Storing fountain pens with ink in them?

Hope I'm not posting too much but I'm new to the hobby and have
lots of questions. So far I have two fountain pens, one I keep at my
desk at work and one I keep at home for doodling and taking notes while
watching TV. The one at work is relatively new, works perfectly, and I
keep it in a coffee cup tip up with some other pens, pencils, and other
office paraphernalia. The one at home I leave laying on its side and
last night it was writing very wet, should fountain pens be stored with
the tip up between uses?
Thanks,
Scott

scottmandue wrote:

should fountain pens be stored with the tip up
between uses?

There's no right or wrong answer to this one, Scott. I have pens lying
all over the place... A couple are in cups on my desk, but most are
lying on their sides. I can't imagine people worried about such things
back when fountain pens were all one could buy... they just kept their
pens wherever (desk drawer, pocket, wherever). I do find that some of
my pens are more likely to write first thing when they've been lying
on their sides versus nib up. I think you'll find that for many pens
it doesn't matter how you store them but others are a bit more
temperamental. You could either try storing the pen nib up or just
blot it with a tissue before writing if it's too juicy for your
tastes. -- B

scottmandue a écrit :

should fountain pens be stored with
the tip up between uses?

No. The ink dries in the feed and slowly clogs the pen. It is better to
store fountain pens in a horizontal position or with the nib down.

virgiliopoeta a écrit :

scottmandue a écrit :

should fountain pens be stored with
the tip up between uses?

No. The ink dries in the feed and slowly clogs the pen. It is better to
store fountain pens in a horizontal position or with the nib down.

I should perhaps add that certain pens seem to tolerate being stored
with the nib up, notably the old Sheaffer school pens.

virgiliopoeta wrote:

scottmandue wrote:

should fountain pens be stored with the tip up
between uses?

No. The ink dries in the feed and slowly clogs the
pen. It is better to store fountain pens in a
horizontal position or with the nib down.

This really doesn't make sense given that we live on a planet with
gravity. Stored nib up, ink will flow down and out of the feed and
into the reservoir. Stored nib down, ink will flow out of the
reservoir and into the feed (and in some unfortunate circumstances,
out through the feed and into the cap). If you store a filled pen nib
up and leave it unused long enough for ink to evaporate, not much will
be left in the feed to clog it. If, however, you store a filled pen on
its side, or nib down,
lots of ink will remain in the feed to clog it if left long enough for
the water in the ink to evaporate. The reason the OP noticed that the
pen he kept on its side wrote wetter than the one he keeps nib up
illustrates the effects of gravity on ink in a fountain pen. There is
nothing wrong with keeping a pen nib up between uses and most dealers
etc. actually recommend this (see below for just a couple of
examples):

http://www.cajunpen.com/html/fountainpen_hints.html

http://www.bertramsinkwell.com/penstuff.html

Pens are designed to be positioned nib up between uses. After all,
most have pocket clips or ring tops or are designed to be carried in
vest pockets nib up. Of course, the ink in any pen stored in any
position will evaporate eventually. If you have to keep a pen lying on
its side between uses (assuming between uses doesn't mean many days)
lest ink dry in the feed, there's probably something wrong the pen
(ill fitting cap, no or cracked inner cap, etc.). -- B

BL a écrit :

virgiliopoeta wrote:

scottmandue wrote:

should fountain pens be stored with the tip up
between uses?

No. The ink dries in the feed and slowly clogs the
pen. It is better to store fountain pens in a
horizontal position or with the nib down.

