Jukebox Blews

----also posted to yahoo seeburg group
Hi all,
It looks like my restored Seeburg 147 Trashcan just became the latest
victim of the old Seeburg power transformer barbeque! Amp & WSR1
Receiver were rebuilt several years ago, tubes and caps still test
good so I’m not sure what put the power transformer over the edge. I’m
wondering if any of you have a used one (that’s not shorted) that you
want to sell or if anyone has come up with a way to provide the
necessary secondary voltages using multiple transformers on an
external chassis? Maybe I’m just dreaming but it seems like there must
be a work around substitute to get the needed voltages…….I don’t want
to re-invent the wheel if someone has already done it. Any thoughts or
help would be much appreciated.
---Jim

Did it burn and smoke or does it just blow fuses?
The transformer on my VL200 was blowing fuses and it turned out to be a
sharp solder joint that vibrated
through the paper between layers of wire and I was able to fix it.
You have nothing to lose by trying to take it apart a little to see what you
can see.

Glen

"jimw" wrote in message
...
----also posted to yahoo seeburg group
Hi all,
It looks like my restored Seeburg 147 Trashcan just became the latest
victim of the old Seeburg power transformer barbeque! Amp & WSR1
Receiver were rebuilt several years ago, tubes and caps still test
good so I’m not sure what put the power transformer over the edge. I’m
wondering if any of you have a used one (that’s not shorted) that you
want to sell or if anyone has come up with a way to provide the
necessary secondary voltages using multiple transformers on an
external chassis? Maybe I’m just dreaming but it seems like there must
be a work around substitute to get the needed voltages…….I don’t want
to re-invent the wheel if someone has already done it. Any thoughts or
help would be much appreciated.
---Jim

On Nov 16, 11:07*pm, "Arthur Dent" wrote:
Did it burn and smoke or does it just blow fuses?
The transformer on my VL200 was blowing fuses and it turned out to be a
sharp solder joint that vibrated
through the paper between layers of wire and I was able to fix it.
You have nothing to lose by trying to take it apart a little to see what you
can see.

Glen

"jimw" wrote in message

...
----also posted to yahoo seeburg group
Hi all,
It looks like my restored Seeburg 147 Trashcan just became the latest
victim of the old Seeburg power transformer barbeque! Amp & WSR1
Receiver were rebuilt several years ago, tubes and caps still test
good so I’m not sure what put the power transformer over the edge. I’m
wondering if any of you have a used one (that’s not shorted) that you
want to sell or if anyone has come up with a way to provide the
necessary secondary voltages using multiple transformers on an
external chassis? Maybe I’m just dreaming but it seems like there must
be a work around substitute to get the needed voltages…….I don’t want
to re-invent the wheel if someone has already done it. Any thoughts or
help would be much appreciated.
---Jim

No smoke yet, The fuse blew after replacing it so I took the receiver
out and put it on my bench. Removed tubes and plugged it in. After
it's on about ten seconds sizzling and popping sounds start. I've
plugged it in numerous times to quickly check secondary voltages
during the 10 to 15 seconds.... all ok except zero plate volts on the
output to the 5y3. I haven't taken the transformer apart yet.Sounds
like it might be worth a try.......

Jim, the H-V windings are the most likely to fail in any transformer.
When you consider the high turns ratio and small gauge wire subjected
to high potential, all it takes is a little moisture or a spot where
the doping has been weakened by repeated flexing due to heating/
cooling.

I don't have any experience with machines this old, but the voltages
are likely common and yes, you can sub other trans for what is in
there.

I bought several TSR units w/bad transformers. At that point in the
late 80's the only option was to use a sub. I chose to use LPC
transformers because I had access to a number of the TCC's and most
were already somewhat parted out. The LPC trans had most of the needed
voltages except for amp filaments and decorative lighting. Those I
supplied with additional trans mounted under the TSR-3 and TSU chassis
pans.

First step is to determine voltages and current needed.


