let's look at this objectively...

Wow, this bickering is really getting silly... spring is coming, get
out and get some fresh air.

OK, here's my two cents on this coin:

1) Yeah, of course, it is a 95% given that it was REALLY BAD for this
coin's marketability (and/or collector value, if those are the same)
to crack the coin out of the slab and polish it up some more. There's
no doubt about that. For what it's worth, that must have been some
deep breath he took before breaking out the pliers or whatever he
used... :-

2) Now, as far whether to trust this guy when he says this was the
coin in that slab... that's up for debate, to be decided in the end on
an individual basis. Beisdes that, there MAY be a TANGIBLE way to see
whether this was that coin. Very, very simple. If this was your coin,
wouldn't you have taken and kept pictures of it BEFORE it was cracked
out, just to have them if this question ever arose?? See if the seller
has the "BEFORE" photos and compare for major identifying marks. While
this is certainly not concrete evidence, it would hard to make the
SAME EXACT SHAPE mark to fake it. For example, there is a hit just to
the SW of Liberty's earlobe on the cheek... there are a couple other
scattered marks which should help ID the coin if comparing it to old
pictures. OK, OK, you could go really crazy and get into whether the
pics were played with pixel-wise, etc., etc., But I think you get my
point. And if he doesn't have the "BEFORE" pics saved, well then, he
is a COMPLETE idiot and this isn't even worth debating...

3) As an aside, someone posted an interesting point. To me, there are
times when one of the ANACS "Net grade" slabbed coins may be improved
on by breaking them out and trying to clean/conserve/whatever them. I
know a lot of people are cringing reading that, but not all of those
coins have had gentle, old light cleanings that have retoned to where
you can barely notice it. Some of them have get "dirty frost" and
badly uneven dark toning/spots and are just plain UGLY to anyone's
eyes!!! I actually cracked out an ANACS 1921-P Morgan that was a
straight MS-61 because it had some ugly watery-looking tone spots on
it. Broke that bad boy free, gave it the quick dip, and (in my mind at
least) got a much better looking coin. Now, of course, that's only
worth $20.00... :-

But of course, that is a BIG, BIG, BIG risk to take with a coin of
this value, one you have almost ZERO chance of benefitting from. I'm
also guessing this coin couldn't have been that bad to begin with b/c
it was only Net-graded down to EF-45. If the coin had even OK eye
appeal to begin, this was really dumb by him, but I didn't see it with
my own eyes, so I can't say for sure.

In the end, people, don't be so damn snippy! It's ONLY a little piece
of metal in the end... have perspective. If all the old collector
coins of the world were thrown into a 2000 degree fire and melted, the
world would not end!!! This is starting to sound like "MTV: The Real
World - Coin edition". Yeesh -- TOO MUCH DRAMA!!!!

OK, I'm done now...

(b-rock) wrote in
om:

Wow, this bickering is really getting silly... spring is coming,
get out and get some fresh air.

OK, here's my two cents on this coin:

snip

OK, I'm done now...


I'm missing the point of this post. You don't include a link to a
picture of a coin, or auction. You seem to be replying to some other
post(s), but this appears to me to be a new thread, not a continuation
of an existing thread.

Maybe it's my newsreader. Can you fill me/us in on what coin you're
talking about, and what OP this post is referring to?

Thanks!

--
Eric Babula
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA

In article ,
(b-rock) writes:

Wow, this bickering is really getting silly... spring is coming, get
out and get some fresh air.

The "fresh air" in Eastern Iowa late this morning is running around 20F and
falling with winds running 25-40 mph and gusts to 56 mph. Oh, and occasional
snow showers...

I'd rather bicker...;-)

Seriously, there are some who bicker and others who simply believe that when
errors are posted as fact, they need to be corrected and documented. I do it
when I have time, and given the wind chill this morning, I have the time.

