If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#11
|
|||
|
|||
Counterfeit Coins Cost Consumers Millions
On Oct 13, 11:02*am, "The Giant Brain" wrote:
"Peter" wrote in message ... They have actual dies from the US mint and are able to use the same die steel and make new dies with computer enhanced laser etching techniques. IIRC the US Mint completely defaces all used dies. Unless those crafty Chinese have broken into the Mint vaults that is! It may do so currently. The currently valuable coins are made with dies (among others) from the 19th century. China bought the presses from the US, directly. The Chinese government used them and when it had no further use for them, sold them to the highest bidder. I am less sure of the provenance of the dies. The ones I saw (at a lecture by Dr. Gregory Dubay) were worn, but as I understand it, genuine. Thus, they had the die steel. The computer enhanced etching would, with the correct steel allow creating very high quality new dies. His estimate of the cost of a new set of dies was around $3,000 per set. So, why would you pay more for a coin than the Chinese ask? |
Ads |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
Counterfeit Coins Cost Consumers Millions
Peter wrote:
On Oct 13, 11:02 am, "The Giant Brain" wrote: "Peter" wrote in message ... They have actual dies from the US mint and are able to use the same die steel and make new dies with computer enhanced laser etching techniques. IIRC the US Mint completely defaces all used dies. Unless those crafty Chinese have broken into the Mint vaults that is! It may do so currently. The currently valuable coins are made with dies (among others) from the 19th century. China bought the presses from the US, directly. The Chinese government used them and when it had no further use for them, sold them to the highest bidder. I am less sure of the provenance of the dies. The ones I saw (at a lecture by Dr. Gregory Dubay) were worn, but as I understand it, genuine. Thus, they had the die steel. The computer enhanced etching would, with the correct steel allow creating very high quality new dies. His estimate of the cost of a new set of dies was around $3,000 per set. So, why would you pay more for a coin than the Chinese ask? Why buy a coin at all when you can have a picture of it on your hard drive, often for free, and enlarged to several diameters? I personally like the feeling that I am physically connecting with the American past when I handle an old coin. Only a genuine coin will convey this totally irrational notion. James the Illogical |
#13
|
|||
|
|||
Counterfeit Coins Cost Consumers Millions
On Oct 13, 11:50*am, "Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com
wrote: Peter wrote: On Oct 13, 11:02 am, "The Giant Brain" wrote: "Peter" wrote in message .... They have actual dies from the US mint and are able to use the same die steel and make new dies with computer enhanced laser etching techniques. IIRC the US Mint completely defaces all used dies. Unless those crafty Chinese have broken into the Mint vaults that is! It may do so currently. *The currently valuable coins are made with dies (among others) from the 19th century. *China bought the presses from the US, directly. *The Chinese government used them and when it had no further use for them, sold them to the highest bidder. *I am less sure of the provenance of the dies. *The ones I saw (at a lecture by Dr. Gregory Dubay) were worn, but as I understand it, genuine. Thus, they had the die steel. *The computer enhanced etching would, with the correct steel allow creating very high quality new dies. *His estimate of the cost of a new set of dies was around $3,000 per set. So, why would you pay more for a coin than the Chinese ask? Why buy a coin at all when you can have a picture of it on your hard drive, often for free, and enlarged to several diameters? *I personally like the feeling that I am physically connecting with the American past when I handle an old coin. *Only a genuine coin will convey this totally irrational notion. James the Illogical- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Well, yes it does seem illogical. When you say that you handle an old coin, how do you know that? Proving it to yourself would seem to be a primary interest that might be supplemented by an interest in proving it to others. Clearly, if you have had the coin for many years and know that you had it before the Chinese discovered this money making scheme, you may be right. If you can document the provenance sufficiently you may be able to pass onward the same feeling and consequently do so at a profit (or perhaps at least limit your expense). Otherwise, a collateral point made by Dr. Dubay was that, quite clearly, making fakes is a serious business for these folks. It is how they feed themselves and is by no means illegal in China. They very well understand that they can charge much more for excellent fakes than they can for ones that look like Cracker Jacks prizes. They are willing to work very hard with excellent materials to earn higher prices. |
#14
|
|||
|
|||
Counterfeit Coins Cost Consumers Millions
Peter wrote:
On Oct 13, 11:50 am, "Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote: Peter wrote: On Oct 13, 11:02 am, "The Giant Brain" wrote: "Peter" wrote in message ... They have actual dies from the US mint and are able to use the same die steel and make new dies with computer enhanced laser etching techniques. IIRC the US Mint completely defaces all used dies. Unless those crafty Chinese have broken into the Mint vaults that is! It may do so currently. The currently valuable coins are made with dies (among others) from the 19th century. China bought the presses from the US, directly. The Chinese government used them and when it had no further use for them, sold them to the highest bidder. I am less sure of the provenance of the dies. The ones I saw (at a lecture by Dr. Gregory Dubay) were worn, but as I understand it, genuine. Thus, they had the die steel. The computer enhanced etching would, with the correct steel allow creating very high quality new dies. His estimate of the cost of a new set of dies was around $3,000 per set. So, why would you pay more for a coin than the Chinese ask? Why buy a coin at all when you can have a picture of it on your hard drive, often for free, and enlarged to several diameters? I personally like the feeling that I am physically connecting with the American past when I handle an old coin. Only a genuine coin will convey this totally irrational notion. James the Illogical- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Well, yes it does seem illogical. When you say that you handle an old coin, how do you know that? Proving it to yourself would seem to be a primary interest that might be supplemented by an interest in proving it to others. Well, I suppose that if one were to take your line of argument to its limit, he would have to admit that nothing at all can actually be *known*. Clearly, if you have had the coin for many years and know that you had it before the Chinese discovered this money making scheme, you may be right. If you can document the provenance sufficiently you may be able to pass onward the same feeling and consequently do so at a profit (or perhaps at least limit your expense). I care not a whit about what happens to my coins once I cross the Chilly River. And if my ownership of them fails to constitute adequate documentation of provenance, so be it, I intend to do nothing about it. I'm going to enjoy them as much as I can while I'm here and while they are here. After all, I bought them for my own enjoyment, and my own enjoyment only. I presume the attending dealers made money in each of my transactions with them, but it matters not to me whether I or anyone else ever does. Otherwise, a collateral point made by Dr. Dubay was that, quite clearly, making fakes is a serious business for these folks. It is how they feed themselves and is by no means illegal in China. They very well understand that they can charge much more for excellent fakes than they can for ones that look like Cracker Jacks prizes. They are willing to work very hard with excellent materials to earn higher prices. Capitalism in its purest form, that, say I. James the Rugged Individualist 'who pulls himself up by his own bootstraps on a daily basis' |
#15
|
|||
|
|||
Counterfeit Coins Cost Consumers Millions
"Peter" wrote in message
... Consequently, if you are interested, you will need to actually supply some of your own proof. Let's see now... I have to provide myself proof of your assertions. Sure, let me get right on that and I'll get back to you. |
#16
|
|||
|
|||
Counterfeit Coins Cost Consumers Millions
On Oct 12, 8:16*pm, "Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote:
Arizona Coin Collector wrote: FROM: http://moneywatch.bnet.com/saving-mo...ils/counterfei... Counterfeit Coins Cost Consumers Millions By Kathy Kristof Oct 12, 2009 Beware buying rare coins online, at flea markets and swap meets. Consumers are spending millions buying what they believe are rare coins, but they're getting near-worthless Chinese-made counterfeits. (fake 1916-D dime, front) http://i.bnet.com/blogs/fake-1916-d-...col1;attachmen.... (fake 1916-D dime, back) http://i.bnet.com/blogs/fake-1916-d-...ol1;attachment.... More than a million counterfeit coins manufactured in China have been fraudulently sold in the U.S., according to Coin World, a respected industry publication. Some of these were peddled as "replicas" but they were manufactured without the requisite "copy" stamp. Roughly 99% of the replicas produced in China don't contain the "copy" marking that' required by the U.S. Hobby Protection Act, which is aimed at warning consumers that they're getting a mass-produced replica rather than the original, according to Coin World. As a result, it's easy to resell these coins at flea markets, swap meets and through Internet auctions, without giving the buyer any inkling that the coins could be fakes. "Millions of dollars already have been spent on these fakes and potentially millions more may be unwittingly lost by consumers who mistakenly think they are getting a genuine rare coin," said Paul Montgomery, president of the Professional Numismatists Guild. How big of a difference does it make? A genuine 1916-D dime sells for about $700, but a replica can be had for $21. "Generally the replicas being sold have zero commercial value," Scott Schechter, vice president for the Numismatic Guaranty Corp. told me in an interview. "Most people are looking at a total loss." Consumers may be particularly vulnerable at a time when precious metal prices are hitting all-time highs, largely because consumers have become nervous about traditional investments such as stock and bonds, as well as the rapidly declining value of the U.S. dollar. Roughly $5 billion in rare coins are sold each year, even in the midst of today's recession. In a joint release issued by the American Numismatic Association, the Industry Council for Tangible Assets, the Professional Numismatists Guild, the Numismatic Guaranty Corp., and the Professional Coin Grading Service, the groups urged consumers