Rob/NYC

On Nov 18, 1:04*am, jimw wrote:
On Nov 16, 11:07*pm, "Arthur Dent" wrote:



Did it burn and smoke or does it just blow fuses?
The transformer on my VL200 was blowing fuses and it turned out to be a
sharp solder joint that vibrated
through the paper between layers of wire and I was able to fix it.
You have nothing to lose by trying to take it apart a little to see what you
can see.

Glen

"jimw" wrote in message

...
----also posted to yahoo seeburg group
Hi all,
It looks like my restored Seeburg 147 Trashcan just became the latest
victim of the old Seeburg power transformer barbeque! Amp & WSR1
Receiver were rebuilt several years ago, tubes and caps still test
good so I’m not sure what put the power transformer over the edge. I’m
wondering if any of you have a used one (that’s not shorted) that you
want to sell or if anyone has come up with a way to provide the
necessary secondary voltages using multiple transformers on an
external chassis? Maybe I’m just dreaming but it seems like there must
be a work around substitute to get the needed voltages…….I don’t want
to re-invent the wheel if someone has already done it. Any thoughts or
help would be much appreciated.
---Jim

No smoke yet, The fuse blew after replacing it so I took the receiver
out and put it on my bench. Removed tubes and plugged it in. After
it's on about ten seconds sizzling and popping sounds start. I've
plugged it in numerous times to quickly check secondary voltages
during the 10 to 15 seconds.... all ok except zero plate volts on the
output to the 5y3. I haven't taken the transformer apart yet.Sounds
like it might be worth a try.......


I think it is age. Old winding wire like this was not always the best
with the coatings that they had back in those days. Also anything high
voltage would tend to use very thin wire, which is mechanically
fragile. Even if you buy another unit of similar age pulled from a
junked machine, it will possibly go too over time - as these are now
all very old.

You might be lucky and just find a problem like the other poster, but
be careful with any thin, fragile internal wire if you poke around in
there


I remember with Rola, they had a lot of trouble in those days with
output transformers used in valve radios with the insulation breaking
down to ground (pinholes could form). Many attempts were made to fix
the problem including various varnish coating techniques, followed by
running the coated winding wire through a bath of mercury and megger
testing it to look for any weak spots in the insulation, as well as
potting the transformer windings with wax etc to keep out moisture
etc. All failed.

In the end, they simply tied the core to the same high voltage to
minimise the voltage potential involved and solve the problem of
insulation breakdown. This "live" transformer assembly was then put in
an aluminium outer case with an insulating potting compound (bitumen?)
used between the 2 for safety. These transformers were sold under the
"Isocore" brand name.



I have seen several times this failure with mains transformers used in
AMI G-80 amplifiers. In this case you get intermittent internal
flashovers to the transformer frame (bolted to the earthed chassis),
this puts a lot of stress on the 5U4G rectifier, and I have seen these
glow brightly (along with loss of sound for about 10 seconds) during
these flashovers.

On Nov 18, 6:18*am, kreed wrote:
On Nov 18, 1:04*am, jimw wrote:









On Nov 16, 11:07*pm, "Arthur Dent" wrote:

Did it burn and smoke or does it just blow fuses?
The transformer on my VL200 was blowing fuses and it turned out to be a
sharp solder joint that vibrated
through the paper between layers of wire and I was able to fix it.
You have nothing to lose by trying to take it apart a little to see what you
can see.

