Can't Somebody Stop This Guy??????

Only an idiot would think that this is a genuine silver dollar.

Harold



"Harvey Bastacky" wrote in message
. ..
This guy has been putting up 1879CC Silver plated proof dollars in GSA
look-alike holders and ripping off unsuspecting (and uninformed)
collectors for quite some time.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=3955227 871

Can't anybody stop him?????????????????

All of reading this can quickly discern that this is not a real Carson
City Morgan dollar. Yet it gets bids from the optimistically ignorant.

What to do? Emailing the seller or reporting him to eBay will get
nowhere, since the auction description contains enough detail to alert
the experienced collector that this coin is a reproduction.

For quite a few months now eBay has given lip service to the ANA and
required coin sellers to state that their coins are represented in
accordance with ANA grading standards. Of course, this is not a "coin"
strictly speaking, so eBay can collect their final value fees from the
seller once the winning bidiot has paid.

There have been a couple of fruitless attempts to get eBay to either
create a new category for reproductions/copies/fakes or force sellers
to onclude "copy", "reproduction" or some similar word in the item
specifics. Still this one is listed as "Certified" "Carson City"
"Siver" "Proof", for which precious few Morgans would qualify. Yes,
eBay could be doing more to alert mentally retarded bidders that this
is not a real 1879-CC GSA Morgan dollar.

I agree with Steve that eBay and cable TV auctions of such
reproductions will continue until the sources that create them cease to
exist. I think that these silver plated fakes were made with
despicable motives, and do not condone those selling them to the
public.

In the meantime, is there any way we can take less than draconian
measures to stop such preying on the ignorant? Much of the U.S. gross
domestic product is generated by preying on the ignorant. Perhaps this
auction simply epitomizes that the U.S. gross domestic product is gross
indeed, and cannot be compared to the economy of Tibetan monks or more
enlightened citizens of this planet.

If the federal government were to outlaw misrepresentation so that
every advertisement was clear to the most stupid citizen, we would live
in a society described by Kurt Vonnegut in his 1960s short story
"Harrison Bergeron". Under that scenario, all Americans were finally
equal when each person was fitted with a heavy suit of lead weights
proportional to their intelligence and physical strength so that no one
could do anything other than sit in their chair and watch TV.


Shystev99 wrote:
I agree. This auction is no different from the TV ads. It is
clearly
stated that this is a reproduction and "replication". The one
thing
that I
hate to see is that "100 mil .999 pure silver proof" wording. This
kind of
language is obviously designed to imply to non-numismatists that,
reproduction or not, this is a .999 silver coin. A simple "Silver
plated"
would be much more truthful and informative, but certainly would
not
attract
as many potential buyers.

Unlike unavoidable TV commercials, anyone landing on this auction
site would
most likely have been searching for coin-related auctions. Once
there, even
if they are uninformed, they are responsible for any bid decisions
they
make.

Bruce

I agree with you that the wording of the .999 Silver coin MAY sound
deceptive but my next question would be, Is the coin solid silver or
is
it plated. As far as I know there is no law against selling pure
silver
coins even if they are advertised as copies or replicas. The
Franklin
Mint used to mint .999 silver coins all the time when they were in
business back in the 70's. Now these coins weren't all replicas of
actual coins but still I don't think anybody selling silver in bar
form
or coin form is illegal.....Is it? (I'm not talking about deliberate
counterfit coins designed to circulate and fool consumers, I mean
coins
that are advertised as copies or replicas)
Now if the coins are infact plated then....Absolutley it's unethical
and wrong.

But if everybody feels so passionatley about this then there are
options, Some of you suggest stopping the seller. Well that won't
solve
the overall problem. The better solution would be for us to get
together as a group (Which we are) write up some proposal that would
make it illegal for any mint to mint their coins in the form of any
US
minted coin throughout the history of the mint. Meaning
reproductions,
copies, replicas or any other slick wording of any pre existing coin
would be banned altogtether. We then submit that proposal to a local
congressman, Or numerous congressmen and see where they can take it.
To
give it somekind of backbone we can also create a petition that
collectors, reputable dealers, US Mint officials, or anyone else
interested could sign. We could find reputable dealers (Many which
are
in this group) to maybe help get the word out about this law or bill
on
their websites, Coin shows, storefronts etc... Now some of you may
laugh at this idea, Hell I'm laughing at it a little bit myself. But
when you think about it with the coin market the way it is and with
it
as popular as it is some senators and congressmen might actually bite
at it. Now would it happen overnight? No It will be a long drawn out
process that would be very frustrating and tedious at times. But
again
if you guys are truly as passionate as you sound I say it's something
we should atleast think about. And any collectors here outside of the
US can hopefully seek the same kind of option in their countries.
Point being, If we make these reproductions, copies and replicas of
EXISTING OR HISTORICAL U.S. AND GLOBAL LEGAL TENDER then ebay or any
other auction site would have to enforce and restrict not having it
sold on their sites.