This really doesn't make sense given that we live on a planet with
gravity. Stored nib up, ink will flow down and out of the feed and
into the reservoir. Stored nib down, ink will flow out of the
reservoir and into the feed (and in some unfortunate circumstances,
out through the feed and into the cap). If you store a filled pen nib
up and leave it unused long enough for ink to evaporate, not much will
be left in the feed to clog it. If, however, you store a filled pen on
its side, or nib down,
lots of ink will remain in the feed to clog it if left long enough for
the water in the ink to evaporate. The reason the OP noticed that the
pen he kept on its side wrote wetter than the one he keeps nib up
illustrates the effects of gravity on ink in a fountain pen. There is
nothing wrong with keeping a pen nib up between uses and most dealers
etc. actually recommend this (see below for just a couple of
examples):

http://www.cajunpen.com/html/fountainpen_hints.html

http://www.bertramsinkwell.com/penstuff.html

Pens are designed to be positioned nib up between uses. After all,
most have pocket clips or ring tops or are designed to be carried in
vest pockets nib up. Of course, the ink in any pen stored in any
position will evaporate eventually. If you have to keep a pen lying on
its side between uses (assuming between uses doesn't mean many days)
lest ink dry in the feed, there's probably something wrong the pen
(ill fitting cap, no or cracked inner cap, etc.). -- B

All of this sounds quite plausible, but has nothing to do with reality.
No theory however plausible is of any value if it does not explain
actual facts. It is incorrect to assert that modern pens are designed
to be stored nib up. In fact, most pens if stored nib up, will slowly
clog up even if tightly sealed. Certainly the great majority of pens if
left nib up, will not start at once, which is a sure sign of partial
clogging. Enough ink adheres to the feed to slowly clog it as
successive layers of dried ink accumulate. When you turn a pen nib up,
and leave it, not all the ink flows back into the bladder or reservoir.
A small part dries in the feed. This is the simplest explanation which
accounts for the observed facts, and is therefore most probably the
correct one.

If a pen is stored horizontally or with the nib down, on the other
hand, the feed is kept wet, and no ink can dry in the feed, which is
what normally causes clogging. Horizontal storage is somewhat
preferable to storage nib down, however, because ink leakage is less a
danger. In a well-designed feed however, even storage nib down is quite
safe.

There ishowever a tradition that pens should be stored nib up, which
apparently dates back to the days when non-stainless steel was used in
nibs. Stainless steel (most usually 18% chromium and 8% nickel) dates
of course only to the period 1903 to 1912, and was not commonly used in
nibs until after the First World War. Consequently, it was considered
more important to keep ink away from the nib, so as to avoid corrosion,
than to avoid clogging the feed. People simply were accustomed to
frequently soak their feeds for a few hours, which is much less harmful
to non-stainless steel than regular, prolonged exposure to ink/water.
For the same reason, gold was preferred to steel for nibs. Yellow brass
was also tried, and gave good service, but was finally rejected because
of the difficulty in rolling it into nibs. I have often wondered if
some metallurgist might someday obviate this difficulty. Yellow brass
closely mimics gold, and is much harder - similar in hardness to steel,
as I recall.

With modern stainless steel however, there is no logical reason ever to
store a pen with its nib up. If however you find a pen such as the
Sheaffer school pen, which seems to clog only very slowly when stored
nib up, you may wish to adopt this position.

All of this is however a bit of a tempest in a teapot, as it is not
difficult to unclog a feed by soaking overnight. Naturally for this
purpose alone one need not soak the whole pen.

virgiliopoeta wrote:

All of this sounds quite plausible, but has
nothing to do with reality. No theory however
plausible is of any value if it does not explain
actual facts.

Here are the actual facts. The OP has two pens. The one he keeps nib
up in a coffee cup on his desk at work writes perfectly. The one he
keeps lying on its side at home writes very wet. Now, Gregg, don't you
think gravity (albeit a theoretical construct) does a rather good job
of accounting for the difference in how these two pens write?

It is incorrect to assert that modern pens are
designed to be stored nib up.

How many fountain pens have clips mounted on the end of the barrel
thus forcing the user to carry the pen nib down? (none) Where are the
rings on ringtops posted? (top of cap) Now, if fountain pens were
meant to be positioned nib down between uses, don't you think someone
along the line would have mounted clips or rings on the end of the
barrel?

