Storing fountain pens with ink in them?

mz wrote:

... With your problems, have you disassembled any
of the pens to determine the exact cause? If not,
the cause may not be as you suspect. One culprit
may be the ink you use. If it's not impertinent,
what do you use?

Hiya Mark... I thought your point about inner caps was excellent. No
one had mentioned that possibility before you brought it up. I have a
late '30s
early '40s Mabie Todd Swan here that fails to start
or starts slowly after being left nib-up overnight. The thing doesn't
have an inner cap. Not sure whether it was made that way or if some
would-be restorer removed the inner cap and failed to replace it. At
any rate, there's no inner cap, and I have no doubt that that's why
it's prone to become sluggish between uses if left nib up. My pens
with inner caps have no difficulty whatsoever starting after being
left nib up (sometimes for considerably longer than overnight), and
none has clogged. My experience is consistent with yours... my pens
never need soaking to flow properly. Back to inner caps---It amazes me
that even though pen companies started using inner caps in about 1900,
many cheaply-made pens manufactured since then don't have inner
caps... as if an inner cap is going to add that much to price of a
pen! My Conklin crescents, made during the teens/early
twenties, have inner caps and seal well. That Swan, made about 20
years later doesn't have one. I'd love to know which of Virgil's pens
(make, model, approximate vintage) actually *dry out* when left nib-up
for short periods of time (e.g., overnight)?
Take care, B

In article xD%6h.7384$5P2.5341@trnddc02,
"BL" wrote:

That's one sensitive scale you've got there, Jon. If that's what an
entire Pelikan 100N nib/feed assembly weighs, can you imagine what a
wispy little Conklin #2 nib weighs?

So, 0.003 oz;
14K is 58.5% gold,
giving us 0.001755 oz;
Today's price of about $600.00/oz means it would
cost $1.05 in materials. However, the nib is from
the 1930s, so if we apply $20.00/oz we get $0.035
cents for the whole shebang. There's no way 3.5
cents in 1936 was exorbitant or reserved for the
high rollers.

Bern--

Yes, it is a very sensitive scale, a jeweler's scale accurate to 0.1g --
not as sensitive as a diamond scale but great for weighing gold. However
my new eyeglasses must have been interfering with my ability to place a
decimal point. The Pelikan nib assembly weighs 0.03 troy oz, so let's do
the numbers again:

0.03 oz @ 58.5% gold gives 0.01755 oz;
Sticking with the current gold price of about $600.00/oz gives
$10.53 current value which makes a bit more sense given the astronomical
price of vintage Pelikan nib assemblies.
Moving backward in time to Budapest 1936 ends up with $0.351. I am
pretty sure that wouldn't have bought a steak dinner (or Gulash, for
that matter).

Right around then the existing Hungarian currency, the Pengo, was in the
same nosedive as the rest of Europe's paper money. My father brought
back a wad of inflation currency -- the largest denomination bill is 1
million billion billion Pengo, and it has a government stamp on it
increasing its value by 1 million. See what happens when you print money
to pay your debts? Even so, 35 cents for a nib seems like quite the
bargain...

Jon

--
jon fabian
looked good on paper
f a b i a n "at" p a n i x "dot" c o m

jon fabian wrote:

... Even so, 35 cents for a nib seems like quite
the bargain...

Heya Jon... We're still talking about a tiny amount. 'Sides, I don't
think your grandfather could have gotten a steel nib on your dad's
Pelikan even if he'd wanted to as Pelikan hadn't started using steel
for nibs on fountain pens in 1936. -- B

mz a écrit :

virgiliopoeta wrote:


I have noticed that pens stored nib-up, whatever their seal, require to
be soaked periodically in order to maintain their proper ink flow. I do
not see how any other explanation other than dried ink in the feed will
explain the observed facts.


For decades my fountain pens, except for desk pens, have been stored
nib up, and none have required periodic soaking for proper ink flow.
They have been flushed on occasion, as all pens should be regardless
of how they are stored. However our experiences are anecdotal, and
neither may be representative.

Since my pens have not had problems, there has been no need to
investigate further. With your problems, have you disassembled any
of the pens to determine the exact cause? If not, the cause may not
be as you suspect. One culprit may be the ink you use. If it's not
impertinent, what do you use?

Mark Z.

Perhaps I should have used the word flushing' instead of 'soaking'. I
have noticed that pens stored horizontally or nib down require much
less frequent flushing to maintain good, crisp ink flow. I soak pens
only when I first get them - and there is no good substitute for this
if you want to restore a pen to pristine writing condition.

