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Counterfeit detection primer -- periodic post



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 13th 03, 09:34 PM
Reid Goldsborough
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Counterfeit detection primer -- periodic post

What follows is a distillation of many people's opinions and
observations, including my own. Additions and corrections are
welcomed. This document is copyrighted -- please don't republish
elsewhere. HMTL version available he http://rg.ancients.info/guide.

Counterfeit detection primer -- periodic post

- - -
IN A NUTSHELL: Counterfeit coins are an unavoidable reality in the
numismatic marketplace, particularly with ancient coins though with
modern coins as well. Learning the diagnostics of coin forgeries as
well as the characteristics of authentic coins, buying from reputable
dealers, avoiding sellers you don't know who create "private" actions,
avoiding sellers with a no-return policy claiming they're selling
coins from an estate, and buying smart in general can minimize your
exposure to coin counterfeits. The study of counterfeits, along with
protecting you, can also be interesting in itself.
- - -

Perhaps the most frequent question collectors of ancient coins are
asked by noncollectors is, "How do you know it's real?" The
disconcerting answer sometimes is, "You don't." Not with all coins,
not with certainty.

The fact is, significant numbers of counterfeit ancient coins are sold
as authentic coins. But counterfeiting can be a problem for collectors
of modern coins too. Sometimes coins are altered from a common variety
to a rare one, a form of counterfeiting. The issue of counterfeits
shouldn't deter you from collecting either ancient or modern coins.
The number of ancient coin fakes on the market is dwarfed by the
number of genuine coins, which were produced in staggering numbers in
ancient times. The same is true with modern coins. But counterfeiting
is an issue that any savvy collector needs to face.

Counterfeit coin detection, particularly with ancient coins, is as
much art as science. Because ancients were struck by hand and because
of the wide variability of their designs, even the best experts are
sometimes fooled. Some of the most prestigious dealers in the world
bought large numbers of counterfeit ancient coins as authentic coins
at the 1999 and 1988 New York International Numismatic Conventions,
coins that only later were discovered to be forgeries. Many dealers
contacted buyers and refunded their money, but many of these fakes
remain on the market.

The most frequently seen counterfeit or altered U.S. coins, according
to PCGS's 1997 book Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detection, include:

* 1856 Flying Eagle cent
* 1909-S VDB Lincoln cent
* 1955 double-die Lincoln cent
* 1916-D Mercury dime
* Cincinnati commemorative half dollar
* 1804 Bust dollar (a million dollar rarity)
* 1893-S Morgan dollar
* Saint-Gaudens high-relief double eagle

Other frequently seen counterfeit or altered U.S. coins, according to
collectors and dealers, include the 1914-D and 1922 Lincoln cents,
1943 bronze Lincoln cent, 1913 Liberty Head nickel (a million dollar
rarity), and 1937-D three-legged Buffalo nickel.

Unless you're a specialist, you should think carefully about buying
any of the above coins unless they're in the slab of a legitimate
grading/authentication service, such as PCGS, NGC, ANACS, or ICG.

With ancient coins, even low-cost specimens are counterfeited today.
As Wayne Sayles points out in his 2001 book Classical Deception:
Counterfeits, Forgeries and Reproductions of Ancient Coins, you can no
longer assume that it's impractical for someone to make deceptive
fakes of inexpensive coins, including someone living in relative
poverty in Eastern Europe who may have advanced engraving skills or
even a university degree in metallurgy.

Counterfeits Online

Fakes of modern and ancient coins sold on eBay as authentic coins are
a frequent problem, though if you follow the online coin discussion
groups, these coin forgeries are frequently exposed. One common scam
is for a seller to create an auction of a counterfeit coin, or many
counterfeit coins, while preventing people from contacting bidders,
which is the most common way that this kind of fraud is stopped
(despite the fact that doing this is against official eBay policy).
Never buy from a seller who does this unless you know who the seller
is.

One scam involving ancient coins has been running on eBay for about
two years. The seller puts up for auction every couple of weeks the
same several dozen cast counterfeits using a new eBay I.D. each time.
All are private auctions. The scam artist always changes the
categories of his auctions about a day before they close, meaning
people following coin auctions don't see them until then. This gives
inexperienced buyers enough time to bid on them but doesn't give eBay
enough time to act on complaints from those more experienced who know
about this scam. With each new I.D., the scammer sometimes creates
feedback for himself by buying about a dozen inexpensive non-coin
items, while other times he keeps his own feedback private as well.
eBay typically cancels each new I.D. this scammer creates (though not
always), and each time it sends out warning emails to winning bidders,
but often this is after they have already paid. Many hundreds of
people have been scammed out of tens of thousands of dollars.

You shouldn't count on eBay to prevent or stop the auction of even the
most blatant modern or ancient counterfeits or prevent sellers with a
history of selling large numbers of counterfeits from engaging in
online fraud. eBay has a policy of noninterference, stating that it's
just a venue bringing buyers and sellers together. You're largely on
your own.