In fact, most pens if stored nib up, will slowly
clog up even if tightly sealed.

As mentioned in a previous post, ink in any pen stored in any position
will evaporate eventually.

Certainly the great majority of pens if left nib
up, will not start at once....

The great majority of pens? You're making this up.

... When you turn a pen nib up, and leave it, not
all the ink flows back into the bladder or
reservoir.

This is true.

A small part dries in the feed.

A properly sealed pen will not dry out between uses provided the pen
is not allowed to sit for long periods of time (days) between uses.

There ishowever a tradition that pens should be
stored nib up, which apparently dates back to the
days when non-stainless steel was used in nibs.
Stainless steel (most usually 18% chromium and 8%
nickel) dates of course only to the period 1903 to
1912, and was not commonly used in nibs until
after the First World War. Consequently, it was
considered more important to keep ink away from
the nib, so as to avoid corrosion, than to avoid
clogging the feed.

Huh? What do you think they were using for fountain pen nibs back
then? I really don't think anyone was particularly concerned about
gold alloy corroding. No, the custom of carrying/storing pens nib up
has everything to do with minimizing the chances of leaking and
nothing to do with preventing corrosion to nibs.

People simply were accustomed to frequently soak
their feeds for a few hours

Hmmmm.... I wonder what a person wrote with back then while his/her
pen was drying out. Any ideas?

With modern stainless steel however, there is no
logical reason ever to store a pen with its nib
up.

Well, I'm not sure what type of nibs are on the OP's pens, but I think
he'll probably store the pen he formerly kept lying down nib up to
prevent the feed from flooding (which is why it was writing so wet...
It's that gravity thing, Gregg). -- B

On Mon, 30 Oct 2006 07:07:45 GMT, BL wrote:

virgiliopoeta wrote:

I've snipped the discussion above 'cause I wouldn't want to interfere in a
private war or appear like a lily-livered peace-maker, heaven forfend.
Carry on with the hacking and slashing, boys; you're clearly having a great
time and I find it immensely entertaining. It livens up the group and may
even dispel some of the myths that seem to have gathered around fountain
pens and their use.

All I wanted to say is this: regardless of how it's stored, a fountain pen
is going to dry out if it isn't used. The time taken for that to happen is
going to vary from pen to pen but it'll happen eventually. It's probably -
I'll be no more definite than that - the case that the "nib up" option is
the best, though virgilpoeta's comment about the drying of ink adhering to
the nib and feed has some merit, particulary when you consider pens with
complex, multi-finned feeds. Whichever pen I'm currently using lies
horizontally in a wooden pen tray. I never have a problem with pens drying
out but that's because I use them a lot.

In essence, drying out is a problem of under-used pens. Enjoy the pleasure
of using them more often or if it does dry out, don't worry about it. All
the modern inks I've used wash out very easily.
--
Sem

BL a écrit :



How many fountain pens have clips mounted on the end of the barrel
thus forcing the user to carry the pen nib down? (none) Where are the
rings on ringtops posted? (top of cap) Now, if fountain pens were
meant to be positioned nib down between uses, don't you think someone
along the line would have mounted clips or rings on the end of the
barrel?

It would be quite difficult to put the clip on the nib end of the
barrel, as this would interfere with writing, although I believe a
certain Italian maker does this very thing, using a rather strange
design. The tradition arose in the very early days of pen fabrication,
when it was indeed advisable to store nibs up, as I have said.


There ishowever a tradition that pens should be
stored nib up, which apparently dates back to the
days when non-stainless steel was used in nibs.
Stainless steel (most usually 18% chromium and 8%
nickel) dates of course only to the period 1903 to
1912, and was not commonly used in nibs until
after the First World War. Consequently, it was
considered more important to keep ink away from
the nib, so as to avoid corrosion, than to avoid
clogging the feed.

Huh? What do you think they were using for fountain pen nibs back
then? I really don't think anyone was particularly concerned about
gold alloy corroding.

