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bleach and books



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 31st 04, 04:47 AM
gr
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Posts: n/a
Default bleach and books

As a newcomer to this group, I read with some interest a recent
discussion about the use of bleach (chlorine assumed) to clean the edges
of a book.
I noted a number of outraged responses, and this is reasonable for rare
books, but the individual was working with what he considered an
expendable book. I tend to want to preserve artifacts for future
generations, so cautions are advised for all in the use of various
chemicals. The responses overall ranged from useful, to distressed, to
explanatory. Mostly this newsgroup seems quite civil and informative and
I am glad it is available.
BTW; a comment of my own about bleach/chemicals. There is a parallel in
the photographic world for fiber based photo papers, and the long term
effects that fixer has on the photo image, because it clings tenaciously
to the paper fibers (unless washed for 15-60 minutes in continuously
running water) and then can attack the photo emulsion, discoloring both
the paper and the image.
gr
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  #2  
Old August 31st 04, 05:45 PM
Bill Palmer
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Default

gr wrote in message ...
As a newcomer to this group, I read with some interest a recent
discussion about the use of bleach (chlorine assumed) to clean the edges
of a book.
I noted a number of outraged responses, and this is reasonable for rare
books, but the individual was working with what he considered an
expendable book.


While I appreciate your informative response,
I wish to correct the mistaken notion that I
considered the seventy year old Scribner classic
in question "an expendable book." Rather, my
point was that it was a defaced book when I
obtained it, and my goal was simply to improve
the looks of the book. My experiment was
successful in doing that. The page edges
look great now.

Further, what I found significant was the
fact that those few who were attacking me and
making the dire predictions for the book ignored
the fact that once bleach is successfully removed,
the oxidation process is halted. As I stated
earlier, were that not the case, one could never
remove a coffee or tea stain from a white cotten
T-shirt though the direct application of bleach,
followed by a thorough rinsing with water as soon
as the spot disappears. Yet, people use bleach
for such mundane stain removal chores all the time.
Further, were it not possible to halt the effects
of bleach by washing, getting any bleach on one's
hands would mean a trip to the hospital and
possible amputation!

Of course, regarding bleach applied to many
substances, the effects of bleach can be halted
by rinsing. That includes paper, at least the
sort of paper surface you get when page edges
are pressed tightly together.

I cleaned the page edges very carefully using
q-tips and bleach, and then I rinsed the page
edges very lightly with a damp piece of terry
cloth. After that, I opened the book and set
it by a window to let both any remaining bleach
evaporate along with the moisture.

Right now, the page edges are as white as
one might expect of a brand new book. Further,
I see no reason at all to expect that the
book will deteriorate more rapidly in the
future as the result of my experiment, because
there just isn't enough bleach residue in the
page edges to cause that.

So you see, I did not consider the book
expendable, except in the sense that often
when you experiment, you have to allow for
a downside, for things going awry. I guess
you could say that I gambled that if I were
extremely careful, I could improve the looks
of a defaced book. I won the gamble.
Of course, I was acting as book owner here,
rather than a book investor or book seller.
I simply do not wish to have books around
my home that defaced with a lot of library
discard junk.

Anyway, thanks again for sharing your
thoughts.



Mr. Palmer
Room 314 in the upstairs office

I tend to want to preserve artifacts for future
generations, so cautions are advised for all in the use of various
chemicals. The responses overall ranged from useful, to distressed, to
explanatory. Mostly this newsgroup seems quite civil and informative and
I am glad it is available.
BTW; a comment of my own about bleach/chemicals. There is a parallel in
the photographic world for fiber based photo papers, and the long term
effects that fixer has on the photo image, because it clings tenaciously
to the paper fibers (unless washed for 15-60 minutes in continuously
running water) and then can attack the photo emulsion, discoloring both
the paper and the image.
gr

  #3  
Old August 31st 04, 05:52 PM
Francis A. Miniter
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

gr wrote:

As a newcomer to this group, I read with some interest a recent
discussion about the use of bleach (chlorine assumed) to clean the
edges of a book.
I noted a number of outraged responses, and this is reasonable for
rare books, but the individual was working with what he considered an
expendable book. I tend to want to preserve artifacts for future
generations, so cautions are advised for all in the use of various
chemicals. The responses overall ranged from useful, to distressed, to
explanatory. Mostly this newsgroup seems quite civil and informative
and I am glad it is available.
BTW; a comment of my own about bleach/chemicals. There is a parallel
in the photographic world for fiber based photo papers, and the long
term effects that fixer has on the photo image, because it clings
tenaciously to the paper fibers (unless washed for 15-60 minutes in
continuously running water) and then can attack the photo emulsion,
discoloring both the paper and the image.
gr



On the photographic side, a number of important qualifications must be
stated.

First, the fiber based photographic paper has three porous layers, the
emulsion, consisting of silver halides (converted by development to
elemental silver), the baryta (barium sulfate) layer, and the pulp
backing, and I believe that the papers are pH neutral. Second, the
bleach used is not a chlorine bleach but - usually - one consisting of
potassium ferricyanide and potassium bromide. The bleach is used to
remove the silver from the emulsion layer to create a latent matrix for
redevelopment and replacement of the silver by a more archival
substance, often sodium sulfide or thiourea or potash. I do not know
what the effects of potassium ferricyanide bleach (the active
ingredient) are on cellulose fiber, but (1) the print is thoroughly and
vigorously washed to remove all bleach before being redeveloped
[something not available with books], but the effect must be minimal
since sepia toned prints have been around for about 150 years; (2) the
objective of the photographic bleaching is action upon the emulsion
layer, not on the cellulose layer.

