Copyright images on stamps

I have sent the following question to the Copyright Licensing Agency
in the UK (our equivalent of Copy-Dan in Denmark):

"I wish to create a website where I would post scans of postage stamps
on the theme of famous paintings. The website would be for the benefit
of stamp collectors who collect such stamps (known as thematic
collecting as distinct from collecting the stamps of one country). The
site would be a free service and open to be visited by anyone with
internet access.

I presume that the postal authorities concerned have obtained any
necessary permissions for their use of the paintings from the artists
concerned or from their estates where the paintings are still in
copyright. Indeed, the postal authorities concerned may well own a
separate copyright in the overall stamp design (image, plus added
features such as postal value, name of country of origin, etc.)

Do I need to obtain a license from you on behalf of the original
artists for my use of such stamp images? Or is it sufficient if I
obtain any necessary permissions from the postal authorities
concerned?"

I will let the group know what answer I get.

Douglas Myall



--
Outgoing messages and attachments are checked by an up-to-date Norton
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"Douglas Myall" wrote in message
...
I have sent the following question to the Copyright Licensing Agency
in the UK (our equivalent of Copy-Dan in Denmark):

"I wish to create a website where I would post scans of postage stamps
on the theme of famous paintings. The website would be for the benefit
of stamp collectors who collect such stamps (known as thematic
collecting as distinct from collecting the stamps of one country). The
site would be a free service and open to be visited by anyone with
internet access.

I presume that the postal authorities concerned have obtained any
necessary permissions for their use of the paintings from the artists
concerned or from their estates where the paintings are still in
copyright. Indeed, the postal authorities concerned may well own a
separate copyright in the overall stamp design (image, plus added
features such as postal value, name of country of origin, etc.)

Do I need to obtain a license from you on behalf of the original
artists for my use of such stamp images? Or is it sufficient if I
obtain any necessary permissions from the postal authorities
concerned?"

I will let the group know what answer I get.

Douglas Myall

Great idea, Douglas!

Unfortunately (or maybe not), for me it is a bit too late to ask such a
question.

BTW, if the UK Copyright Licensing Agency says that you don't need a license
from them then you have the moral obligation to publish a famous paintings
website. Just let me know in case you'll need some help but be warned that
if you start with this, you take the risk of neglecting the Machins. :-)

--
Victor Manta

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Philatelic Webmasters Organization: http://www.pwmo.org/
Art on Stamps: http://www.values.ch/
Romania by Stamps: http://www.marci-postale.com/
Communism on Stamps: http://www.values.ch/communism/
Spanish North Africa: http://www.values.ch/sna-site/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Douglas Myall" wrote in message
...
I have sent the following question to the Copyright Licensing Agency
in the UK (our equivalent of Copy-Dan in Denmark):

"I wish to create a website where I would post scans of postage
stamps
on the theme of famous paintings. The website would be for the
benefit
of stamp collectors who collect such stamps (known as thematic
collecting as distinct from collecting the stamps of one country).
The
site would be a free service and open to be visited by anyone with
internet access.

I presume that the postal authorities concerned have obtained any
necessary permissions for their use of the paintings from the
artists
concerned or from their estates where the paintings are still in
copyright. Indeed, the postal authorities concerned may well own a
separate copyright in the overall stamp design (image, plus added
features such as postal value, name of country of origin, etc.)

Do I need to obtain a license from you on behalf of the original
artists for my use of such stamp images? Or is it sufficient if I
obtain any necessary permissions from the postal authorities
concerned?"

I will let the group know what answer I get.

Douglas Myall
-------------------------------------------

I received the following reply this morning:

"Dear Mr Myall

Thank you for your recent enquiry. CLA issues licenses to
organisations to
photocopy from books and journals, therefore we cannot help you.

If you wish to use material from copyright works, you must in each
case
first obtain permission from the copyright holder (who may normally be
contacted through the publishers of the edition from which you wish to
copy).

If you require further information about copyright please contact the
Copyright Directorate at:
Harmworth House
Bouverie Street
London EC4Y 8DP
www.patent.gov.uk
020 7596 6514

Yours sincerely,

Elizabeth Cahill

The Copyright Licensing Agency Ltd
90 Tottenham Court Road
London W1T 4LP
020 7631 5555
www.cla.co.uk

------------------

It is quite clear that this organisation is not interested in chasing
me on behalf of the artists.

On the question of copyright as the law is applied in the UK I would,
if I were minded to pursue my `project', apply to the relevant postal
administrations for permission to reproduce their stamp images,
whether the original painting was in copyright or not. In cases where
the original painting was still in copyright, I would, at the same
time, enquire of the relevant postal administrations whether there was
any clause in their own license which prevent my copying their (not
the aritst's) image.

