly
what's wrong, and include a writing sample showing the lack of ink flow
with the bare spots circled and annotated in ballpoint. Every pen sent
back for repair costs the manufacturer money, so the manufacturer will
feel at least some pain, although not as much as he would feel if you
were to go with option 2.

4. Send the pen to a repair man (or woman). You have a better chance of
getting your pen fixed right than you would if you were to choose option
3, but in this case the manufacturer will not get the negative feedback
that he rightly deserves. If you want references, reply to this thread
and you'll get some recommendations right away.

All that said, some fountain pens do better on unfriendly paper than do
others, well-set-up or not. Some of the artsy-craftsy papers with fancy
(read "troublesome") coatings are awful for fountain pen use regardless
of what their manufacturers or retailers say to the contrary. If your
pen writes okay on generic 20-pound copy paper from Staples or OfficeMax
(from the ream, *not* run through the machine), then your pen is fine.
Avoid coated paper at all costs (magazines, paper made
artifically-smooth by coating, multipart forms, register receipts) and
avoid newspaper and other similarly-fibrous paper which can load up a
nib slit with junk.

Finally, overflushing with water will over-clean a pen to the point
where it will need to be broken-in again. Your pen needs to have at
least some slight traces of ink residue present in its guts for it to
work as intended. Fill your pen, then hold it by the far end and let
its tip rest on (not slide on) a paper towel. If the pen can make a dot
a half inch in diameter in less than a minute, then the ink-delivery
system is probably okay and you are looking at a problem with nib
profile or tine alignment or tine spacing or bad paper or bad ink. Or a
combination of some or all of those. BTW, you are using good ink,
right, as opposed to some weird stuff that just happens to work okay in
the other pen?

FWIW, I've had a Charleston since June of last year, and it's been back to
Waterman's service center twice with exactly the problem you're describing.
They "adjusted" the nib the first time, and I had them replace it the second
time with a fine instead of a medium (thinking that they weren't really
doing anything to the first, defective nib) and finally the pen writes
"reasonably" well. I'm getting rid of it anyway--switching exclusively to
vintage pens. I know it's a dead horse, but vintage pens really are a whole
world better.
PU

"QuarterHorseman" wrote in message
...
| [...] They also said that because it is a gold nib, you need to push on
it
| more to start the ink flowing, and you have to get it just at the
correct
| angle. Can anyone tell me if this is correct? [...]
|
| This is pure baloney. Either the shop is incompetent or they are just
| trying to push you off and get rid of you. From the sound of your post
| it appears you're not familiar with how fountain pens work, so you have
| one of four ways to go:
|
| 1. Fix the pen yourself, which will involve a long process of
| familiarization, working on junk pens to get your skills down, and then
| finally attacking the current problem pen. Plan on at least a month and
| on the purchase of a repair manual and several required tools as well as
| a few hours a day to learn. If you want to pursue this method, post
| back here and we can get you started. If your pen is itself the cause
| of the problem, the fix is likely a simple one, but unfortunately one
| that cannot be done without lots of practice (and mistakes) beforehand.
|
| 2. Send the pen back immediately for a refund. If the pen is not
| writing well (assuming you're holding it "rotationally-centered") then
| it had no business leaving the factory in the first place. A lost sale
| *and* a return is, on a per-customer basis, the worst scenario for a
| dealer and a manufacturer. Some dealers no longer carry certain brands
| because of excessive return rates.
|
| 3. Send the pen to the manufacturer's repair site and explain exactly
| what's wrong, and include a writing sample showing the lack of ink flow
| with the bare spots circled and annotated in ballpoint. Every pen sent
| back for repair costs the manufacturer money, so the manufacturer will
| feel at least some pain, although not as much as he would feel if you
| were to go with option 2.
|
| 4. Send the pen to a repair man (or woman). You have a better chance of
| getting your pen fixed right than you would if you were to choose option
| 3, but in this case the manufacturer will not get the negative feedback
| that he rightly deserves. If you want references, reply to this thread
| and you'll get some recommendations right away.
|
| All that said, some fountain pens do better on unfriendly paper than do
| others, well-set-up or not. Some of the artsy-craftsy papers with fancy
| (read "troublesome") coatings are awful for fountain pen use regardless
| of what their manufacturers or retailers say to the contrary. If your
| pen writes okay on generic 20-pound copy paper from Staples or OfficeMax
| (from the ream, *not* run through the machine), then your pen is fine.
| Avoid coated paper at all costs (magazines, paper made
| artifically-smooth by coating, multipart forms, register receipts) and
| avoid newspaper and other similarly-fibrous paper which can load up a
| nib slit with junk.
|
| Finally, overflushing with water will over-clean a pen to the point
| where it will need to be broken-in again. Your pen needs to have at
| least some slight traces of ink residue present in its guts for it to
| work as intended. Fill your pen, then hold it by the far end and let
| its tip rest on (not slide on) a paper towel. If the pen can make a dot
| a half inch in diameter in less than a minute, then the ink-delivery
| system is probably okay and you are looking at a problem with nib
| profile or tine alignment or tine spacing or bad paper or bad ink. Or a
| combination of some or all of those. BTW, you are using good ink,
| right, as opposed to some weird stuff that just happens to work okay in
| the other pen?
|

"BC" writes:

I took it to the local pen shop and they said it was fine, but that
they would do a bit of a nib polish on it but that nothing really
was wrong with it. They also said that because it is a gold nib, you
need to push on it more to start the ink flowing, and you have to
get it just at the correct angle. Can anyone tell me if this is
correct?