If you want a really powerful bleach, try a solution of potassium
permanganate, which turns the substrate bluish red, and which is washed
out with a sodium sulfite solution.

A really good resource for achivability of all materials is the Abbey
Newletter, the online archives of which is available at:
http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byorg/abbey/an/


Francis A. Miniter

  #4  
Old September 1st 04, 03:16 AM
Francis A. Miniter
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Francis A. Miniter wrote:

gr wrote:

As a newcomer to this group, I read with some interest a recent
discussion about the use of bleach (chlorine assumed) to clean the
edges of a book.
I noted a number of outraged responses, and this is reasonable for
rare books, but the individual was working with what he considered an
expendable book. I tend to want to preserve artifacts for future
generations, so cautions are advised for all in the use of various
chemicals. The responses overall ranged from useful, to distressed, to
explanatory. Mostly this newsgroup seems quite civil and informative
and I am glad it is available.
BTW; a comment of my own about bleach/chemicals. There is a parallel
in the photographic world for fiber based photo papers, and the long
term effects that fixer has on the photo image, because it clings
tenaciously to the paper fibers (unless washed for 15-60 minutes in
continuously running water) and then can attack the photo emulsion,
discoloring both the paper and the image.
gr




On the photographic side, a number of important qualifications must be
stated.
First, the fiber based photographic paper has three porous layers, the
emulsion, consisting of silver halides (converted by development to
elemental silver), the baryta (barium sulfate) layer, and the pulp
backing, and I believe that the papers are pH neutral. Second, the
bleach used is not a chlorine bleach but - usually - one consisting of
potassium ferricyanide and potassium bromide. The bleach is used to
remove the silver from the emulsion layer to create a latent matrix for
redevelopment and replacement of the silver by a more archival
substance, often sodium sulfide or thiourea or potash. I do not know
what the effects of potassium ferricyanide bleach (the active
ingredient) are on cellulose fiber, but (1) the print is thoroughly and
vigorously washed to remove all bleach before being redeveloped
[something not available with books], but the effect must be minimal
since sepia toned prints have been around for about 150 years; (2) the
objective of the photographic bleaching is action upon the emulsion
layer, not on the cellulose layer.
If you want a really powerful bleach, try a solution of potassium
permanganate, which turns the substrate bluish red, and which is washed
out with a sodium sulfite solution.


Make that sodium bisulfite.

A really good resource for achivability of all materials is the Abbey
Newletter, the online archives of which is available at:
http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byorg/abbey/an/


Francis A. Miniter


  #5  
Old September 1st 04, 03:34 AM
Francis A. Miniter
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

gr wrote:

As a newcomer to this group, I read with some interest a recent
discussion about the use of bleach (chlorine assumed) to clean the edges
of a book.
I noted a number of outraged responses, and this is reasonable for rare
books, but the individual was working with what he considered an
expendable book. I tend to want to preserve artifacts for future
generations, so cautions are advised for all in the use of various
chemicals. The responses overall ranged from useful, to distressed, to
explanatory. Mostly this newsgroup seems quite civil and informative and
I am glad it is available.
snip
gr



A good internet article on the effects of chlorine bleach on
paper is to be found at:
http://aic.stanford.edu/sg/bpg/annual/v01/bp01-05.html

And this article on which chlorine dioxide is preferable to
the standard hypochlorite bleach as it does not attack
cellulose.
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp160-c5.pdf

And finally this from the Abbey Newsletter
http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byaut...ow/chap06.html


Francis A. Miniter

  #6  
Old September 1st 04, 07:17 AM
Bill Palmer
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Posts: n/a
Default

"michael adams" wrote in message ...
"Bill Palmer" wrote in message
om...

Further, what I found significant was the
fact that those few who were attacking me and
making the dire predictions for the book ignored
the fact that once bleach is successfully removed,
the oxidation process is halted.



You can't remove the bleach by dabbing it with water with
a Q tip Palmer. You'd need to soak the entire page. And
then thoroughly rinse away the solution.


Not true, because the bleach is only on the page
edges. Do you have to take a shower and scrub
yourself like you were trying to remove
radioactive material every time you get a bit
of bleach on your hands? I applied the bleach
gently with the q-tips, and then I rinsed, also
gently, with a damp piece of terry cloth. That's
all it took. You and a few others remind me
something I read about tomatoes. A long time
ago, at least in some cultures, no one would
eat tomatoes, because of a folk belief that
they were poison. Of course, since everyone
thought tomatoes were poison, no one would eat
them, and people continued to believe they
were poison. That is sort of what has
happened to you and a few other hide-bound
types in this group. Early on, someone
drilled a rule into you which says, "NEVER
use bleach on a book." As a result, you
become angry when I confront your narrow
view on this. A better rule is, "Bleach
should be used on books only in certain
unusual circumstances, and then, with
extreme care."


Mr. Palmer
Room 314


Just make a tiny mark with a water soluble dye in an
equivalent situation Palmer. And then try removing all
traces of that dye by simply dabbing it with water
with a Q tip.

You can't can you Palmer? All that happens is that the
dilute dye spreads. Just as the dilute bleach has spread.
Your wetting the page with water, has simply aided the
spread of the bleach.


michael adams

...

 




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