Glen

"jimw" wrote in message

....
----also posted to yahoo seeburg group
Hi all,
It looks like my restored Seeburg 147 Trashcan just became the latest
victim of the old Seeburg power transformer barbeque! Amp & WSR1
Receiver were rebuilt several years ago, tubes and caps still test
good so I’m not sure what put the power transformer over the edge. I’m
wondering if any of you have a used one (that’s not shorted) that you
want to sell or if anyone has come up with a way to provide the
necessary secondary voltages using multiple transformers on an
external chassis? Maybe I’m just dreaming but it seems like there must
be a work around substitute to get the needed voltages…….I don’t want
to re-invent the wheel if someone has already done it. Any thoughts or
help would be much appreciated.
---Jim

No smoke yet, The fuse blew after replacing it so I took the receiver
out and put it on my bench. Removed tubes and plugged it in. After
it's on about ten seconds sizzling and popping sounds start. I've
plugged it in numerous times to quickly check secondary voltages
during the 10 to 15 seconds.... all ok except zero plate volts on the
output to the 5y3. I haven't taken the transformer apart yet.Sounds
like it might be worth a try.......

I think it is age. *Old winding wire like this was not always the best
with the coatings that they had back in those days. Also anything high
voltage would tend to use very thin wire, which is mechanically
fragile. *Even if you buy another unit of similar age pulled from a
junked machine, it will possibly go too over time - as these are now
all very old.

You might be lucky and just find a problem like the other poster, but
be careful with any thin, fragile internal wire if you poke around in
there

I remember with Rola, they had a lot of trouble in those days with
output transformers used in valve radios with the insulation breaking
down to ground (pinholes could form). *Many attempts were made to fix
the problem including various varnish coating techniques, followed by
running the coated winding wire through a bath of mercury and megger
testing it to look for any weak spots in the insulation, as well as
potting the transformer windings with wax etc to keep out moisture
etc. *All failed.

In the end, they simply tied the core to the same high voltage to
minimise the voltage potential involved and solve the problem of
insulation breakdown. This "live" transformer assembly was then put in
an aluminium outer case with an insulating potting compound (bitumen?)
used between the 2 for safety. These transformers were sold under the
"Isocore" brand name.

I have seen several times this failure with mains transformers used in
AMI G-80 amplifiers. * In this case you get intermittent internal
flashovers to the transformer frame (bolted to the earthed chassis),
this puts a lot of stress on the 5U4G rectifier, and I have seen these
glow brightly (along with loss of sound for about 10 seconds) during
these flashovers.

Thanks kreed and Rob.....Age it must be, kinda like us humans. Let's
see, that Seeburg transformer was put in service in
1947, I was born three years after that in 1950.....I have a few
things failing too....knees, back, etc.60+ years does take it's toll!
I appreciated the "history" kreed talks about, very interesting about
problems and fixes they tried back in the day... Replacing my
transformer with another used one likely could just lead to failure
again but would keep the selection receiver "original". On the other
hand this may be the time to bite the bullet and figure out what to
use for a multiple new transformer set up. A transformer for the 5y3
should not be hard to find, coming up with something for the other
voltages could be a challenge though. I haven't looked yet....

jimw wrote:
On Nov 18, 6:18 am, kreed wrote:
On Nov 18, 1:04 am, jimw wrote:









On Nov 16, 11:07 pm, "Arthur Dent" wrote:
Did it burn and smoke or does it just blow fuses?
The transformer on my VL200 was blowing fuses and it turned out to be a
sharp solder joint that vibrated
through the paper between layers of wire and I was able to fix it.
You have nothing to lose by trying to take it apart a little to see what you
can see.
Glen
"jimw" wrote in message
....
----also posted to yahoo seeburg group
Hi all,
It looks like my restored Seeburg 147 Trashcan just became the latest
victim of the old Seeburg power transformer barbeque! Amp & WSR1
Receiver were rebuilt several years ago, tubes and caps still test
good so I’m not sure what put the power transformer over the edge. I’m
wondering if any of you have a used one (that’s not shorted) that you
want to sell or if anyone has come up with a way to provide the
necessary secondary voltages using multiple transformers on an
external chassis? Maybe I’m just dreaming but it seems like there must
be a work around substitute to get the needed voltages…….I don’t want
to re-invent the wheel if someone has already done it. Any thoughts or
help would be much appreciated.
---Jim
No smoke yet, The fuse blew after replacing it so I took the receiver
out and put it on my bench. Removed tubes and plugged it in. After
it's on about ten seconds sizzling and popping sounds start. I've
plugged it in numerous times to quickly check secondary voltages
during the 10 to 15 seconds.... all ok except zero plate volts on the
output to the 5y3. I haven't taken the transformer apart yet.Sounds
like it might be worth a try.......
I think it is age. Old winding wire like this was not always the best
with the coatings that they had back in those days. Also anything high
voltage would tend to use very thin wire, which is mechanically
fragile. Even if you buy another unit of similar age pulled from a
junked machine, it will possibly go too over time - as these are now
all very old.