It is never impertinent to ask polite questions, and possibly help
others detect points that they may have missed. I have tried 20 or so
ink brands over the years, chiefly black and red. I write in black and
make annotations - or add extraneous matter - in red. I formerly
preferred the old Skrip, but dislike the new, and now prefer Parker
Quink.Others here may have found better, more expensive inks, but I do
a LOT of writing. I am translating Virgil's Aeneid into English
fourteener verse rhyming aaba bbcb ccdc etc for example, which as of
the eleventh book fills 41 thick folders with the Latin text, so I need
a good, cheap ink. Quink fills the bill.

BL a écrit :

virgiliopoeta wrote:

You are asserting then that the entire nib
assembly of your Pelikan weighs three thousandths
of an ounce or roughly 3/1000 of 28 grams? This
would be 84/1000 of a gram, or about 1/12 gram. I
am afraid that this is out of the question.

I just weighed an entire Conklin 20 sans cap. So, we're talking a hard
rubber barrel, hard rubber section, nib-feed assembly,
crescent/pressure bar assembly (much heavier than the wispy little
nib), hard rubber lock ring, and rubber sac, and the whole shebang
weighed in at a whopping .2 oz (or 5 grams) using a digital postal
scale. So, I don't think Jon's number (1/12 of gram for his nib-feed
assembly) is much of a stretch at all. -- B

The internet is indeed a wonderful place, where hundreds of millions of
happy schoolchildren can each have golden nibs for a tuppence... which
said nibs must be carefully kept in their box however, or some passing
breeze may blow them all away like feathers!...

I have observed that the gentleman - but alas, he is no gentleman - is
amazingly ignorant of pen lore. Ignorance is no crime, but insulting
arrogance is. Yet now he strays from mere ignorance and arrogance into
outright insanity.

And pray where, my young master, shall I get my bread and ale to eat
with my _green cheese_, once I shall fly to the Moon?

But O alas! sat man moust liven onne weighter earth...

Medium-size steel nibs weigh around 1/3 gram (0,33 g), 14k gold nibs
about 4/5 gram (0,8 g). Of course, as modern pen fabricators make their
nibs ever larger - a damned nuisance if you ask me - the average gold
nib is inching ever closer to a full, heavy, bludgeoning one whole
gram.

Anyone can verify these weights if he has a scale of a fine enough
accuracy. If you get appreciably different results (such as 1/10 or
1/20 gram), there is something wrong with your scale, you are reading
it wrong, you do not understand what a gram is - or you are a
practical joker.

These weights are useful primarily to distinguish readily between
gold-plated nibs and 14k gold nibs without the slight trouble of
examining them closely, and are well-known to those familiar with
fountain pens.None of this requires investigation, although I suppose
it does no harm, provided the investigators are acting in good faith,
and not with a ridiculous urge to 'show somebody up'.

At historic gold prices of $1500-2000/oz (2006 US dollars) gold nibs
were therefore worth around $50-70. This is why they were used
sparingly for elite pens only. Of course only 7/12 of the weight is
gold, but the hefty markup on worked or wrought gold objects, and the
additional retail markup, more than outweights this, so that in the
trade, a gold-nibbed pen would bring $70-90 more than a steel-nibbed
one (2006 US dollars).

Of course at today's artificially low gold prices - the same banks that
benefit from printing our fiat currencies in England and America, also
set the gold price - the markup is much less, only $30-40.

I will not deign to reply further to anyone who hotly disputes these
very ordinary and well-known facts, as they are not serious
correspondants.

HO! HO! HO! laughs Santa, and turns away to feed his reindeer...

virgiliopoeta wrote:

At historic gold prices of $1500-2000/oz (2006 US
dollars) gold nibs were therefore worth around
$50-70. This is why they were used sparingly for
elite pens only.

Virgilio,
Whatever you do, do NOT respond to specific factual statements such
as:

The prices of replacement nibs for Parker 51s were as follows (from
the 1960 Parker parts list) --
Octanium = 65 cents
Gold = $1.50

Prices from 1941 catalogs:

Esterbrook J w/steel nib (not the more expensive osmiridiu tipped nib)
= 2.00

Parker Parkette Zephyr (w/14k gold nib) = 1.95

Sheaffer Junior Long (striped Radite) with visulated section and 14k
gold nib = 2.75

1937 Conklin (Toledo) All American = 1.95

Parker Parkettes, Sheaffer Juniors, and Conkin All-Americans were not
"elite pens," nor were the many other lower-tier, student, and no-name
pens that sported 14k nibs. Time to throw in the towel, Virgilio. -- B

virgiliopoeta wrote:

Medium-size steel nibs weigh around 1/3 gram (0,33
g), 14k gold nibs about 4/5 gram (0,8 g).

..8 g = .028 oz

..028 oz. x $600/per oz. (current price of gold) = 16.80. $16.80 x .58
(amount of pure gold in 14k alloy) = about $9.74.

