Curious Question on Pen Quality

I don't know anything about fountain pens. I've been reading a bit and
looking at pictures. Here's my question. Is there a nominal dollar amount
that you can spend above which there is no real difference in the physical
writing experience? I guess I'm asking where is the breakpoint between when
you are paying for the barrel of the pen and not getting any bang for the
buck in the nib? For example, a Mont Blanc ballpoint refill costs about $5,
the barrel may cost the other $180. So if I could buy a $10 pen with a Mont
Blanc refill it would be as good a Mont Blanc experience as I would ever get
for more money.

Why ask the question? I understand you get what you pay for, but I'm not
wanting to buy barrels.

Thoughts?

Thanks.

Prometheus7 wrote:

I don't know anything about fountain pens. I've been reading a bit and
looking at pictures. Here's my question. Is there a nominal dollar amount
that you can spend above which there is no real difference in the physical
writing experience? I guess I'm asking where is the breakpoint between when
you are paying for the barrel of the pen and not getting any bang for the
buck in the nib? For example, a Mont Blanc ballpoint refill costs about $5,
the barrel may cost the other $180. So if I could buy a $10 pen with a Mont
Blanc refill it would be as good a Mont Blanc experience as I would ever get
for more money.

Why ask the question? I understand you get what you pay for, but I'm not
wanting to buy barrels.

In a roller or ballpoint pen the "pen" is NOTHING more than a refill
holder. The quality of writing is dertermined by the refill. Its the
same refill if the pen costs ten bucks or 1000 bucks.

There may or may not be some difference in balance and feel of the
refill holder, but in many, perhaps most cases, the cheaper pen may have
the better of those.

However your question lacks some logic since you ask about fountain pens
then go into ballpoints. Although even in fourntain pens no pen on
earth made today, on average, can write as well as a Pelikan GO for ten
bucks and many other pens in the 10-25 price range such as low end
Cross, Parker 45, Waterman Philias and so on. Many, probably most far
more expensive pens won't write as well in fact.

Pay much over $25 to 75 for any pen and you are buying jewlery--nothing
more. So the final answer is to ask how much you like jwelery and how
much you will pay for jewlery. Not for a writing instrument that only
serves to write. Frank

"Prometheus7" writes:

I don't know anything about fountain pens. I've been reading a bit
and looking at pictures. Here's my question. Is there a nominal
dollar amount that you can spend above which there is no real
difference in the physical writing experience? I guess I'm asking
where is the breakpoint between when you are paying for the barrel
of the pen and not getting any bang for the buck in the nib?

Everyone will put that breakpoint at a slightly different place, I
personally would say about $100 for new, modern pens. A smidge more
if you're talking Pelikans which tend to be very good writers in my
experience. I won't buy a Montblanc again, also based on experience.

In my not-so-humble opinion, you can get a really good witing modern
pen for under $25. Heck, this summer in France at a department store
(Carrefour), I bought a E5.00 Waterman fountain pen, appearing to be a
clear plastic copy of the Phileas with a plain steel nib, which is a
great writer. I suppose it cost me about US$6.00.

Also in my opinion, you could do better with a vintage pen that's been
restored. I'm partial to Sheaffer Balances and Snorkels. These are
pens from the "Golden Age" and are among the best writing experience
you can have.

For example, a Mont Blanc ballpoint refill costs about $5, the
barrel may cost the other $180. So if I could buy a $10 pen with a
Mont Blanc refill it would be as good a Mont Blanc experience as I
would ever get for more money.

Except IMHO the Monblanc ballpoint writing experience is not that
good. A Pilot rollerball costing less than $2 is a better writer than
a Montblanc ball point refill, with or without the Montblanc barrel.

Why ask the question? I understand you get what you pay for, but
I'm not wanting to buy barrels.

In fountain pens, you may not in fact get what you pay for. The high
dollar pens often perform no better- and may perform worse- than a
moderately priced or even cheap pen.

Are you talking about new pens or vintage?
You can buy a vintage pen that writes well at a cheap price if you don't
mind a hairline-cracked barrel, a missing clip, a severely discolored
barrel or similar imperfections. The nib could still write heavenly.

I think the question is - do esthetics matter? How much do they matter?
Do you want a gold pen, a lovely celluloid, an overlay, a plain black
pen, or a pen with some imperfections? Do you consider a fine looking
pen to be jewelry or a darn nice pen that you'd be proud to own, use,
and show to others?

The price varies depending on what you desire in a pen.

Nancy

We're talking collectables here, "writability" sure, but more pen jewelry
and all the craziness that goes into acquiring that special much wanted
item. As my youngest: you and your crazy interpret friends with the ink stic
sickness.