You, on the other hand, are not being forced to read what I (or others)
write...
You are questioning some statements made about the coin (by the way, it's
obvious you're talking about the cleaned coin (1893-S Morgan) at

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=39 465

in the thread initiated by a poster titled "I'm so embarassed to have this guy
for a neighbor". The coin has been sold for $12,600 in spite of a cleaning
given by the seller which he discloses in the listing. Although he indicates
"all sales are final", he has a 99% positive FB and makes a full disclosure
with multiple pictures. I believe he will allow returns if the coin is not the
one pictured, but I haven't checked on that. Not likely that he would switch
coins given his ongoing ebay presence and the serious consequences of that kind
of fraud. No doubt the bidders felt that owning a fully struck specimen, even
with an obvious cleaning was ok. In the course of the thread, it was suggested
that the seller could be guilty of fraudulent and illegal actions, a viewpoint
with which I disagree. A least one person thought otherwise and expressed the
belief that I "must be retarted" or have "alterior" motives.

For the record, neither is true, so I simply corrected the spelling and moved
on, but I do tend to get involved when hysteria and mob mentality is showing
signs of taking over. This, I suppose, makes me a lightening rod for those who
enjoy such things.

So be it.

If it bothers you, hit the spacebar and you won't have to see it.

When the weather improves, you may not even need to do that...;-)

Dondi3



DONDI enterprises. BUY, SELL, TRADE. RARE COINS & PRECIOUS METALS
Member COINNET, CSNS, ANA, INA, MOON, ILNA.

wrote:

The coin has been sold for $12,600 in spite of a cleaning
given by the seller which he discloses in the listing

No doubt the bidders felt that owning a fully struck specimen, even
with an obvious cleaning was ok.

Don't you think it would be prudent to wait and find out if the coin has really
been sold before using that as proof of your argument?

Eric mentioned earlier in the other thread that many of the bids may have been
fake bids coming from participants in the PCGS forum.

Personally, I would wait to see if feedback were left for this auction,
something that hasn't happened yet.


++++++++++
Phil DeMayo - always here for my fellow Stooge
When bidding online always sit on your helmet
Just say NO to counterfeits

On 11 Mar 2004 05:51:59 -0800, (b-rock) wrote:

Wow, this bickering is really getting silly... spring is coming, get
out and get some fresh air.

OK, here's my two cents on this coin:

1) Yeah, of course, it is a 95% given that it was REALLY BAD for this
coin's marketability (and/or collector value, if those are the same)
to crack the coin out of the slab and polish it up some more. There's
no doubt about that. For what it's worth, that must have been some
deep breath he took before breaking out the pliers or whatever he
used... :-

2) Now, as far whether to trust this guy when he says this was the
coin in that slab... that's up for debate, to be decided in the end on
an individual basis. Beisdes that, there MAY be a TANGIBLE way to see
whether this was that coin. Very, very simple. If this was your coin,
wouldn't you have taken and kept pictures of it BEFORE it was cracked
out, just to have them if this question ever arose?? See if the seller
has the "BEFORE" photos and compare for major identifying marks. While
this is certainly not concrete evidence, it would hard to make the
SAME EXACT SHAPE mark to fake it. For example, there is a hit just to
the SW of Liberty's earlobe on the cheek... there are a couple other
scattered marks which should help ID the coin if comparing it to old
pictures. OK, OK, you could go really crazy and get into whether the
pics were played with pixel-wise, etc., etc., But I think you get my
point. And if he doesn't have the "BEFORE" pics saved, well then, he
is a COMPLETE idiot and this isn't even worth debating...

3) As an aside, someone posted an interesting point. To me, there are
times when one of the ANACS "Net grade" slabbed coins may be improved
on by breaking them out and trying to clean/conserve/whatever them. I
know a lot of people are cringing reading that, but not all of those
coins have had gentle, old light cleanings that have retoned to where
you can barely notice it. Some of them have get "dirty frost" and
badly uneven dark toning/spots and are just plain UGLY to anyone's
eyes!!! I actually cracked out an ANACS 1921-P Morgan that was a
straight MS-61 because it had some ugly watery-looking tone spots on
it. Broke that bad boy free, gave it the quick dip, and (in my mind at
least) got a much better looking coin. Now, of course, that's only
worth $20.00... :-

But of course, that is a BIG, BIG, BIG risk to take with a coin of
this value, one you have almost ZERO chance of benefitting from. I'm
also guessing this coin couldn't have been that bad to begin with b/c
it was only Net-graded down to EF-45. If the coin had even OK eye
appeal to begin, this was really dumb by him, but I didn't see it with
my own eyes, so I can't say for sure.