..028 x $21 (price of gold during much of the heyday of fountain
pens... 1884-1932) = 59 cents x .58 = 34 cents

Using the inflation adjusted price of gold published by the USGS:

http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2000/of00-389/of00-389.pdf

we get about $3.25 - $6.50 worth of gold (inflation-adjusted prices)
in a nib that weighs .028 ounces throughout much of the heyday of
fountain pens.

At historic gold prices of $1500-2000/oz (2006 US
dollars)

How do you get $1500-$2000 per ounce from $21 per ounce?

the hefty markup on worked or wrought gold
objects, and the additional retail markup, more
than outweights this, so that in the trade, a
gold-nibbed pen would bring $70-90 more than a
steel-nibbed one (2006 US dollars).

Again:

The prices of replacement nibs for Parker 51s were as follows (from
the 1960 Parker parts list) --
Octanium = 65 cents
Gold = $1.50

Prices from 1941 catalogs:

Esterbrook J w/steel nib (not the more expensive osmiridium-tipped
steel nib)= 2.00

Parker Parkette Zephyr (w/14k gold nib) = 1.95

Sheaffer Junior Long (striped Radite) with visulated section and 14k
gold nib = 2.75

1937 Conklin (Toledo) All American = 1.95

1913 price to replace #2 Conklin nib = 1.00
1913 price to replace #2 Conklin HR barrel = 1.25

Number of steel-nibbed pens offered by Waterman in 1895, 1925, and
1933 = 0
Number of steel-nibbed pens offered by Conklin in 1909 and 1913 = 0
Number of steel-nibbed pens offered by Parker in 1921, 1938, 1939,
1940, and 1941 = 0
Number of steel-nibbed pens offered by Sheaffer in 1941 = 0
Number of steel-nibbed pens offered by Wahl in 1925 and 1929 = 0

If the Big 4 (plus Conklin) produced 0 pens with steel nibs between
the late 1800s and the early '40s, who was manufacturing all those
steel-nibbed pens back then?

HO! HO! HO! laughs Santa, and turns away to feed
his reindeer...

Uh-oh! Santa's not feeding his reindeer what he's been smoking is he?
Merry Christmas, Santa ... B

In article Sn4dh.4370$QC.826@trnddc02,
"BL" wrote:

The prices of replacement nibs for Parker 51s were as follows (from
the 1960 Parker parts list) --
Octanium = 65 cents
Gold = $1.50


OK I finally dug up some loose nibs and have accurate weights. All
weighed on a Gram Precision Pocket-Tech 200, capacity 200g, graduation
0.1g

6 Examples of Waterman #2 14K nibs, perhaps the most common nib of its
period found in the 52 and other 2-series mainstream pens:

A. 0.4g 0.0141 oz 58.5% gold content 0.0082 oz
B. 0.3g 0.0106 oz 58.5% gold content 0.0062 oz
C. 0.3g 0.0106 oz 58.5% gold content 0.0062 oz
D. 0.4g 0.0141 oz 58.5% gold content 0.0082 oz
E. 0.3g 0.0106 oz 58.5% gold content 0.0062 oz
F. 0.3g 0.0106 oz 58.5% gold content 0.0062 oz

Gold value at today's price of $652.200/oz, historic price of $21.00/oz

Today Historic
A. $5.3480 $0.1722
B. 4.0436 0.1302
C. 4.0436 0.1302
D. 5.3480 0.1722
E. 4.0436 0.1302
F. 4.0436 0.1302

==========

One Waterman "100-Year" 18K nib, a big nib used in the 100-Year pens
which were high-end:

0.7g 0.0247 oz 75.0% gold content 0.0185 oz

Today Historic
$12.0820 $0.3890

==========

And, a Parker 51 nib, don't know the vintage but if they were $1.50 in
1960 they were probably what we might call a bargain:

0.4g 0.0141 oz 58.5% gold content 0.0082 oz

Today Historic
$5.3480 $0.1722

==========

And just for comparison, a Conklin crescent bar (brass) weighs:

1.8g / 0.0635 oz

==========

OK, so much for raw gold content. There is a considerable amount of
labor involved in making a nib, no matter the material. Just as the
price of a piece of jewelry is significantly higher than the wholesale
price of its component parts, the manual labor and machine tools needed
to taper the gold sheets (thin at the base, thick at the point), stamp
out the nib blanks with breather hole and slit, apply the tipping, saw
the tipping to match the slit, shaping, polishing, and everything else
involved all costs the manufacturer money which then is factored into
the price of the nib.

The fact is that nibs today are made very much the same as they were 100
years ago only with more automation and mechanization. For example,
Bock, the German nib maker, purchases gold in pre-tapered rolls from the
foundry so that they don't need to operate rolling mills and they can
concentrate on the more complex parts of nib manufacture.