Yes, it's a bit of an obsession and can be habit forming, but certainly much
more pleasant than a lot of the other addictions out there.

True, it can be distressing to discover that your couple of buck Pelikan Go
or Waterman Phileas writes as well if not better than the 1000 relative and
edson up ender. It's the ijnnards, nib feeder collector. Body gives
substance and aesthetics. But there's more to f/p's than that.

Regarding r/b's b/p's and their ilk. You are basically correct when you
speak about $2 refills. Look at the gliding well made Pilots Uniballs etc.
Bic has a superb new very ergonomic pen out, much as I am loath to admit. At
a buck or two !!

So why do we spend hundreds of dollars for a similar wring experience.
Besides the much overated and overvalued snootiness and snob value of a
certain pen company owned by the Louis Vitton corporate brand, (their
vintages btw before the exit into expensive mass marketing are far better
pens and collectables) you can find excellently made beautiful pens by
Pelikan, Sheaffer Parker, Delta, the Japanese Platinum etc and pride of the
pack imvho the hand made Nakaya. Take a look at their site and mebers
visits to the factory written up at www.pentrace.com
All these and most other good pen companies have admirable and affordable
fp's. Some more beautiful, cheaper expensive than others. It's become
something of a sub culture.

Nice hobby though, ain't it. Been to any of the pen shows. That's where you
really learn and acquire.



"Prometheus7" wrote in message
...
I don't know anything about fountain pens. I've been reading a bit and
looking at pictures. Here's my question. Is there a nominal dollar
amount
that you can spend above which there is no real difference in the physical
writing experience? I guess I'm asking where is the breakpoint between
when
you are paying for the barrel of the pen and not getting any bang for the
buck in the nib? For example, a Mont Blanc ballpoint refill costs about
$5,
the barrel may cost the other $180. So if I could buy a $10 pen with a
Mont
Blanc refill it would be as good a Mont Blanc experience as I would ever
get
for more money.

Why ask the question? I understand you get what you pay for, but I'm not
wanting to buy barrels.

Thoughts?

Thanks.

"Prometheus7" wrote in message .. .
For example, a Mont Blanc ballpoint refill costs about $5,
the barrel may cost the other $180. So if I could buy a $10 pen with a Mont
Blanc refill it would be as good a Mont Blanc experience as I would ever get
for more money.

If you want a pen which uses a ball to apply ink as opposed to a nib
in a fountain pen, I suggest you look at a gel ink refill. I've found
the Parker Gel refills to be most satisfying. Smooth writing and a
wide variety of colors. They fit in any pen which accepts a Parker
ballpoint refill. Those pens can be had for a few bucks for Parker
Jotter at Wal-Mart to over a hundred dollars for a Pelikan 800
ballpoint. IMHO, there are some damn nice ballpoints in the $10 to $
20 range.

Sailor makes a disposable gel roller, the Innovation, which can be had
for under $2 a pop. Comes in five colors and writes like "butta".

As for fountain pens, I generally limit myself to $50. However,
having gotten a Pelikan Go, which I can't say enough good things
about, I've developed an interest in piston fillers as aopposed to the
cartridge / convertor models I have. Seems that good piston fillers
are going to reuire me to raise that limit. In terms of how the nib
works on the paper, it doesn't make a dam bit of difference. But the
piston filler makes it easy to keep the pen filled with ink and the
mechanicism in the Pelikan works great. Previously I tried a cheap
piston filler by Senator and wasn't that impressed.

David

"DovR" wrote in part:

| We're talking collectables here, "writability" sure, but more pen
jewelry
| and all the craziness that goes into acquiring that special much
wanted
| item. As my youngest: you and your crazy interpret friends with the
ink stic
| sickness.

SNIP

| Regarding r/b's b/p's and their ilk. You are basically correct when
you
| speak about $2 refills. Look at the gliding well made Pilots Uniballs
etc.
| Bic has a superb new very ergonomic pen out, much as I am loath to
admit. At
| a buck or two !!

Ok, do tell!

john cline ii, who has been told he has been bitten by the BIC sprite!
(And who finds a certain beauty in functional, well designed, well made
mass market roller balls and ball pens!)

Thank you for your posts. I think you've answered my question. I didn't
want to start some flame war. I realize there is a reason to by an
aesthetically pleasing pen. Jewelry has its place. Ballpoints have there
place. I don't want to take away from any of the aspects. In fact, it was
while I was posting to this group only a few days ago, asking opinions about
ballpoints, that I got interested in learning about f/p's. I went out and
bought a $6 Parker Reflex just to try it. My original question was born:
If $6 buys this, and given the pen is not jewelry by any stretch, then $6
bought the "writing". I wondered how the feel of that pen compared to the
nominal "best" I could buy and how many dollars I was away from that
experience.