If you truly want to stop it you have to goto the source, Not the
sellers.
Steve

"Shystev99" wrote
I don't even know that I'd call it defending him as pointing out the
obvious fact that people have to read the description and understand
what it is they are bidding on before they bid. Or they have no
business bidding. It's got nothing to do with defending him. I don't
know him so I can't defend or attack him.

But at some point people have to use simple common sense, An analogy
could be the election system. Year in and Year out we see problem after
problem with ballots, Now vast majority of these problems aren't caused
or created by the system but caused by the people who are to stupid or
lazy to understand what they are doing enough to take the time to do it
right. All the directions are there, If you need help you just ask the
election workers and they will help you. But people don't do that, They
don't read the directions, They don't know how to vote properly and
they don't bother asking for help, then when their ballots gets tossed
out or doesn't count it's everybody else's fault BUT theirs. We
wouldn't have problems with dimpled chads, hanging chads, pregnant
chads or any other kind of friggin chad if people just took the
additional time to check and doublecheck their ballot and their votes
before they turn it in. What's it take an additional 30 seconds maybe a
minute tops? You just pull your card out, run your finger over the back
clearing all the chads, pop it back in the slot and doublecheck your
votes 1 by 1.
But it's just a whole lot easier not to do it and blame society and
especially Bush. If people are yo stupid or lazy to read the directions
and understand exactly what they are doing is that the whole nations
problem or theirs?

The law states otherwise. In the case against the sellers of the Hutt River
Province "coins" which were advertised as legal tender, but were not, the
judge ruled:

Express misrepresentations are not required. It is the net impression which
the solicitation is likely to make upon individuals to whom it is directed
which is important. If it is artfully designed to mislead those responding
to it, the false representation statute is applicable. The statute is
intended to protect the gullible, naive, and less critical reader, as well
as the more sophisticated, wary reader. G.J. Howard Co. v. Cassidy, 162 F.
Supp. 568 (E.D.N.Y. 1958); See also, Virginia State Board of Pharmacy v.
Virginia Citizens Consumer Council, 425 U.S. 748 (1976).
Where an advertisement is ambiguous or capable of more than one meaning, if
one of those meanings is false, the advertisement will be held to be
misleading. Finderhood, Inc., P.S. Docket No.34/102, slip op. at 8-9 (P.S.D.
March 20, 1992), and cases cited; The National Gold Mint, P.S. Docket No.
22/165, slip op. at 22 (P.S.D. May 1, 1987).

The clock collecting community has also been plagued by fakes on ebay.

http://clockhistory.com/westclox/other/fakes/index.html

Shystev99 wrote:
I agree. This auction is no different from the TV ads. It is clearly
stated that this is a reproduction and "replication". The one thing that I
hate to see is that "100 mil .999 pure silver proof" wording. This kind of
language is obviously designed to imply to non-numismatists that,
reproduction or not, this is a .999 silver coin. A simple "Silver plated"
would be much more truthful and informative, but certainly would not attract
as many potential buyers.

Unlike unavoidable TV commercials, anyone landing on this auction site would
most likely have been searching for coin-related auctions. Once there, even
if they are uninformed, they are responsible for any bid decisions they
make.

Bruce

I agree with you that the wording of the .999 Silver coin MAY sound
deceptive but my next question would be, Is the coin solid silver or is
it plated. As far as I know there is no law against selling pure silver
coins even if they are advertised as copies or replicas. The Franklin
Mint used to mint .999 silver coins all the time when they were in
business back in the 70's. Now these coins weren't all replicas of
actual coins but still I don't think anybody selling silver in bar form
or coin form is illegal.....Is it? (I'm not talking about deliberate
counterfit coins designed to circulate and fool consumers, I mean coins
that are advertised as copies or replicas)
Now if the coins are infact plated then....Absolutley it's unethical
and wrong.

The wording "100 mil" indicates the thickness of the silver. "100 mil .999 pure
silver clad base" indicates that the item is made of an unspecified base metal
that is plated with silver. This is immediately clear to metallurgists and most
collectors, but not to the mass market the ads are intended to reach. Does your
Aunt Nellie know what 100 mil equates to? Carefully crafted to be legally
correct, but exploitative in its intent.


But if everybody feels so passionatley about this then there are
options, Some of you suggest stopping the seller. Well that won't solve
the overall problem. The better solution would be for us to get
together as a group (Which we are) write up some proposal that would
make it illegal for any mint to mint their coins in the form of any US
minted coin throughout the history of the mint. Meaning reproductions,
copies, replicas or any other slick wording of any pre existing coin
would be banned altogtether. We then submit that proposal to a local
congressman, Or numerous congressmen and see where they can take it. To
give it somekind of backbone we can also create a petition that
collectors, reputable dealers, US Mint officials, or anyone else
interested could sign. We could find reputable dealers (Many which are
in this group) to maybe help get the word out about this law or bill on
their websites, Coin shows, storefronts etc... Now some of you may
laugh at this idea, Hell I'm laughing at it a little bit myself. But
when you think about it with the coin market the way it is and with it
as popular as it is some senators and congressmen might actually bite
at it. Now would it happen overnight? No It will be a long drawn out
process that would be very frustrating and tedious at times. But again
if you guys are truly as passionate as you sound I say it's something
we should atleast think about. And any collectors here outside of the
US can hopefully seek the same kind of option in their countries.
Point being, If we make these reproductions, copies and replicas of
EXISTING OR HISTORICAL U.S. AND GLOBAL LEGAL TENDER then ebay or any
other auction site would have to enforce and restrict not having it
sold on their sites.