to research before they buy and restrict their purchases to reputable companies that they have reason to trust. If you are tempted to buy at a flea market or online, you may want to check out the coin with authentication companies such as the Numismatic Guaranty Corp. or the Professional Coin Grading Service. Unfortunately, unless the coin is already in an acceptable slab, the burden of authentication is on the buyer after he has paid for and taken possession of the coin. *By then the seller is long gone. James the Wary This is one reason I only buy from people on eBay who have a return policy of at least 30 days so I have time check the authenticity of the coin. I go to coin dealers and friends who also collect coins have them check the coin. Thankfully a couple of the dealers have been in the business for about 30 years and they are members of the ANA and PNG and I put a lot of trust in them. |
#17
|
|||
|
|||
Counterfeit Coins Cost Consumers Millions
On Oct 13, 2:26 pm, Peter wrote:
... The link below is from someone else that attended a lecture given about the same time and is illustrated. http://forums.collectors.com/message...hreadid=741248 ... Dr. Dubay has actually worked with the creators of the coins and knows them personally. Thanks for the link. The post on Collectors Universe is from Dennis Tucker, a publisher with Whitman. If he was impressed with the presentation, then it was serious. I note also in that post that Dr. Dubay's categorization of Chinese fakes is implemented in the new Professional Edition of The Red Book. The pictures are stunning. Proof, of course requires more. As we know, pictures alone cannot convey enough information. At my talk on fakes in at the ANA in Pittsburgh, I showed slides of counterfeit Seated Dollars. Dealers found them convincing. However, handling the coins gave them away. That said, I also showed fake Morgan Dollars for which hands-on evidence was not helpful. This problem is not new to 2009. It has been growing over the years. The Chinese fakes of mainstream US Type coins is now a concern. Everyone is wringing their hands. Back in 2000 no one was worried about the flood of Bulgarian fakes of ancients. Put into a wider context, fake Bosch brake pads, counterfeit Oster blenders, hokey Gucci handbags, pirated pop music, and other phony consumer goods are serious problems. Life goes on if someone wears an Olympic t-shirt that was not licensed by the Olympic Committee. However, in the case of industrial goods and household appliances, life might not go on. We buy the name brand because we expect the quality that goes with it. The other side of the coin is that these criminal enterprises join the cash streams of international terrorism. People who smuggle cigarettes also smuggle weapons. Mike M. Michael E. Marotta |
#18
|
|||
|
|||
Counterfeit Coins Cost Consumers Millions
Mike Marotta wrote:
People who smuggle cigarettes also smuggle weapons. Really? I didn't know that. Tell us more! What about people who smuggle alcohol? Do they smuggle weapons too? If you smoke cigarettes, do you also smoke marijuana? If you smoke marijuana, do you shoot heroin? If you smuggle cigarettes and alcohol, are you a terrorist? If you smuggle cigarettes and alcohol and smoke marijuana and shoot heroin, are you building the bomb? If the federal government tightens regulations governing the securities industry, are all of our freedoms in danger? If restaurant chains are forced to inform patrons about the saturated fat and sodium content of dishes, is Big Brother going to tell you what you're allowed to eat and what you're not? Slippery slope. Big logical fallacy. Huge. A lot of people fall for it. And it's a favorite technique of demagogues, whether on the right or the left. Back to coins, somebody here once said that if you study and publish information about counterfeits of collectable coins, you're supporting terrorists. That was you, wasn't it? The connection couldn't be clearer. As one way they finance themselves, terrorists counterfeit current currency. Therefore anybody possessing counterfeits, even contemporary counterfeits of Bust halves or ancient Owls, supports terrorists. -- Consumer: http://rg.ancients.info/guide Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos |
#19
|
|||
|
|||
Counterfeit Coins Cost Consumers Millions
On Oct 12, 7:20*pm, "Arizona Coin Collector"
wrote: FROM:http://moneywatch.bnet.com/saving-mo...ils/counterfei... Counterfeit Coins Cost Consumers Millions By Kathy Kristof Oct 12, 2009 Beware buying rare coins online, at flea markets and swap meets. Consumers are spending millions buying what they believe are rare coins, but they're getting near-worthless Chinese-made counterfeits. (fake 1916-D dime, front)http://i.bnet.com/blogs/fake-1916-d-...col1;attachmen... (fake 1916-D dime, back)http://i.bnet.com/blogs/fake-1916-d-...ol1;attachment... More than a million counterfeit coins manufactured in China have been fraudulently sold in the U.S., according to Coin World, a respected industry publication. Some of these were peddled as "replicas" but they were manufactured without the requisite "copy" stamp. Roughly 99% of the replicas produced in China don't contain the "copy" marking that' required by the U.S. Hobby Protection Act, Does the coin have a "Made in China" stamp? If not, how can one tell whether the coin/replica is produced in China? Sounds like the companies are trying to scare the consumers into buying slabbed coins. which is aimed at warning consumers that they're getting a mass-produced replica rather than the original, according to Coin World. As a