The replies might make interesting reading.

If I went ahead with my `project' and published the stamp images
without asking the question of postal authorities or abiding by any
answers I received I might expect to find myself in some difficulty.

Douglas

















--
Outgoing messages and attachments are checked by an up-to-date
Norton
AV professional but you are advised to pass attachments through your
own AV checker before opening them.

"Douglas Myall" wrote in message
...

"Douglas Myall" wrote in message
...
I have sent the following question to the Copyright Licensing Agency
in the UK (our equivalent of Copy-Dan in Denmark):

"I wish to create a website where I would post scans of postage
stamps
on the theme of famous paintings. The website would be for the
benefit
of stamp collectors who collect such stamps (known as thematic
collecting as distinct from collecting the stamps of one country).
The
site would be a free service and open to be visited by anyone with
internet access.

I presume that the postal authorities concerned have obtained any
necessary permissions for their use of the paintings from the
artists
concerned or from their estates where the paintings are still in
copyright. Indeed, the postal authorities concerned may well own a
separate copyright in the overall stamp design (image, plus added
features such as postal value, name of country of origin, etc.)

Do I need to obtain a license from you on behalf of the original
artists for my use of such stamp images? Or is it sufficient if I
obtain any necessary permissions from the postal authorities
concerned?"

I will let the group know what answer I get.

Douglas Myall
-------------------------------------------

I received the following reply this morning:

"Dear Mr Myall

Thank you for your recent enquiry. CLA issues licenses to
organisations to
photocopy from books and journals, therefore we cannot help you.

If you wish to use material from copyright works, you must in each
case
first obtain permission from the copyright holder (who may normally be
contacted through the publishers of the edition from which you wish to
copy).

If you require further information about copyright please contact the
Copyright Directorate at:
Harmworth House
Bouverie Street
London EC4Y 8DP
www.patent.gov.uk
020 7596 6514

Yours sincerely,

Elizabeth Cahill

The Copyright Licensing Agency Ltd
90 Tottenham Court Road
London W1T 4LP
020 7631 5555
www.cla.co.uk

------------------

It is quite clear that this organisation is not interested in chasing
me on behalf of the artists.

On the question of copyright as the law is applied in the UK I would,
if I were minded to pursue my `project', apply to the relevant postal
administrations for permission to reproduce their stamp images,
whether the original painting was in copyright or not. In cases where
the original painting was still in copyright, I would, at the same
time, enquire of the relevant postal administrations whether there was
any clause in their own license which prevent my copying their (not
the aritst's) image.

The replies might make interesting reading.

If I went ahead with my `project' and published the stamp images
without asking the question of postal authorities or abiding by any
answers I received I might expect to find myself in some difficulty.

Douglas


That is interesting Douglas. I would guess therefore that in the UK there
is no organisation that collects fees on behalf of owners of copyright in
art works (the Newspaper Licensing Agency - www.nla.co.uk - performs a
similar role to the CLA in respect of newspaper extracts) and so the only
recourse would be to seek the permission of the Post Office to reproduce UK
stamp images, and to view consent as indicating that no other permissions
would be required.

I am just back from holiday, and I have not fully read the long threads on
this subject, but a huge number of issues have been raised which in many
cases have not been determined anywhere by the courts.

One issue that I have not investigated is whether any copyright is
enforceable in a country in which the work was not created if that work does
not bear the (c) symbol as required under the Paris copyright conventions.
If it did it would be as the result of a derogation from the normal
requirement, and without looking into it I am not aware of anything. I
increasingly see the (c) symbol printed on stamps but this was not generally
the case only a few years ago and it is possible that copyright in those
stamps - or the images appearing on them - is not enforceable outside the
country in which they were issued.

Something else that I should comment on is that the "fair dealing"
provisions relating to copyright works have been greatly tightened up in the
UK in the past few years and I doubt whether such provisions would now be of
much value to us.

Regards

Roger

major snip

That is interesting Douglas. I would guess therefore that in the UK
there
is no organisation that collects fees on behalf of owners of
copyright in
art works (the Newspaper Licensing Agency - www.nla.co.uk - performs
a
similar role to the CLA in respect of newspaper extracts) and so the
only
recourse would be to seek the permission of the Post Office to
reproduce UK
stamp images, and to view consent as indicating that no other
permissions
would be required.

I am just back from holiday, and I have not fully read the long
threads on
this subject, but a huge number of issues have been raised which in
many
cases have not been determined anywhere by the courts.