No, this is not correct. You should never have to "push" on the nib
to get it to write. The nib or feed are incorrectly adjusted, or the
nib is incorrectly ground.

ISTR that Richard Binder's pen site has some excellent diagrams and
discussion in this regard. www.richardspens.com (?) The late Frank
Dubiel's "Da Book" also covers this- you can get a copy at
Pendemonium, Fountain Pen Hospital and other places.

I got an Etalon recently as a gift. Made like a watch, very precise,
fits my hand just fine, starts instantly, nib perfectly-adjusted. Only
one problem: the factory forgot to radius the nib slit after the
slitting machine went through. So we have a pen up in the hundreds of
dollars that writes no smoother than a two-dollar Sheaffer cartridge
pen. Nice going, Waterman. Will I send it back? Nope, I'll keep it as
an example of Waterman quality at their mid-to-high end and will use it
to show to others contemplating the purchase of this model.

Speaking of factory QC problems, how 'bout a Conklin Glider received
with the clip separated from the cap, I mean actually floating around
loose inside the box? Amazing how little the factory cares. A small
piece of the cap split off as I was installing the clip and gluing it
into place. Pen writes great after a slight nib adjustment, and yeah,
I'll show that one to others so they know what they might get if they
order that model. The bright side is that I now have another pen to go
riding with and I don't have to worry about wrecking it if I fall off!

Perhaps some will say I'm a curmudgeon, because I've posted this before.
But we shouldn't accept anything (fountain pens, computers, automobiles,
shoes) that don't function the way they are supposed to. Return it to
Avalon, and get another.

Cordially,
LL

BC wrote:
Hi there again.
I posted a month or so ago about some problems i was having with a sheaffer
intrigue skipping on the first stroke. Anyhow, i finally returned it to the
shop and got myself a waterman charleston fp from avalon pens.

A very nice pen but on certain paper it seems to skip a tiny bit. Using my
other fp, which is a waterman apostrophe, on the same paper with the same
ink, there is no sign of skipping. I have tried flushing the pen out with 1
part ammonia and 2 parts water and there is no change. Also flushed with
plain water.

I took it to the local pen shop and they said it was fine, but that they
would do a bit of a nib polish on it but that nothing really was wrong with
it. They also said that because it is a gold nib, you need to push on it
more to start the ink flowing, and you have to get it just at the correct
angle. Can anyone tell me if this is correct? With the apostrophe i don't
need to write in any special way - it just flows all of the time on any
paper. Or do i need to take it back to them to have another go at adjusting
the nib??


Cheers

BC

QuarterHorseman writes:

I got an Etalon recently as a gift. Made like a watch, very
precise, fits my hand just fine, starts instantly, nib
perfectly-adjusted. Only one problem: the factory forgot to radius
the nib slit after the slitting machine went through. So we have a
pen up in the hundreds of dollars that writes no smoother than a
two-dollar Sheaffer cartridge pen. Nice going, Waterman. Will I
send it back? Nope, I'll keep it as an example of Waterman quality
at their mid-to-high end and will use it to show to others
contemplating the purchase of this model.

But it's easily fixable. There's probably just a tiny burr on the
"iridium" that needs to be taken off.

Speaking of factory QC problems, how 'bout a Conklin Glider received
with the clip separated from the cap, I mean actually floating
around loose inside the box? Amazing how little the factory cares.
A small piece of the cap split off as I was installing the clip and
gluing it into place. Pen writes great after a slight nib
adjustment, and yeah, I'll show that one to others so they know what
they might get if they order that model. The bright side is that I
now have another pen to go riding with and I don't have to worry
about wrecking it if I fall off!

And why is it that you didn't return this obvious factory defect?
This makes no sense to me. QC problems in modern pens are well
known, as has been pointed out in this newsgroup. Heck, even
advertising photos of pens seen in Pen World Magazine have been
observed to have defects! Most pen companies are owned by people who
*don't* care about pens.

Tim McNamara wrote:

QuarterHorseman writes:


I got an Etalon recently as a gift. Made like a watch, very
precise, fits my hand just fine, starts instantly, nib
perfectly-adjusted. Only one problem: the factory forgot to radius
the nib slit after the slitting machine went through. So we have a
pen up in the hundreds of dollars that writes no smoother than a
two-dollar Sheaffer cartridge pen. Nice going, Waterman. Will I
send it back? Nope, I'll keep it as an example of Waterman quality
at their mid-to-high end and will use it to show to others
contemplating the purchase of this model.


But it's easily fixable. There's probably just a tiny burr on the
"iridium" that needs to be taken off.


No. The nib slit is not radiused. The tipping material is clean.


Speaking of factory QC problems, how 'bout a Conklin Glider received
with the clip separated from the cap, I mean actually floating
around loose inside the box? [...]

And why is it that you didn't return this obvious factory defect?
This makes no sense to me.

Because I can kick more butt my way, i.e. showing it around to people
contemplating the purchase.

QC problems in modern pens are well
known, as has been pointed out in this newsgroup.

Tell me about it. Been doing this for ten years. You're preaching to
the choir, my friend.

Heck, even
advertising photos of pens seen in Pen World Magazine have been
observed to have defects! Most pen companies are owned by people who
*don't* care about pens.

If the average product is any indicator, then I'd have to agree with
that. On the one hand I believe my $$$ ought to buy a higher quality
level; on the other hand, if all the pens came through fine, there'd be
nothing for me to fix (and I do enjoy that).