About that "red" 1862 Indian..."

As primised, here's the reply from the seller:

At 1:29 PM -0800 3/8/05, wrote:
....
You asked:
"Hi, The coin appears quite flat with no trace of luster. Has it been
cleaned? Also, I can't see any trace of red. Are both these problems
associated with the photos?"

If you pull out a price guide you will notice that there are no RED's
associated with any Indian heads from 1859 to 1864, well some in 1864.
You cannot see a trace of RED because coins for these years are all
COPPER-Nickel. It is very flat according to the picture but it does have
some excellant luster. No cleaning has taken place as this would reck
the luster.
....
In response, I wrote back:

....
Oh. If that's the case, then why do you have as the title
"http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3963303157Rare
MS-65 Red 1862 Indian Head Penny"? One would think that this suggests
the coin is red.
....

....waiting...

"Scot Kamins" wrote in message
...


...waiting...

He already answered you at the bottom of his listing. ;o)

jim menning

On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 13:55:32 -0800, Scot Kamins
wrote:

As primised, here's the reply from the seller:

At 1:29 PM -0800 3/8/05, wrote:
...
You asked:
"Hi, The coin appears quite flat with no trace of luster. Has it been
cleaned? Also, I can't see any trace of red. Are both these problems
associated with the photos?"

If you pull out a price guide you will notice that there are no RED's
associated with any Indian heads from 1859 to 1864, well some in 1864.
You cannot see a trace of RED because coins for these years are all
COPPER-Nickel. It is very flat according to the picture but it does have
some excellant luster. No cleaning has taken place as this would reck
the luster.
...
In response, I wrote back:

...
Oh. If that's the case, then why do you have as the title
"http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3963303157Rare
MS-65 Red 1862 Indian Head Penny"? One would think that this suggests
the coin is red.
...

...waiting...

Your next question may be:

"Is this the same 1862 Indian Head Cent that you recently purchased as
a VF-20 or better and then dipped in a dip meant for silver coins
giving it that ghastly pinkish color?"

Here's the one he bought:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=3959342479

"Phil DeMayo" wrote in message
news:1110319308.f6140f092b45fa4be4afe79fcdc7e6cf@t eranews...

Your next question may be:

"Is this the same 1862 Indian Head Cent that you recently purchased
as
a VF-20 or better and then dipped in a dip meant for silver coins
giving it that ghastly pinkish color?"

Here's the one he bought:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=3959342479


And your assumption would appear to be correct. Blowing up the images
from both auctions reveals the same defects. Note particularly the
area between the rim and the area above the 2nd and 3rd feathers in
the headdress. There is a nick on the surface that is identical on
both coins. Also note the dirt in the shield on the reverse.

jim menning

In article ,
"jim menning" wrote:

"Scot Kamins" wrote in message
...


...waiting...

He already answered you at the bottom of his listing. ;o)

jim menning



Heh. Yeah, I just saw that.

Still, I think I shall skip bidding on it.

On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 22:09:00 GMT, "jim menning"
wrote:

[snip]

Here's the one he bought:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=3959342479


And your assumption would appear to be correct. Blowing up the images
from both auctions reveals the same defects. Note particularly the
area between the rim and the area above the 2nd and 3rd feathers in
the headdress. There is a nick on the surface that is identical on
both coins. Also note the dirt in the shield on the reverse.

Not the typical behavior one would expect from someone trying to SELL
their collection in order to buy a house ... LOL!

--
Bob Hairgrove

Phil DeMayo wrote:
On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 13:55:32 -0800, Scot Kamins
wrote:

As primised, here's the reply from the seller:

At 1:29 PM -0800 3/8/05, wrote:
...
You asked:
"Hi, The coin appears quite flat with no trace of luster. Has it
been
cleaned? Also, I can't see any trace of red. Are both these problems

associated with the photos?"

If you pull out a price guide you will notice that there are no
RED's
associated with any Indian heads from 1859 to 1864, well some in
1864.
You cannot see a trace of RED because coins for these years are all
COPPER-Nickel. It is very flat according to the picture but it does
have
some excellant luster. No cleaning has taken place as this would
reck
the luster.
...
In response, I wrote back:

...
Oh. If that's the case, then why do you have as the title
"http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3963303157Rare

MS-65 Red 1862 Indian Head Penny"? One would think that this
suggests
the coin is red.
...

...waiting...

Your next question may be:

"Is this the same 1862 Indian Head Cent that you recently purchased
as
a VF-20 or better and then dipped in a dip meant for silver coins
giving it that ghastly pinkish color?"

Here's the one he bought:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=3959342479

Also take a look at his 1909-S VDB. The mintmark looks
ummm...interesting.

The 1922 Plain is the weak reverse variety, but looks genuine IMO.

Here's the dip he used.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=394825148 6

Ken

"Scot Kamins" wrote in message
...
As primised, here's the reply from the seller:

At 1:29 PM -0800 3/8/05, wrote:
...
You asked:
"Hi, The coin appears quite flat with no trace of luster. Has it been
cleaned? Also, I can't see any trace of red. Are both these problems
associated with the photos?"

If you pull out a price guide you will notice that there are no RED's
associated with any Indian heads from 1859 to 1864, well some in 1864.
You cannot see a trace of RED because coins for these years are all
COPPER-Nickel. It is very flat according to the picture but it does have
some excellant luster. No cleaning has taken place as this would reck
the luster.
...
In response, I wrote back:

...
Oh. If that's the case, then why do you have as the title
"http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3963303157Rare
MS-65 Red 1862 Indian Head Penny"? One would think that this suggests
the coin is red.
...

...waiting...

Good job Jim. Definitly looks like the same coin. What is interesting
is the coin he bought looks a lot better then VF20, although it looks
like it may have been recolored. He would have been better off just
leaving it alone.

David

"dmzcompute" wrote in message
oups.com...
Good job Jim. Definitly looks like the same coin. What is
interesting
is the coin he bought looks a lot better then VF20, although it
looks
like it may have been recolored. He would have been better off just
leaving it alone.

David


He sure isn't very good at covering his tracks, is he?

Now that Ken found the auction where he bought the dip, do any of the
more experienced dealers here want to turn him in for fraud? I would
think it would need a "professional" to make the claim, to have any
credence with the authorities. Surely there is enough evidence in his
eBay history to charge and hopefully convict him, but who do you
report to? Surely some of you actually in the industry must know who
to call. Maybe one of you wants to pull his contact ID, see what
state he is in, and forward these threads to that state's attorney
general?

jim menning