You might be lucky and just find a problem like the other poster, but
be careful with any thin, fragile internal wire if you poke around in
there

I remember with Rola, they had a lot of trouble in those days with
output transformers used in valve radios with the insulation breaking
down to ground (pinholes could form). Many attempts were made to fix
the problem including various varnish coating techniques, followed by
running the coated winding wire through a bath of mercury and megger
testing it to look for any weak spots in the insulation, as well as
potting the transformer windings with wax etc to keep out moisture
etc. All failed.

In the end, they simply tied the core to the same high voltage to
minimise the voltage potential involved and solve the problem of
insulation breakdown. This "live" transformer assembly was then put in
an aluminium outer case with an insulating potting compound (bitumen?)
used between the 2 for safety. These transformers were sold under the
"Isocore" brand name.

I have seen several times this failure with mains transformers used in
AMI G-80 amplifiers. In this case you get intermittent internal
flashovers to the transformer frame (bolted to the earthed chassis),
this puts a lot of stress on the 5U4G rectifier, and I have seen these
glow brightly (along with loss of sound for about 10 seconds) during
these flashovers.

Thanks kreed and Rob.....Age it must be, kinda like us humans. Let's
see, that Seeburg transformer was put in service in
1947, I was born three years after that in 1950.....I have a few
things failing too....knees, back, etc.60+ years does take it's toll!
I appreciated the "history" kreed talks about, very interesting about
problems and fixes they tried back in the day... Replacing my
transformer with another used one likely could just lead to failure
again but would keep the selection receiver "original". On the other
hand this may be the time to bite the bullet and figure out what to
use for a multiple new transformer set up. A transformer for the 5y3
should not be hard to find, coming up with something for the other
voltages could be a challenge though. I haven't looked yet....

Before you give up on this transformer may I suggest that you cut ALL
the secondary lines (leave just enough to see where the leads went) and
see if you still get the sizzle. It is possible that something on one of
the secondaries is shorted to ground or the other side of the winding.

Then use the 100W (75W is OK) incandescent (only) light bulb in series
on one side of the 115AC input to the transformer to reduce the risk of
smoking up your house - light should be dim if the transformer is OK.

John :-#)#

--
(Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

On Nov 18, 1:31*pm, John Robertson wrote:
jimw wrote:
On Nov 18, 6:18 am, kreed wrote:
On Nov 18, 1:04 am, jimw wrote:

On Nov 16, 11:07 pm, "Arthur Dent" wrote:
Did it burn and smoke or does it just blow fuses?
The transformer on my VL200 was blowing fuses and it turned out to be a
sharp solder joint that vibrated
through the paper between layers of wire and I was able to fix it.
You have nothing to lose by trying to take it apart a little to see what you
can see.
Glen
"jimw" wrote in message
.....
----also posted to yahoo seeburg group
Hi all,
It looks like my restored Seeburg 147 Trashcan just became the latest
victim of the old Seeburg power transformer barbeque! Amp & WSR1
Receiver were rebuilt several years ago, tubes and caps still test
good so I’m not sure what put the power transformer over the edge. I’m
wondering if any of you have a used one (that’s not shorted) that you
want to sell or if anyone has come up with a way to provide the
necessary secondary voltages using multiple transformers on an
external chassis? Maybe I’m just dreaming but it seems like there must
be a work around substitute to get the needed voltages…….I don’t want
to re-invent the wheel if someone has already done it. Any thoughts or
help would be much appreciated.
---Jim
No smoke yet, The fuse blew after replacing it so I took the receiver
out and put it on my bench. Removed tubes and plugged it in. After
it's on about ten seconds sizzling and popping sounds start. I've
plugged it in numerous times to quickly check secondary voltages
during the 10 to 15 seconds.... all ok except zero plate volts on the
output to the 5y3. I haven't taken the transformer apart yet.Sounds
like it might be worth a try.......
I think it is age. *Old winding wire like this was not always the best
with the coatings that they had back in those days. Also anything high
voltage would tend to use very thin wire, which is mechanically
fragile. *Even if you buy another unit of similar age pulled from a
junked machine, it will possibly go too over time - as these are now
all very old.