Glad I dug up those nibs -- i had forgotten I had unmounted nibs -- and
only had to remove one with the nib block (the 100-Year)

--Jon

--
jon fabian
looked good on paper
f a b i a n "at" p a n i x "dot" c o m

On Mon, 4 Dec 2006 18:47:03 -0600, BL wrote
(in article bk3dh.8053$Ga7.2436@trnddc01):

virgiliopoeta wrote:

At historic gold prices of $1500-2000/oz (2006 US
dollars) gold nibs were therefore worth around
$50-70. This is why they were used sparingly for
elite pens only.

Virgilio,
Whatever you do, do NOT respond to specific factual statements such
as:

The prices of replacement nibs for Parker 51s were as follows (from
the 1960 Parker parts list) --
Octanium = 65 cents
Gold = $1.50

Prices from 1941 catalogs:

Esterbrook J w/steel nib (not the more expensive osmiridiu tipped nib)
= 2.00

Parker Parkette Zephyr (w/14k gold nib) = 1.95

Sheaffer Junior Long (striped Radite) with visulated section and 14k
gold nib = 2.75

1937 Conklin (Toledo) All American = 1.95

Parker Parkettes, Sheaffer Juniors, and Conkin All-Americans were not
"elite pens," nor were the many other lower-tier, student, and no-name
pens that sported 14k nibs. Time to throw in the towel, Virgilio. -- B

That "All Write" fountain pen of mine that I have mentioned before, has a
Warranted 14 K nib, which happens to be out of the pen at the moment since I
am working on the feed right now. There is no way that this nib, which is a
pretty decent sized one, weighs in at even half a gram. (I will try to get to
a proper scale tomorrow to weigh it, if the shop has finished putting in the
new heater core.)

The nib is a #8, 11/16" long. The pen looks like a mid 1920's, good quality,
but nothing special.

Gold prices (per Troy ounce) in each years dollars. (Not constant dollars.)

1954 $35.25
1953 $35.50
1952 $38.70
1951 $40.00
1950 $40.25
1949 $40.50
1948 $42.00
1947 $43.00
1946 $38.25
1945 $37.25
1944 $36.25
1943 $36.50
1942 $35.50
1941 $35.50
1940 $34.50
1939 $35.00
1938 $35.00
1937 $35.00
1936 $35.00
1935 $35.00
1934 $35.00
1933 $32.32
1932 $20.67
1931 $20.67
1930 $20.67
1929 $20.67
1928 $20.67
1927 $20.67
1926 $20.67
1925 $20.67
1924 $20.67
1923 $20.67
1922 $20.67
1921 $20.67
1920 $20.67
1919 $20.67
1918 $20.67
1917 $20.67
1916 $20.67
1915 $20.67
1914 $20.67
1913 $20.67

The below are added to give some perspective to the above.

2005 $513.00
2004 $435.60
2003 $417.25
2002 $342.75
2001 $276.50
2000 $272.65

Information from: http://www.onlygold.com/TutorialPage...es200yrsfs.htm

Now one thing I have found to be fairly consistent over the years is that
certain things tend to remain the same with regard to gold, top of the line
S&W and Colt revolvers have been priced at approx. 1 oz. of gold up until the
last decade or so. (I have not been keeping up with current prices on guns
since I got out of the business, or prices on gold for that matter, different
job, different requirements.) Other commodities also were tied to gold and
tended to remain equal with regard to gold for the most part.

1 troy ounce = 31.1034807 grams

1925 $20.67

If this nib weighs 1/2 gram that would put the weight in troy ounces at
approx. 1/62.2 ounces. This equals $.33 (1925 dollars), this would probably
buy you breakfast in most cafes and could include a tip for the waitress.

Multiply by 24.8 to approximate current price of gold. $8.18, even today it
is possible to buy breakfast for this.

Of course all this is only the price of the gold in the nib, actual
manufacturing brings it higher, plus hand-fitting and adjusting of course.

I doubt that it would have taken the price to much more than $1.00 total in
1925 on my "All Write" nib and most other second and third tier pens. First
tier pens might have run a bit higher, maybe a buck .50.
--
Harry F. Leopold
aa #2076
AA/Vet #4
The Prints of Darkness
(remove gene to email)

³We don't just borrow words; on occasion English has pursued other languages
down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new
vocabulary."-James D. Nicoll

On Mon, 4 Dec 2006 19:59:14 -0600, BL wrote
(in article Sn4dh.4370$QC.826@trnddc02):

snip

58 (amount of pure gold in 14k alloy)

Akk! I forgot, I gave prices at 24 K not 14 K. I knew I had screwed up
something but didn't think of that all-important .585 conversion. Let me
think, $0.33 times .585 = $0.19. Nope, it would be a bit hard these days to
buy breakfast for $4.78 1/2. (But you probably still could have had breakfast
in 1925 with change left over from your $0.19 gold value in the nib.)

--
Harry F. Leopold
aa #2076
AA/Vet #4
The Prints of Darkness
(remove gene to email)

"You think atoms like having a half-life?"
Incenjucar