In the end, people, don't be so damn snippy! It's ONLY a little piece
of metal in the end... have perspective. If all the old collector
coins of the world were thrown into a 2000 degree fire and melted, the
world would not end!!! This is starting to sound like "MTV: The Real
World - Coin edition". Yeesh -- TOO MUCH DRAMA!!!!

OK, I'm done now...

Even you seem to have missed the point of the thread. The point was
this seller is an IDIOT for taking a very market acceptable coin and basically
destroying it.

There was only one person in that thread who was bickering, and as he
usually does, took statements out of context and implied things were said
when they were not.

Of course, I am always amazed when someone starts a new thread like
this, complaining about another thread. If you don't like the way a particular
thread is going, ignore it. Don't start another one about it.

--
K6AZ WEB PAGES

http://www.k6az.com/web_pages.htm

In article ,
ulsion (Phil DeMayo) writes:


wrote:

The coin has been sold for $12,600 in spite of a cleaning
given by the seller which he discloses in the listing

No doubt the bidders felt that owning a fully struck specimen, even
with an obvious cleaning was ok.

Don't you think it would be prudent to wait and find out if the coin has
really been sold before using that as proof of your argument?

Prudence has left the building.

Really, I'm not using it as proof of anything...guess you could call it what
another
poster has termed "just an observation"...so it doesn't really mean anything
and
one incurs no responsibility in making such "observations"...;-)


Eric mentioned earlier in the other thread that many of the bids may have
been fake bids coming from participants in the PCGS forum.

That's a pretty severe indictment of those who participate there, isn't it?
Perhaps Ebay would be interested in any direct knowledge anyone might
be willing to volunteer regarding those who would participate in such a
conspiracy.

Personally, I would wait to see if feedback were left for this auction,
something that hasn't happened yet.

All I know is this whole discussion gets more weird with each passing day.
Normally conscientious people seem to be willing to forego reason & common
sense, and even are at odds with black & white dictionary defintions. I guess
it wouldn't
surprise me to find out that grown men are participating in an illegal and
shameful
plot to interfere with a bonafide business transaction. I only hope, if its
true, that
the e-thugs are found out and punished. It's vigilante action at its worst, I
guess.

dondi3





DONDI enterprises. BUY, SELL, TRADE. RARE COINS & PRECIOUS METALS
Member COINNET, CSNS, ANA, INA, MOON, ILNA.

Sorry, didn't mean to start a new thread, meant to tag it on to the
400+ posts posts on the other thread :- Must've clicked "post new
message" by mistake instead of.

It's pretty much correct that the, all else being equal, the 1893-S
shouldn't have been cracked out of the slab, yeah. I was just raising
some points, just for people's consideration...

And one more thing, two people have said something along the lines of
"if you don't like it, don't read it". Well, thing is, yeah you
(generic you, saying "one ought..." is pretentious...) or I or anyone
can just not look. And I have a good sense of humor, trust me.
Watching coin people bicker with each other by seeing who can be more
witty and loquacious is actually pretty funny. I used to have penny
fights in college, but that was a different story... But after a
while, it gets to be a turn-off from bothering with this group in
general. People come here to read about coin stuff, not people being
petty.

Anyway, whaddya suppose that coin goes back into an ANACS slab as???
(net grade...). Would be funny in a way if somehow it made it back to
EF-45...


Even you seem to have missed the point of the thread. The point was
this seller is an IDIOT for taking a very market acceptable coin and basically
destroying it.

There was only one person in that thread who was bickering, and as he
usually does, took statements out of context and implied things were said
when they were not.

Of course, I am always amazed when someone starts a new thread like
this, complaining about another thread. If you don't like the way a particular
thread is going, ignore it. Don't start another one about it.

--
K6AZ WEB PAGES

http://www.k6az.com/web_pages.htm

On 12 Mar 2004 08:52:39 -0800, (b-rock) wrote:

Anyway, whaddya suppose that coin goes back into an ANACS slab as???
(net grade...). Would be funny in a way if somehow it made it back to
EF-45...

With the added polishing and severe hairlines, I suspect it would now net
grade VF.

Take a look at what this seller has up right now. With the exception of
the 79-CC ANACS Morgan, all the other coins are coins that are commonly
altered or counterfeited. These type of coins should not be purchased
sight unseen, raw, and from an unknown seller.

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...serious coins
--
K6AZ WEB PAGES

http://www.k6az.com/web_pages.htm