"David Heverly" wrote in message
om...
"Prometheus7" wrote in message
.. .
For example, a Mont Blanc ballpoint refill costs about $5,
the barrel may cost the other $180. So if I could buy a $10 pen with a
Mont
Blanc refill it would be as good a Mont Blanc experience as I would ever
get
for more money.

If you want a pen which uses a ball to apply ink as opposed to a nib
in a fountain pen, I suggest you look at a gel ink refill. I've found
the Parker Gel refills to be most satisfying. Smooth writing and a
wide variety of colors. They fit in any pen which accepts a Parker
ballpoint refill. Those pens can be had for a few bucks for Parker
Jotter at Wal-Mart to over a hundred dollars for a Pelikan 800
ballpoint. IMHO, there are some damn nice ballpoints in the $10 to $
20 range.

Sailor makes a disposable gel roller, the Innovation, which can be had
for under $2 a pop. Comes in five colors and writes like "butta".

As for fountain pens, I generally limit myself to $50. However,
having gotten a Pelikan Go, which I can't say enough good things
about, I've developed an interest in piston fillers as aopposed to the
cartridge / convertor models I have. Seems that good piston fillers
are going to reuire me to raise that limit. In terms of how the nib
works on the paper, it doesn't make a dam bit of difference. But the
piston filler makes it easy to keep the pen filled with ink and the
mechanicism in the Pelikan works great. Previously I tried a cheap
piston filler by Senator and wasn't that impressed.

David

Prometheus7 writes:
I understand you get what you pay for, but I'm not wanting to buy
barrels.
------------------------------
Frank says that anything over a certain dollar amount is "jewelry."
Nancy says that the aesthetic experience is important. I'm more
inclined to Nancy's point of view. Personally, I don't find the term
"jewelry" very helpful.

The "jewelry" to which Frank refers includes how the pen looks, how it
fits your hand, how comfortable it is to write with, the heft, if you
want heft, and the lightness, if you want lightness. It includes how
the pen fills, if you're talking about a fountain pen. It includes
the total experience of using the pen. And yes, it includes how
others view the pen. (It's strange to me to be in a business meeting
with a guy dressed in $500 shoes, a $200 custom-made shirt, and a
$2000 suit who uses a 99 cent Bic.)

In the case that you simply like pens and want some variety, then it
includes the variety of all of those features that having a collection
of pens entails, in addition to the convenience of having pens filled
with various colors of ink (or different kinds of refills.)

For many people, the aesthetic experience with pens is important, just
as for many people the aesthetic experience with clothing and cars is
important. The aesthetic experience is often not essential to the
functioning of the item, but it makes the item more enjoyable to own
and use.

For some people, the "pen experience" is largely defined by basic
function and best value for the price. Now in your case, it may be
that you simply have no interest in a "pen experience" outside of
putting ink on paper. As you say, you don't way to "buy barrels."
Well, one option would be to buy the naked refills and write with
those, or maybe wrap some duct tape around them to provide a better
grip. But unless you're on a slim budget, I'd suggest a visit to a
pen store. Check out the displays, try out a couple, see how you like
them. There may be more to the barrel than you think.

jim h

On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 22:21:33 -0400, wrote:

Pay much over $25 to 75 for any pen and you are buying jewlery--nothing
more. So the final answer is to ask how much you like jwelery and how
much you will pay for jewlery. Not for a writing instrument that only
serves to write. Frank

Of course, I disagree - but only a little. In general, i wouldn't
spend more than $50-60 on a pen. And there are some great FPs below
$50.

But, being perhaps too romantic, I think the aesthetic experience of
using a pen of any kind goes well beyond the quality of the nib/point.
That is the *major* concern - but to say there is nothing more from a
pen just because it's over $75 is a bit restricting, IMO. There is
balance, there is design of feed, fill, and section dimension and to
me, a large number of "cheap" pens (vintage or modern) are just that -
cheap. I am left feeling like I might as well have bought a 50 cent
ballpoint then a $20 FP.

Using the term "jewelry" implies that it's qualities lie strictly in
adornment. But I don't believe, based on my own experience, that I
pick up my three "pricey" (over $100 in retail) pens just because they
look good. But because I get a very real, tactile response to the pen
that goes beyond looks and is into the materials and design of the
pen.

Of course, should these pens be sold for over $100? Probably not. And
can I get a similar experience from a cheaper pen. Yes. The same?
Not entirely.

Totally a subjective discussion. And frank and I disagree I think
fundamentally that a pen is just a stick with ink. a tool. to me it
is much more than that. Saying a pen is just a tool to write with is,
in my mind, like saying a guitar is just a tool to make noise.

As I said though - I am perhaps a bit too romantic.