result, it's easy to resell these coins at flea markets, swap meets and through Internet auctions, without giving the buyer any inkling that the coins could be fakes. "Millions of dollars already have been spent on these fakes and potentially millions more may be unwittingly lost by consumers who mistakenly think they are getting a genuine rare coin," said Paul Montgomery, president of the Professional Numismatists Guild. How big of a difference does it make? A genuine 1916-D dime sells for about $700, but a replica can be had for $21. "Generally the replicas being sold have zero commercial value," Scott Schechter, vice president for the Numismatic Guaranty Corp. told me in an interview. "Most people are looking at a total loss." Consumers may be particularly vulnerable at a time when precious metal prices are hitting all-time highs, largely because consumers have become nervous about traditional investments such as stock and bonds, as well as the rapidly declining value of the U.S. dollar. Roughly $5 billion in rare coins are sold each year, even in the midst of today's recession. In a joint release issued by the American Numismatic Association, the Industry Council for Tangible Assets, the Professional Numismatists Guild, the Numismatic Guaranty Corp., and the Professional Coin Grading Service, the groups urged consumers to research before they buy and restrict their purchases to reputable companies that they have reason to trust. If you are tempted to buy at a flea market or online, you may want to check out the coin with authentication companies such as the Numismatic Guaranty Corp. or the Professional Coin Grading Service. The Professional Numismatists Guild will also provide a copy of its booklet, "What You Should Know Before You Buy Rare Coins," for $1 if you send a request to them at 3950 Concordia Lane, Fallbrook, CA 92028. .. |
#20
|
|||
|
|||
Counterfeit Coins Cost Consumers Millions
On Oct 12, 8:16*pm, "Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote:
Arizona Coin Collector wrote: FROM: http://moneywatch.bnet.com/saving-mo...ils/counterfei... Counterfeit Coins Cost Consumers Millions By Kathy Kristof Oct 12, 2009 Beware buying rare coins online, at flea markets and swap meets. Consumers are spending millions buying what they believe are rare coins, but they're getting near-worthless Chinese-made counterfeits. (fake 1916-D dime, front) http://i.bnet.com/blogs/fake-1916-d-...col1;attachmen.... (fake 1916-D dime, back) http://i.bnet.com/blogs/fake-1916-d-...ol1;attachment.... More than a million counterfeit coins manufactured in China have been fraudulently sold in the U.S., according to Coin World, a respected industry publication. Some of these were peddled as "replicas" but they were manufactured without the requisite "copy" stamp. Roughly 99% of the replicas produced in China don't contain the "copy" marking that' required by the U.S. Hobby Protection Act, which is aimed at warning consumers that they're getting a mass-produced replica rather than the original, according to Coin World. As a result, it's easy to resell these coins at flea markets, swap meets and through Internet auctions, without giving the buyer any inkling that the coins could be fakes. "Millions of dollars already have been spent on these fakes and potentially millions more may be unwittingly lost by consumers who mistakenly think they are getting a genuine rare coin," said Paul Montgomery, president of the Professional Numismatists Guild. How big of a difference does it make? A genuine 1916-D dime sells for about $700, but a replica can be had for $21. "Generally the replicas being sold have zero commercial value," Scott Schechter, vice president for the Numismatic Guaranty Corp. told me in an interview. "Most people are looking at a total loss." Consumers may be particularly vulnerable at a time when precious metal prices are hitting all-time highs, largely because consumers have become nervous about traditional investments such as stock and bonds, as well as the rapidly declining value of the U.S. dollar. Roughly $5 billion in rare coins are sold each year, even in the midst of today's recession. In a joint release issued by the American Numismatic Association, the Industry Council for Tangible Assets, the Professional Numismatists Guild, the Numismatic Guaranty Corp., and the Professional Coin Grading Service, the groups urged consumers to research before they buy and restrict their purchases to reputable companies that they have reason to trust. If you are tempted to buy at a flea market or online, you may want to check out the coin with authentication companies such as the Numismatic Guaranty Corp. or the Professional Coin Grading Service. Unfortunately, unless the coin is already in an acceptable slab, the burden of authentication is on the buyer after he has paid for and taken possession of the coin. *By then the seller is long gone. I always think it is easier to conterfeit the plastic packaging. If counterfeiting is a serious concern, there will be no acceptable slab. James the Wary- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
USA TODAY ---- U.S. Mint tries to get consumers to use dollar coins | Arizona Coin Collector | Coins | 8 | November 27th 08 10:03 AM |
Mint Spends Millions to Promote Use of Dollar Coins | Michael Ravnitzky | Coins | 0 | November 15th 08 07:14 PM |
Counterfeit Coins? | Arizona Coin Collector | Coins | 3 | November 9th 08 04:12 AM |
Counterfeit Coins | Ockham's Razor | Coins | 1 | June 22nd 07 06:45 PM |
Cost of making dollar coins | Dave Allured | Coins | 12 | September 12th 03 01:38 AM |