You might be lucky and just find a problem like the other poster, but
be careful with any thin, fragile internal wire if you poke around in
there

I remember with Rola, they had a lot of trouble in those days with
output transformers used in valve radios with the insulation breaking
down to ground (pinholes could form). *Many attempts were made to fix
the problem including various varnish coating techniques, followed by
running the coated winding wire through a bath of mercury and megger
testing it to look for any weak spots in the insulation, as well as
potting the transformer windings with wax etc to keep out moisture
etc. *All failed.

In the end, they simply tied the core to the same high voltage to
minimise the voltage potential involved and solve the problem of
insulation breakdown. This "live" transformer assembly was then put in
an aluminium outer case with an insulating potting compound (bitumen?)
used between the 2 for safety. These transformers were sold under the
"Isocore" brand name.

I have seen several times this failure with mains transformers used in
AMI G-80 amplifiers. * In this case you get intermittent internal
flashovers to the transformer frame (bolted to the earthed chassis),
this puts a lot of stress on the 5U4G rectifier, and I have seen these
glow brightly (along with loss of sound for about 10 seconds) during
these flashovers.

Thanks kreed and Rob.....Age it must be, kinda like us humans. Let's
see, that Seeburg transformer was put in service in
1947, I was born three years after that in 1950.....I have a few
things failing too....knees, back, etc.60+ years does take it's toll!
I appreciated the "history" kreed talks about, very interesting about
problems and fixes they tried back in the day... Replacing my
transformer with another used one likely could just lead to failure
again but would keep the selection receiver "original". On the other
hand this may be the time to bite the bullet and figure out what to
use for a multiple new *transformer set up. A transformer for the 5y3
should not be hard to find, coming up with something for the other
voltages could be a challenge though. I haven't looked yet....

Before you give up on this transformer may I suggest that you cut ALL
the secondary lines (leave just enough to see where the leads went) and
see if you still get the sizzle. It is possible that something on one of
the secondaries is shorted to ground or the other side of the winding.

Then use the 100W (75W is OK) incandescent (only) light bulb in series
on one side of the 115AC input to the transformer to reduce the risk of
smoking up your house - light should be dim if the transformer is OK.

John :-#)#

--
* * (Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup)
* John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
* Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
* * * * * * * * * * *www.flippers.com
* * * *"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

Thanks for the suggestion John....I've done the bulb in series test
(used a 60w), lit up bright but only disconnected the 5y3 plate wires
and 20Mfd caps. tubes are out of sockets. Suppose it could be a bad
relay coil or something else on the secondary... I'll dig deeper and
try cutting them all and see what the bulb does......
---Jim

On Nov 19, 4:31*am, John Robertson wrote:
jimw wrote:
On Nov 18, 6:18 am, kreed wrote:
On Nov 18, 1:04 am, jimw wrote:

On Nov 16, 11:07 pm, "Arthur Dent" wrote:
Did it burn and smoke or does it just blow fuses?
The transformer on my VL200 was blowing fuses and it turned out to be a
sharp solder joint that vibrated
through the paper between layers of wire and I was able to fix it.
You have nothing to lose by trying to take it apart a little to see what you
can see.
Glen
"jimw" wrote in message
.....
----also posted to yahoo seeburg group
Hi all,
It looks like my restored Seeburg 147 Trashcan just became the latest
victim of the old Seeburg power transformer barbeque! Amp & WSR1
Receiver were rebuilt several years ago, tubes and caps still test
good so I’m not sure what put the power transformer over the edge. I’m
wondering if any of you have a used one (that’s not shorted) that you
want to sell or if anyone has come up with a way to provide the
necessary secondary voltages using multiple transformers on an
external chassis? Maybe I’m just dreaming but it seems like there must
be a work around substitute to get the needed voltages…….I don’t want
to re-invent the wheel if someone has already done it. Any thoughts or
help would be much appreciated.
---Jim
No smoke yet, The fuse blew after replacing it so I took the receiver
out and put it on my bench. Removed tubes and plugged it in. After
it's on about ten seconds sizzling and popping sounds start. I've
plugged it in numerous times to quickly check secondary voltages
during the 10 to 15 seconds.... all ok except zero plate volts on the
output to the 5y3. I haven't taken the transformer apart yet.Sounds
like it might be worth a try.......
I think it is age. *Old winding wire like this was not always the best
with the coatings that they had back in those days. Also anything high
voltage would tend to use very thin wire, which is mechanically
fragile. *Even if you buy another unit of similar age pulled from a
junked machine, it will possibly go too over time - as these are now
all very old.

You might be lucky and just find a problem like the other poster, but
be careful with any thin, fragile internal wire if you poke around in
there

I remember with Rola, they had a lot of trouble in those days with
output transformers used in valve radios with the insulation breaking
down to ground (pinholes could form). *Many attempts were made to fix
the problem including various varnish coating techniques, followed by
running the coated winding wire through a bath of mercury and megger
testing it to look for any weak spots in the insulation, as well as
potting the transformer windings with wax etc to keep out moisture
etc. *All failed.

In the end, they simply tied the core to the same high voltage to
minimise the voltage potential involved and solve the problem of
insulation breakdown. This "live" transformer assembly was then put in
an aluminium outer case with an insulating potting compound (bitumen?)
used between the 2 for safety. These transformers were sold under the
"Isocore" brand name.

I have seen several times this failure with mains transformers used in
AMI G-80 amplifiers. * In this case you get intermittent internal
flashovers to the transformer frame (bolted to the earthed chassis),
this puts a lot of stress on the 5U4G rectifier, and I have seen these
glow brightly (along with loss of sound for about 10 seconds) during
these flashovers.

Thanks kreed and Rob.....Age it must be, kinda like us humans. Let's
see, that Seeburg transformer was put in service in
1947, I was born three years after that in 1950.....I have a few
things failing too....knees, back, etc.60+ years does take it's toll!
I appreciated the "history" kreed talks about, very interesting about
problems and fixes they tried back in the day... Replacing my
transformer with another used one likely could just lead to failure
again but would keep the selection receiver "original". On the other
hand this may be the time to bite the bullet and figure out what to
use for a multiple new *transformer set up. A transformer for the 5y3
should not be hard to find, coming up with something for the other
voltages could be a challenge though. I haven't looked yet....

Before you give up on this transformer may I suggest that you cut ALL
the secondary lines (leave just enough to see where the leads went) and
see if you still get the sizzle. It is possible that something on one of
the secondaries is shorted to ground or the other side of the winding.

Then use the 100W (75W is OK) incandescent (only) light bulb in series
on one side of the 115AC input to the transformer to reduce the risk of
smoking up your house - light should be dim if the transformer is OK.

John :-#)#

--
* * (Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup)
* John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
* Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
* * * * * * * * * * *www.flippers.com
* * * *"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."


Your lucky. Such incandescent bulbs have been banned from sale in
Australia by eco-nazis.

In a few years even the use of them will be an offense.


Good advice though.