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"Butchered Jukeboxes" or "All original"



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 8th 08, 03:37 PM posted to alt.collecting.juke-boxes
Jukebox Junkyard
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Posts: 16
Default "Butchered Jukeboxes" or "All original"

Just a little note to add to the thread about the restoration of
Jukes. Those of us that wish all Jukes are to to restored to
"original" condition and not modified in any way have there place,
However just think if all those Seeburg "C's" and "V"s" and Wurlitzer
"2000's" and so forth had not been converted (Butchered) with the WICO
kits. were left alone how many more would there be in original
condition? With many more on the market there would be a definite
reduction in the value of these today. Since there would not be as
rare. With more examples existing it would decrease the rarity
subsequently reducing the value of the ones that would be on the
market.

There is a place for the meticulously restored to original or
unmolested boxes,that would be in a museum for all future generations
to enjoy,and not be used for recreation or entertainment.
Then there are those machines that have been "molested"
"butchered" or modified to work more dependably and serve better for
recreation and entertainment in ones home not in a commercial
environment they were originally designed for which was making money
for the operator.

This is just my opinion on this for what its worth.


The greater the supply the less demand = lower price
The less supply the greater demand = higher price
We are all looking for that "Holy Grail" the unmolested original only
one they made.

Roy
The Jukebox Junkyard
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  #2  
Old April 9th 08, 01:16 AM posted to alt.collecting.juke-boxes
Ken G.
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Posts: 245
Default "Butchered Jukeboxes" or "All original"

There is not one good reason to chop up an original jukebox .

There are hundreds of choices of new stereo equiment out there to listen
to . I dont understand the need to put the modern equipment inside the
jukebox .

Put the modern equipment in the same room as the jukebox to listen to
while the old jukebox is lit up . You then have both to enjoy .

  #3  
Old April 9th 08, 11:17 AM posted to alt.collecting.juke-boxes
Keith Stelter[_2_]
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Posts: 55
Default "Butchered Jukeboxes" or "All original"

EXACTLY!
The ONLY situation where it is acceptable to me to screw with an original
juke is if you found one that was COMPLETELY gutted, and the alternative
would be the dumpster. If I found something like a 40's Seeburg that was
missing all the wiring, the amp, and mech, but had a nice cabinet, I would
first offer it to anyone who had the guts and needed a good "shell". If I
didn't have any takers I MIGHT do something like the modern guts thing.
And as far as too many jukeboxes of a certain model causing the prices to
drop, the entire numbers of these boxes that were produced originally is low
enough to insure that the prices for whatever model is "hot" at any given
time become high. When someone does one of these modifications to the guts,
it just takes a jukebox away from the people who want an original one, and
chances are that it will NEVER be changed back to original. I don't like the
people who do the crazy pink Betty Boop or Elvis paint jobs on jukes, but at
least that can be reasonably reversed.
I don't know how many Continentals were made, but it's hard for me to
believe that if there were a few hundred (probably about the number that
were "modernized" with the kits) more of them available worldwide that the
prices would drop considerably. My opinion , having been in the hobby for
about 25 years now, is that a certain model juke randomly becomes the flavor
of the month that EVERYONE wants and the price of that model skyrockets.
Sometimes that price stays high for a decade, sometimes for only a year or
so. During that frenzy, the prices are limited more by the economy than by
the number of those jukes available. There are a lot of models of jukes that
are much harder to find than a Continental or 2000 Wurly that people won't
pay $500.00 for because they just aren't popular. I only see a United juke
once in a blue moon, and they only go for a few hundred dollars when I do
see them.
I do agree that if ALL the Wurlitzer 2000's made were still around it might
have some impact on the price. If ALL of the 1968 GTO convertibles made
were still around mine would be worth a little less, but that doesn't mean
that it's cool for me to put a corvette motor in mine or make it into an
electric hybrid.
I guess if someone owns something they can do whatever they want to it. I
just think it's a shame to "modernize" ANY classic item from the past,
because 10 years from now when the MP3 touchscreen technology has moved on
to the next thing, those modified jukes will more than likely get trashed.
But if a juke is put back to original, working condition there is a much
greater chance that someone will want it.

"Ken G." wrote in message
...
There is not one good reason to chop up an original jukebox .

There are hundreds of choices of new stereo equiment out there to listen
to . I dont understand the need to put the modern equipment inside the
jukebox .

Put the modern equipment in the same room as the jukebox to listen to
while the old jukebox is lit up . You then have both to enjoy .



  #4  
Old April 9th 08, 03:35 PM posted to alt.collecting.juke-boxes
kreed
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Posts: 376
Default "Butchered Jukeboxes" or "All original"