Gold alloy was reserved for the very best pens. Gold was VERY dear back
then, you know - at least $1500/oz in current dollas. The world is full
of old, highly corroded nibs made of non-stainless steel.

No, the custom of carrying/storing pens nib up
has everything to do with minimizing the chances of leaking and
nothing to do with preventing corrosion to nibs.

A strange idea. Have you never heard of desk pens, which were designed
to be always stored nib-down? I have really said nothing that is not
common knowledge among the cognoscenti.

People simply were accustomed to frequently soak
their feeds for a few hours

Hmmmm.... I wonder what a person wrote with back then while his/her
pen was drying out. Any ideas?

Pencils were very popular, as were dip pens.

With modern stainless steel however, there is no
logical reason ever to store a pen with its nib
up.

Well, I'm not sure what type of nibs are on the OP's pens, but I think
he'll probably store the pen he formerly kept lying down nib up to
prevent the feed from flooding (which is why it was writing so wet...
It's that gravity thing, Gregg). -- B

Industry-standard feeds do not flood from being stored nib-down, but
from body heat or a poorly adjusted nib.

This constant tit-for-tat is really rather amusing, although I am
afraid that I have little time for such amusements. I find myself
beginning to rather like you....

Hi Virgil,

I've been following this thread and thinking about some of the
points raised. I'm not a cognoscente nor am I part of the
intelligentsia but would like to contribute some thoughts.

virgiliopoeta wrote:

It is incorrect to assert that modern pens are designed
to be stored nib up. In fact, most pens if stored nib up, will slowly
clog up even if tightly sealed. Certainly the great majority of pens if
left nib up, will not start at once, which is a sure sign of partial
clogging. Enough ink adheres to the feed to slowly clog it as
successive layers of dried ink accumulate. When you turn a pen nib up,
and leave it, not all the ink flows back into the bladder or reservoir.
A small part dries in the feed. This is the simplest explanation which
accounts for the observed facts, and is therefore most probably the
correct one.

To my mind, it does not follow that a poor starting pen after being
left nib up is a sure sign of partial clogging. It seems more likely
the cause is the ink flowing back into the fountain, i.e.,
reservoir, which you note as a minor factor.

The idea of accumulating dried ink clogging the feed does not make
sense to me given modern fountain pen inks. (Let me inject here that
I assume we are discussing pens used with some regularity.) Since
the aniline dyes (or vegetable dyes in the case of J. Herbin) and
other additives in modern inks are water soluble, dried ink on the
feed would dissolve into solution once ink was flowing through the
feed. The only case where this wouldn't happen is when the ink is
saturated with dye and additives, which would inhibit the dried ink
from dissolving. Therefore, storing a pen with its nib up will not
result in an accretion of dried ink except in the case of saturated
inks. While there are modern inks with dense solutions of dyes, I
don't know of any that are saturated. Therefore it does not follow
that dried ink is the cause of difficult starting in pens stored nib up.

Further, my experience is that pens with inner caps that seal
tightly against the section can be left for weeks with nib up and
write the moment nib touches paper. Those of my pens without inner
caps can be difficult to start in the morning if left over night
with the nib up.

Personal experience is anecdotal and may not be applicable in the
greater sense, but I think there are pertinent points here. The
inner cap seals the nib and feed from atmospheric pressure, thereby
preventing ink from flowing back into the fountain through formation
of a vacuum. This condition is missing in pens without inner caps,
allowing ink to flow into the fountain as the atmosphere flows into
the cap replacing the retreating ink.

snip


In a well-designed feed however, even storage nib down is quite
safe.


I agree with you here, but it is important to remember there can be
no possibility for exchange of air from the reservoir to the outside
or the nib will leak no matter how good the feed is, and this
includes the Parker 51 with its peerless feed and collector.

BTW, you seem to be in good fettle for someone who has been dead for
over two-thousand years. ;0)

Mark Z.