If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
bleach and books
As a newcomer to this group, I read with some interest a recent
discussion about the use of bleach (chlorine assumed) to clean the edges of a book. I noted a number of outraged responses, and this is reasonable for rare books, but the individual was working with what he considered an expendable book. I tend to want to preserve artifacts for future generations, so cautions are advised for all in the use of various chemicals. The responses overall ranged from useful, to distressed, to explanatory. Mostly this newsgroup seems quite civil and informative and I am glad it is available. BTW; a comment of my own about bleach/chemicals. There is a parallel in the photographic world for fiber based photo papers, and the long term effects that fixer has on the photo image, because it clings tenaciously to the paper fibers (unless washed for 15-60 minutes in continuously running water) and then can attack the photo emulsion, discoloring both the paper and the image. gr |
Ads |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
gr wrote in message ...
As a newcomer to this group, I read with some interest a recent discussion about the use of bleach (chlorine assumed) to clean the edges of a book. I noted a number of outraged responses, and this is reasonable for rare books, but the individual was working with what he considered an expendable book. While I appreciate your informative response, I wish to correct the mistaken notion that I considered the seventy year old Scribner classic in question "an expendable book." Rather, my point was that it was a defaced book when I obtained it, and my goal was simply to improve the looks of the book. My experiment was successful in doing that. The page edges look great now. Further, what I found significant was the fact that those few who were attacking me and making the dire predictions for the book ignored the fact that once bleach is successfully removed, the oxidation process is halted. As I stated earlier, were that not the case, one could never remove a coffee or tea stain from a white cotten T-shirt though the direct application of bleach, followed by a thorough rinsing with water as soon as the spot disappears. Yet, people use bleach for such mundane stain removal chores all the time. Further, were it not possible to halt the effects of bleach by washing, getting any bleach on one's hands would mean a trip to the hospital and possible amputation! Of course, regarding bleach applied to many substances, the effects of bleach can be halted by rinsing. That includes paper, at least the sort of paper surface you get when page edges are pressed tightly together. I cleaned the page edges very carefully using q-tips and bleach, and then I rinsed the page edges very lightly with a damp piece of terry cloth. After that, I opened the book and set it by a window to let both any remaining bleach evaporate along with the moisture. Right now, the page edges are as white as one might expect of a brand new book. Further, I see no reason at all to expect that the book will deteriorate more rapidly in the future as the result of my experiment, because there just isn't enough bleach residue in the page edges to cause that. So you see, I did not consider the book expendable, except in the sense that often when you experiment, you have to allow for a downside, for things going awry. I guess you could say that I gambled that if I were extremely careful, I could improve the looks of a defaced book. I won the gamble. Of course, I was acting as book owner here, rather than a book investor or book seller. I simply do not wish to have books around my home that defaced with a lot of library discard junk. Anyway, thanks again for sharing your thoughts. Mr. Palmer Room 314 in the upstairs office I tend to want to preserve artifacts for future generations, so cautions are advised for all in the use of various chemicals. The responses overall ranged from useful, to distressed, to explanatory. Mostly this newsgroup seems quite civil and informative and I am glad it is available. BTW; a comment of my own about bleach/chemicals. There is a parallel in the photographic world for fiber based photo papers, and the long term effects that fixer has on the photo image, because it clings tenaciously to the paper fibers (unless washed for 15-60 minutes in continuously running water) and then can attack the photo emulsion, discoloring both the paper and the image. gr |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
gr wrote:
As a newcomer to this group, I read with some interest a recent discussion about the use of bleach (chlorine assumed) to clean the edges of a book. I noted a number of outraged responses, and this is reasonable for rare books, but the individual was working with what he considered an expendable book. I tend to want to preserve artifacts for future generations, so cautions are advised for all in the use of various chemicals. The responses overall ranged from useful, to distressed, to explanatory. Mostly this newsgroup seems quite civil and informative and I am glad it is available. BTW; a comment of my own about bleach/chemicals. There is a parallel in the photographic world for fiber based photo papers, and the long term effects that fixer has on the photo image, because it clings tenaciously to the paper fibers (unless washed for 15-60 minutes in continuously running water) and then can attack the photo emulsion, discoloring both the paper and the image. gr On the photographic side, a number of important qualifications must be stated. First, the fiber based photographic paper has three porous layers, the emulsion, consisting of silver halides (converted by development to elemental silver), the baryta (barium sulfate) layer, and the pulp backing, and I believe that the papers are pH neutral. Second, the bleach used is not a chlorine bleach but - usually - one consisting of potassium ferricyanide and potassium bromide. The bleach is used to remove the silver from the emulsion layer to create a latent matrix for redevelopment and replacement of the silver by a more archival substance, often sodium sulfide or thiourea or potash. I do not know what the effects of potassium ferricyanide bleach (the active ingredient) are on cellulose fiber, but (1) the print is thoroughly and vigorously washed to remove all bleach before being redeveloped [something not available with books], but the effect must be minimal since sepia toned prints have been around for about 150 years; (2) the objective of the photographic bleaching is action upon the emulsion layer, not on the cellulose layer. If you want a really powerful bleach, try a solution of potassium permanganate, which turns the substrate bluish red, and which is washed out with a sodium sulfite solution. A really good resource for achivability of all materials is the Abbey Newletter, the online archives of which is available at: http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byorg/abbey/an/ Francis A. Miniter |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Francis A. Miniter wrote:
gr wrote: As a newcomer to this group, I read with some interest a recent discussion about the use of bleach (chlorine assumed) to clean the edges of a book. I noted a number of outraged responses, and this is reasonable for rare books, but the individual was working with what he considered an expendable book. I tend to want to preserve artifacts for future generations, so cautions are advised for all in the use of various chemicals. The responses overall ranged from useful, to distressed, to explanatory. Mostly this newsgroup seems quite civil and informative and I am glad it is available. BTW; a comment of my own about bleach/chemicals. There is a parallel in the photographic world for fiber based photo papers, and the long term effects that fixer has on the photo image, because it clings tenaciously to the paper fibers (unless washed for 15-60 minutes in continuously running water) and then can attack the photo emulsion, discoloring both the paper and the image. gr On the photographic side, a number of important qualifications must be stated. First, the fiber based photographic paper has three porous layers, the emulsion, consisting of silver halides (converted by development to elemental silver), the baryta (barium sulfate) layer, and the pulp backing, and I believe that the papers are pH neutral. Second, the bleach used is not a chlorine bleach but - usually - one consisting of potassium ferricyanide and potassium bromide. The bleach is used to remove the silver from the emulsion layer to create a latent matrix for redevelopment and replacement of the silver by a more archival substance, often sodium sulfide or thiourea or potash. I do not know what the effects of potassium ferricyanide bleach (the active ingredient) are on cellulose fiber, but (1) the print is thoroughly and vigorously washed to remove all bleach before being redeveloped [something not available with books], but the effect must be minimal since sepia toned prints have been around for about 150 years; (2) the objective of the photographic bleaching is action upon the emulsion layer, not on the cellulose layer. If you want a really powerful bleach, try a solution of potassium permanganate, which turns the substrate bluish red, and which is washed out with a sodium sulfite solution. Make that sodium bisulfite. A really good resource for achivability of all materials is the Abbey Newletter, the online archives of which is available at: http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byorg/abbey/an/ Francis A. Miniter |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
gr wrote:
As a newcomer to this group, I read with some interest a recent discussion about the use of bleach (chlorine assumed) to clean the edges of a book. I noted a number of outraged responses, and this is reasonable for rare books, but the individual was working with what he considered an expendable book. I tend to want to preserve artifacts for future generations, so cautions are advised for all in the use of various chemicals. The responses overall ranged from useful, to distressed, to explanatory. Mostly this newsgroup seems quite civil and informative and I am glad it is available. snip gr A good internet article on the effects of chlorine bleach on paper is to be found at: http://aic.stanford.edu/sg/bpg/annual/v01/bp01-05.html And this article on which chlorine dioxide is preferable to the standard hypochlorite bleach as it does not attack cellulose. http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp160-c5.pdf And finally this from the Abbey Newsletter http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byaut...ow/chap06.html Francis A. Miniter |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
"michael adams" wrote in message ...
"Bill Palmer" wrote in message om... Further, what I found significant was the fact that those few who were attacking me and making the dire predictions for the book ignored the fact that once bleach is successfully removed, the oxidation process is halted. You can't remove the bleach by dabbing it with water with a Q tip Palmer. You'd need to soak the entire page. And then thoroughly rinse away the solution. Not true, because the bleach is only on the page edges. Do you have to take a shower and scrub yourself like you were trying to remove radioactive material every time you get a bit of bleach on your hands? I applied the bleach gently with the q-tips, and then I rinsed, also gently, with a damp piece of terry cloth. That's all it took. You and a few others remind me something I read about tomatoes. A long time ago, at least in some cultures, no one would eat tomatoes, because of a folk belief that they were poison. Of course, since everyone thought tomatoes were poison, no one would eat them, and people continued to believe they were poison. That is sort of what has happened to you and a few other hide-bound types in this group. Early on, someone drilled a rule into you which says, "NEVER use bleach on a book." As a result, you become angry when I confront your narrow view on this. A better rule is, "Bleach should be used on books only in certain unusual circumstances, and then, with extreme care." Mr. Palmer Room 314 Just make a tiny mark with a water soluble dye in an equivalent situation Palmer. And then try removing all traces of that dye by simply dabbing it with water with a Q tip. You can't can you Palmer? All that happens is that the dilute dye spreads. Just as the dilute bleach has spread. Your wetting the page with water, has simply aided the spread of the bleach. michael adams ... |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Making books your own | Bill Palmer | Books | 43 | November 13th 04 05:34 AM |
Cleaning books? (No bleach, please!) | Jim | Books | 11 | November 9th 04 02:37 AM |
Using bleach on your rare books | Bill Palmer | Books | 14 | August 16th 04 04:11 AM |
rec.collecting.books FAQ | Hardy-Boys.net | Books | 0 | May 9th 04 08:39 PM |
[FAQ] rec.collecting.books FAQ | Mike Berro | Books | 0 | December 26th 03 08:18 PM |