On Apr 9, 8:17 pm, "Keith Stelter"
wrote:
EXACTLY!
The ONLY situation where it is acceptable to me to screw with an original
juke is if you found one that was COMPLETELY gutted, and the alternative
would be the dumpster. If I found something like a 40's Seeburg that was
missing all the wiring, the amp, and mech, but had a nice cabinet, I would
first offer it to anyone who had the guts and needed a good "shell". If I
didn't have any takers I MIGHT do something like the modern guts thing.
And as far as too many jukeboxes of a certain model causing the prices to
drop, the entire numbers of these boxes that were produced originally is low
enough to insure that the prices for whatever model is "hot" at any given
time become high. When someone does one of these modifications to the guts,
it just takes a jukebox away from the people who want an original one, and
chances are that it will NEVER be changed back to original. I don't like the
people who do the crazy pink Betty Boop or Elvis paint jobs on jukes, but at
least that can be reasonably reversed.
I don't know how many Continentals were made, but it's hard for me to
believe that if there were a few hundred (probably about the number that
were "modernized" with the kits) more of them available worldwide that the
prices would drop considerably. My opinion , having been in the hobby for
about 25 years now, is that a certain model juke randomly becomes the flavor
of the month that EVERYONE wants and the price of that model skyrockets.
Sometimes that price stays high for a decade, sometimes for only a year or
so. During that frenzy, the prices are limited more by the economy than by
the number of those jukes available. There are a lot of models of jukes that
are much harder to find than a Continental or 2000 Wurly that people won't
pay $500.00 for because they just aren't popular. I only see a United juke
once in a blue moon, and they only go for a few hundred dollars when I do
see them.
I do agree that if ALL the Wurlitzer 2000's made were still around it might
have some impact on the price. If ALL of the 1968 GTO convertibles made
were still around mine would be worth a little less, but that doesn't mean
that it's cool for me to put a corvette motor in mine or make it into an
electric hybrid.
I guess if someone owns something they can do whatever they want to it. I
just think it's a shame to "modernize" ANY classic item from the past,
because 10 years from now when the MP3 touchscreen technology has moved on
to the next thing, those modified jukes will more than likely get trashed.
But if a juke is put back to original, working condition there is a much
greater chance that someone will want it.

"Ken G." wrote in message

...

There is not one good reason to chop up an original jukebox .


There are hundreds of choices of new stereo equiment out there to listen
to . I dont understand the need to put the modern equipment inside the
jukebox .


Put the modern equipment in the same room as the jukebox to listen to
while the old jukebox is lit up . You then have both to enjoy .

------------------------------------------------

In addition to the USA AMI production, the Australian licensee NAT-AMI
(National AMI made lots of Continentals, while they arent "dime a
dozen" they aren't that hard to come by, but they are either in poor
condition (one I saw that was advertised as being in "good original
condition" had pretty much every mechanical part seized, including the
200 selection pins, as well as a dead bird and a dead rat in inside,
and rotten wood on the 2 curved back doors) or if they are restored,
they had been "restored" with more modern colour schemes and stuff
like that. (ps, that rotten machine was fully restored in the end, but
not to "original" colours etc.

Im not aware of any widespread 60's/70s "modernisation" kits sold by
distributors being used on these machines.
the machines that I have seen that havent been ruined in modern times
are always the same colour, style and artwork from original, albeit
not in original condition






(I havent personally sold a anything really into the "collector"
market, but for some years during the "boom" times of the 90's I did
mechanical / electrical reconditioning when the machines were
"restored" as well afterwards, doing in-home repair, delivery and
setup. for a "restorer" who sold significant numbers of these machines
into the market, and got excellent prices for them.)

I did put it to him at the time that many of the machines were altered
so radically in the restoration that they were in no way original or
collectable in the true sense of the word anymore.

His response was that "restored to original" machines didnt sell, or
sold for very little for several reasons

The biggest problems you have is from buyers who (used to) pay the big
money for these "restored" machines.
Examples of complaints I remember from these buyers was stuff like -

- (AMI K) "the colour of the laminex used on the sides looks like baby
****, no one would want that ugly colour seen in their lounge room" -
in fact the original colours are not seen as suitable for someone
(usually a bloody yuppie) who has probably spent a fortune on some
yuppie mc mansion in a expensive suburb, including interior decorator
consultants at large expense, and an "original 1950,60" colour scheme
looks like baby **** next to it.

Note also that the potential customers memory (if they were actually
around during the 1960,60 era) or perception (if they werent) of the
colours used in that time are probably something totally different to
the everyday reality of that time.

- "I dont want some amplifier that looks like a metal box with light
globes in bottles on it (vacuum tubes) - no one will be able to fix it
locally, I want modern 300w amp, I want lots of bass, I want it to be
really really loud just like my "1000w home stereo" I just bought etc
etc"

- "it's not stereo" With mono machines, that wasnt acceptable, extra
speakers had to be added to make them stereo. This was done in the
continental by hacking a hole in the front panel and putting the
extra speaker in where the coin box used to sit. obviously a stereo
(modern) amplifier had to then be added.
Continental 2 had side stereo speakers so this wasnt a problem.

-However, the continental 2 didn't have the "4 piece chrome star" on
the front speaker grill. This also wasnt acceptable to buyers, and
unless there was a star, the thing wouldnt sell, and in the end we
were lucky enough to find someone who could make a copy of the
castings so as to add the "star" to these machines. This meant holes
in the mesh and in the panel behind. I think that there was a problem
with the design or cutout size in the speaker mesh used on the
continental 2, that made it necessary to replace it with some non-
genuine mesh, in order to be able to mount the "non genuine" star on
the thing.

Other problems are with the "speckled" finishes that are typically
used on black AMI G-80 models - and on the centre of the chrome cover
domes that sit either side of the record magazine in the G-200. We
found that there was no company in aus. that could do these finishes
to how they had been done at the factory.

I could go on and on about this, but I think you get the general
idea. Remember too, we ONLY did AMI machines.
(as there wasnt much of other US brands in Australia), Im sure if we
had done seeburg, wurlitzer, Rockola etc, the problems would have been
tenfold to what I describe here.

Ironically a lot of the "keep it original" brigade were ones who want
to pay next to nothing for the machine,
expect it to come complete with a free lifetime warranty, and would
complain if there was as much as a speck of dust sitting inside it.
Oh, and they often expect "modern" performance in the sound system etc
- thats usually impossible at best.

AS for the "Betty boop" and "Elvis" designs or pictures shoved on
jukes and other inappropriate places, makes me want to throw up.
  #5  
Old April 13th 08, 09:07 PM posted to alt.collecting.juke-boxes
RJ[_5_]
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Posts: 3
Default "Butchered Jukeboxes" or "All original"

A Seeburg C cabinet, in original form, is not a thing of beauty
 




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