I think most collectors are upset with these "coin" promotions because they can
sully the image of coin collecting in general. Newspaper articles and word of
mouth complaints will give the impression that coin collecting has been
infiltrated by a bunch of scam artists.

I believe one way to discourage this kind of thing is to somehow educate the
public as to any deceptive language used in each promotion. I don't know of a
practical way to reach the mass market with this information. If only it could
be made widely known (legally) that this particular item is actually a
privately-produced replica of a US silver dollar coin that has been silver
plated to somewhat resemble the appearance of the original dollar which itself
was made of 90% pure silver. Except for its appearance, this replica is totally
unrelated to any coin produced by the US Govt. That it is called "proof" is not
necessarily comparable to how the US Mint produced proof coins.

From there, the public is at least able to make a better informed decision on
whether to buy one of these things.

Bruce

"Bruce Remick" wrote

The wording "100 mil" indicates the thickness of the silver. "100 mil
.999 pure
silver clad base" indicates that the item is made of an unspecified base
metal
that is plated with silver. This is immediately clear to metallurgists
and most
collectors, but not to the mass market the ads are intended to reach.

Except a mil is 1/1000 of an inch, and they use the term to mean
a millionth of an inch.

And the term "clad" refers to the OUTER layer, like an iron-clad
warship. "Pure silver clad base" is incorrect. The clad is silver, not
the base!

In a recent message "Frank Provasek" wrote:

"Bruce Remick" wrote

The wording "100 mil" indicates the thickness of the silver. "100 mil
.999 pure
silver clad base" indicates that the item is made of an unspecified base
metal
that is plated with silver. This is immediately clear to metallurgists
and most
collectors, but not to the mass market the ads are intended to reach.

Except a mil is 1/1000 of an inch, and they use the term to mean
a millionth of an inch.

And the term "clad" refers to the OUTER layer, like an iron-clad
warship. "Pure silver clad base" is incorrect. The clad is silver, not
the base!

Technically the term pure silver clad base implies a base that
is clad with silver that is pure.

Not that I condone this type of artefact.

I was nearly fooled by a coin that appeared to be mediaeval,
but was actually a modern copy made by the Bigbury Mint.

--
Tony Clayton or
Coins of the UK : http://www.tclayton.demon.co.uk/coins.html
Metals used in Coins : http://www.tclayton.demon.co.uk/metal.html
Sent using RISCOS on an Acorn Strong Arm RiscPC
.... "Virtual" means never knowing where your next byte is coming from.

Harvey Bastacky wrote:
This guy has been putting up 1879CC Silver plated proof dollars in GSA
look-alike holders and ripping off unsuspecting (and uninformed) collectors
for quite some time.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=3955227 871

Can't anybody stop him?????????????????


What is it "exactly", you think he's doing wrong, or dishonest. He
spells it out plain and clear what you are going to bid on. If this is
what a person wants, let them buy them. Otherwise take Ian'a advice, and
"YOU" do something before he causes the collapse of the World Economy :-)

--
Your Friend in Gold Mining............... John

Artifical Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity

On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 17:50:50 -0500, John Mason
wrote:

Harvey Bastacky wrote:
This guy has been putting up 1879CC Silver plated proof dollars in GSA
look-alike holders and ripping off unsuspecting (and uninformed) collectors
for quite some time.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=3955227 871

Can't anybody stop him?????????????????


What is it "exactly", you think he's doing wrong, or dishonest. He
spells it out plain and clear what you are going to bid on. If this is
what a person wants, let them buy them. Otherwise take Ian'a advice, and
"YOU" do something before he causes the collapse of the World Economy :-)

Well.....for one thing he titles the auction:

"1879-CC GSA MORGAN SILVER PROOF DOLLAR !!!"

There is no such thing.

"Frank Provasek" wrote in message
nk.net...
"Bruce Remick" wrote

The wording "100 mil" indicates the thickness of the silver. "100 mil
.999 pure
silver clad base" indicates that the item is made of an unspecified base
metal
that is plated with silver. This is immediately clear to metallurgists
and most
collectors, but not to the mass market the ads are intended to reach.

Except a mil is 1/1000 of an inch, and they use the term to mean
a millionth of an inch.

And the term "clad" refers to the OUTER layer, like an iron-clad
warship. "Pure silver clad base" is incorrect. The clad is silver, not
the base!


This awkward word sequence can be interpreted several ways, especially with no
hyphens, and I presume that was the intent of the people who crafted the text
for the sales promotion. But at least the use of the word "clad" indicates
there are two metals here. Anyone who interprets these words to mean he will
receive a .999 pure silver coin plated with an unspecified metal deserves to
learn a lesson the hard way.

Bruce