One issue that I have not investigated is whether any copyright is
enforceable in a country in which the work was not created if that
work does
not bear the (c) symbol as required under the Paris copyright
conventions.
If it did it would be as the result of a derogation from the normal
requirement, and without looking into it I am not aware of anything.
I
increasingly see the (c) symbol printed on stamps but this was not
generally
the case only a few years ago and it is possible that copyright in
those
stamps - or the images appearing on them - is not enforceable
outside the
country in which they were issued.

Something else that I should comment on is that the "fair dealing"
provisions relating to copyright works have been greatly tightened
up in the
UK in the past few years and I doubt whether such provisions would
now be of
much value to us.

Regards

Roger

I agree with much of what you say, Roger although I think it would be
taking a risk to assume that Royal Mail's lawyers had the right to
grant sublicenses. (See my earlier post.)

The use of the copyright symbol, a capital letter C in a circle, is
unnecessary in countries which adhere to the Berne Union, e.g., the
UK. The requirement to use the symbol appears in the Universal
Copyright Convention . For example, the USA joined the UCC in 1952 and
the Berne Union in 1989. From the latter date, it is no longer
necessary to use the symbol on works published there (since copyright
exists on publication without any claim to it being necessary).
However, many people, both in the USA and elsewhere, still use the
symbol just to be on the safe side or out of habit.

Douglas

Douglas Myall wrote:

The use of the copyright symbol, a capital letter C in a circle, is
unnecessary in countries which adhere to the Berne Union, e.g., the
UK.

(snip)

However, many people, both in the USA and elsewhere, still use the
symbol just to be on the safe side or out of habit.

Bank of England banknotes nowadays have the copyright symbol on them; I
recall reading that it was announced as being a precaution, so that
counterfeiters could be sued for breach of copyright if necessary.
Though, from what you say, it's superfluous anyway.

--
John Ray, London UK.

"John Ray" wrote in message
...
Douglas Myall wrote:

The use of the copyright symbol, a capital letter C in a circle,
is
unnecessary in countries which adhere to the Berne Union, e.g.,
the
UK.

(snip)

However, many people, both in the USA and elsewhere, still use the
symbol just to be on the safe side or out of habit.

Bank of England banknotes nowadays have the copyright symbol on
them; I
recall reading that it was announced as being a precaution, so that
counterfeiters could be sued for breach of copyright if necessary.
Though, from what you say, it's superfluous anyway.

--
John Ray, London UK.

If you have someone dead to rights for forgery I cannot see anyone
bothering to sue one of the culprits (the platemaker) for copyright
infringement as well. Counterfeiting is a criminal offence,
infringement of copyright is a civil offence. They would have to be
quite separate proceedings in different courts.

Douglas

"Douglas Myall" wrote in message
...

major snip

That is interesting Douglas. I would guess therefore that in the UK
there
is no organisation that collects fees on behalf of owners of
copyright in
art works (the Newspaper Licensing Agency - www.nla.co.uk - performs
a
similar role to the CLA in respect of newspaper extracts) and so the
only
recourse would be to seek the permission of the Post Office to
reproduce UK
stamp images, and to view consent as indicating that no other
permissions
would be required.

I am just back from holiday, and I have not fully read the long
threads on
this subject, but a huge number of issues have been raised which in
many
cases have not been determined anywhere by the courts.

One issue that I have not investigated is whether any copyright is
enforceable in a country in which the work was not created if that
work does
not bear the (c) symbol as required under the Paris copyright
conventions.
If it did it would be as the result of a derogation from the normal
requirement, and without looking into it I am not aware of anything.
I
increasingly see the (c) symbol printed on stamps but this was not
generally
the case only a few years ago and it is possible that copyright in
those
stamps - or the images appearing on them - is not enforceable
outside the
country in which they were issued.

Something else that I should comment on is that the "fair dealing"
provisions relating to copyright works have been greatly tightened
up in the
UK in the past few years and I doubt whether such provisions would
now be of
much value to us.

Regards

Roger

I agree with much of what you say, Roger although I think it would be
taking a risk to assume that Royal Mail's lawyers had the right to
grant sublicenses. (See my earlier post.)


Douglas

My point (which I didn't explain properly) was that the PO lawyers would not
grant a licence unless they knew they had a right to do so. I do not think
we disagree though.

By the way, and taking up a point you have made later, blatant copyright
infringement is a criminal, as well as a civil, offence in some
circumstances - for example where the perpetrators operate printing presses
to churn out pirate CDs and the like in great quantity.

Regards, Roger