RUSSIA: Fake or not? (1727 5 kopek, "Krasny Dvor" mint)

According to the misspelling on the reverse, this should be Brekke 29
which is described on page 53 and pictured on page 57 of his book "The
Copper Coinage of Imperial Russia 1700 - 1917":

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=8366997114

But compare the eagle's legs, for example. What do you think?

--
Bob Hairgrove

I have looked at this piece but do not see anything out of the ordinary.
The eagle's
wings do vary from the Brekke illustration but there is considerable
minor variation
on these dies. The 1727 KD issue is not especially difficult to find so
counterfeiters have
probably avoided it; on the other hand the differences might be due to
being a Swedish
contemporary counterfeit.

RWJ

Bob Hairgrove wrote:

According to the misspelling on the reverse, this should be Brekke 29
which is described on page 53 and pictured on page 57 of his book "The
Copper Coinage of Imperial Russia 1700 - 1917":

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=8366997114

But compare the eagle's legs, for example. What do you think?

--
Bob Hairgrove

[top-posting corrected...]

On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 11:07:51 -0500, RW Julian
wrote:

Bob Hairgrove wrote:

According to the misspelling on the reverse, this should be Brekke 29
which is described on page 53 and pictured on page 57 of his book "The
Copper Coinage of Imperial Russia 1700 - 1917":

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=8366997114

But compare the eagle's legs, for example. What do you think?

I have looked at this piece but do not see anything out of the ordinary.
The eagle's wings do vary from the Brekke illustration but there is considerable
minor variation on these dies.

Almost all of the cipher coins' eagle legs depicted both in Brekke and
Uzdenikov are more or less horizontal, yet this one has its legs at a
distinct angle (approx. 45 degrees). As you say, there are also
differences between the wings. If these are "minor die variations",
I'd sure like to see the major ones!

The 1727 KD issue is not especially difficult to find so
counterfeiters have probably avoided it; on the other hand the differences might be due to
being a Swedish contemporary counterfeit.

I know about some of the Swedish counterfeits of Russian 5 kopek
pieces, but I thought these were made only much later when Sweden was
at war with Russia (1788)?

--
Bob Hairgrove

I have looked at the coin again and still do not see any significant
differences from known
specimens. In his corpus volume for coins of Catherine I & Peter II,
Grand Duke Georgii
Mikhailovich plates 47 different piataks (5 kopeck pieces) for 1727
alone; the legs of the
eagles seem to go all over the place.

The originals of this volume, published in 1904, are very rare but in
1973 Quarterman
Publications (Al Hoch) reproduced all of the volumes for 1725-1890 from
the French language
edition of 1916. It does not contain the documents of the orginal
volumes but does have
descriptions of the coins and plates, which are of a high quality in the
1973 reprint. These can
be obtained only on the secondary market, being long out of print, but
seem to bring in the
$175 to $200 range and well worth it. There are more than 600 pages in
this folio-sized book.

The Swedish (and perhaps German and Polish as well) counterfeits of the
1720s are generally
well made and usually mix in with normal pieces from this era in
collections. There is no
reference that I am aware of that shows collectors how to spot a
contemporary fake. Some
of the published documents from the period claim that no spelling errors
were made at the
legitimate mints but this is very doubtful. Not only were the piataks
counterfeited but also the
one kopeck pieces of the late 1720s.

RWJ

Bob Hairgrove wrote:

[top-posting corrected...]

On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 11:07:51 -0500, RW Julian
wrote:



Bob Hairgrove wrote:



According to the misspelling on the reverse, this should be Brekke 29
which is described on page 53 and pictured on page 57 of his book "The
Copper Coinage of Imperial Russia 1700 - 1917":

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=8366997114

But compare the eagle's legs, for example. What do you think?


I have looked at this piece but do not see anything out of the ordinary.
The eagle's wings do vary from the Brekke illustration but there is considerable
minor variation on these dies.



Almost all of the cipher coins' eagle legs depicted both in Brekke and
Uzdenikov are more or less horizontal, yet this one has its legs at a
distinct angle (approx. 45 degrees). As you say, there are also
differences between the wings. If these are "minor die variations",
I'd sure like to see the major ones!



The 1727 KD issue is not especially difficult to find so
counterfeiters have probably avoided it; on the other hand the differences might be due to
being a Swedish contemporary counterfeit.



I know about some of the Swedish counterfeits of Russian 5 kopek
pieces, but I thought these were made only much later when Sweden was
at war with Russia (1788)?

--
Bob Hairgrove

On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 20:56:12 -0500, RW Julian
wrote:

I have looked at the coin again and still do not see any significant
differences from known
specimens. In his corpus volume for coins of Catherine I & Peter II,
Grand Duke Georgii
Mikhailovich plates 47 different piataks (5 kopeck pieces) for 1727
alone; the legs of the
eagles seem to go all over the place.

Thanks for your comprehensive reply, Bob. Once again, I am humbled by
your vast knowledge of these Russian coins! Also, it shows that it is
necessary to have several reference sources (as many as possible,
actually) if one is really serious about collecting.

Is the work by Grand Duke Georgii Mikhailovich still published,
perhaps as a reprint, or will I need to look for a second-hand
edition? Either Russian, French or English would be OK.

--
Bob Hairgrove

This is intended for the R.W. Julian, author of the book Medals of the US
Mint, the first century, 1792-1892. If your not the author, my
apologizes.
I have a mint medal of Grover Cleveland that is listed in your book. On
Page 72 of your book, if I recall correctly. It was one of 8 if I recall
correctly. Sorry if my info is wrong as it has been about 15 years since I
last saw your book. My question to you is where did you obtain the
information on this medal. I have sent a scanned copy of the medal to the
national archives, and the only information they have on the medal is your
book.

John

On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 11:40:30 +0100, Bob Hairgrove
wrote:

According to the misspelling on the reverse, this should be Brekke 29
which is described on page 53 and pictured on page 57 of his book "The
Copper Coinage of Imperial Russia 1700 - 1917":

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=8366997114

But compare the eagle's legs, for example. What do you think?

Here's another one for comparison (also Brekke 29):

http://cgi.ebay.com/1727-RUSSIA-5-KO... cmdZViewItem

I don't know ... there are some details that I think would be very
difficult to counterfeit for the coins from both auctions. For
example, the denticles on the reverse are spaced much more widely on
the right side of the coin (if you are holding it so that the date
runs vertically from bottom to top) than on the left side. This also
corresponds to the pictures as shown in Brekke. However, the eagle
device with scepter and globe, as well as the crowns above the eagles'
heads, are different everywhere -- as are the legs. Letter shapes?
Hard to say when the coins are this circulated...

I saw a reprint of the Grand Duke's volumes for sale on eBay, but 13
or so volumes at $1,000 (plus or minus, including shipping to
Switzerland) is a little more than I am willing to put out at the
moment ... I'd rather spend it on coins!

--
Bob Hairgrove

On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 23:17:54 +0100, Bob Hairgrove
wrote:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=8366997114

But compare the eagle's legs, for example. What do you think?

Here's another one for comparison (also Brekke 29):

http://cgi.ebay.com/1727-RUSSIA-5-KO... cmdZViewItem

And yet another:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=8371253476

--
Bob Hairgrove