Despite the problem of fakes, you shouldn't indiscriminately, and
irresponsibly, condemn coins you see online -- online pictures often
provide only a fraction of the information you need to properly
evaluate a coin's authenticity. But there's nothing wrong with
questioning a coin online. If others feel the coin is not suspicious,
the seller of the coin will undoubtedly wind up with favorable
publicity, and this can lead to more bids and a higher selling price.

The coin industry prefers not to discuss too loudly the issue of
counterfeits for fear of scaring off collectors. But knowledge is
power. As a collector, the more you know, the greater the chance
you'll avoid getting taken. Don't overreact and run away. But don't
put your head in the sand either.

Ownership of Counterfeits

The study of counterfeits can actually be an enjoyable part of the
hobby of collecting coins, ancient as well as modern. Some collectors
enjoy creating a "black cabinet" (also called "black museum") of
counterfeit coins for educational purposes, as help in counterfeit
detection, and as examples of the black art of counterfeiting. In his
American Numismatic Association (ANA) video titled "Famous Fakes and
Fakers," Ken Bressett, editor of the Red Book and past president of
the ANA, points out that some counterfeits can be considered "true
numismatic items" that are "enjoyable to study and collect."

The issue of ownership of counterfeit collectable coins, however, is a
controversial one, more so with U.S. coins, which are still legal
tender regardless of their age, than ancient coins. The American
Numismatic Association recommends that you turn in counterfeit coins
to it or the U.S. Secret Service.

But hundreds if not thousands of auction houses, dealers, and
collectors keep counterfeits of collectible coins on hand, and the ANA
recognizes this. Those who elect to keep counterfeits should clearly
identify them on the labels of their holders to help prevent them from
someday inadvertently being sold as genuine coins, says Robert W.
Hoge, former curator at the American Numismatic Association, current
curator at the American Numismatic Society.

The legalities regarding mere possession of these bogus coins aren't
clear. Two areas of U.S. law deal with counterfeit coins. Title 18,
Part I, Chapter 25 (Counterfeiting and Forgery) of the U.S. Code,
Sections 485, 489, and 492 deal with counterfeits of U.S. and world
coins. The Hobby Protection Act of 1973 (Title 15, Chapter 48,
Sections 2101 through 2106 of the U.S. Code, plus 1988 amendments)
deals with counterfeits of ancient coins.

Nothing in the above statutes says that simple possession of
counterfeits of collectible coins is illegal, and no court in the U.S.
has ever ruled on the legality of this. According to Armen R. Vartian,
the most visible numismatic legal expert in the U.S., "The statutes do
not criminalize the mere possession of counterfeit money."

Vartian, a lawyer, numismatist, Coin World legal columnist, and author
of the book A Legal Guide to Buying and Selling Art and Collectibles,
says it's illegal to own counterfeit coins if your intention is to
defraud others with them (sell them as genuine), and it's illegal to
refuse to surrender them if the government asks you to, which it's
entitled to under the law. That's why Vartian and others recommend
that those who maintain black cabinets of counterfeit coins do so
quietly.

Others feel, however, that mere possession of counterfeits of
collectible coins is illegal. Ultimately, it's all opinion because no
law or court has ever specifically addressed the issue (there's no
"judicial clarity"), though some opinions are considerably more
informed than others.

Perhaps the bottom line is that nobody has ever been arrested or fined
in the U.S. for owning a counterfeit of a collectible coin since the
Secret Service, an agency of the U.S. Treasury, began policing the
money supply in 1865 and undoubtedly from before this time as well.
Although the Secret Service has confiscated high-visibility
collections of counterfeits of U.S. coins, this hasn't happened in
some 30 years. The ownership of counterfeits of collectible coins a
non-issue today in the eyes of the authorities.

Protecting Yourself from Fakes

The most commonly repeated advice to avoid getting cheated by
unwittingly buying a counterfeit as an authentic coin is to buy from a
respected dealer or auction house who offers a lifetime guarantee of
authenticity with return privileges. You can learn who the respected
dealers are by asking around online.

But in the age of the Internet, deals can often be had through eBay
buying from fellow collectors who are upgrading their coins or
otherwise selling them off or buying ancient coins from direct sellers
personally bringing them into the U.S. from Europe. Even here, though,
sellers should offer a lifetime guarantee of authenticity with return
privileges in case the coin later turns out to be fake.

With both modern and ancient coins, you should be especially wary of
sellers who claim to be selling coins from an estate and who don't
offer return privileges. Similarly, avoid sellers who say they can't
guarantee a coin's authenticity (this is against eBay rules but still
happens, with sellers trying to plant the idea in bidders' minds that
they just might get a real bargain).

If you have any suspicions, don't bid. The old maxim applies: "If a
deal looks too good to be true, it probably is." (See my periodic post
"How to avoid getting cheated on eBay" for more tips.)

Counterfeit Detection

The most common reason a coin is condemned by an expert as being a
forgery is, "It doesn't look right." Dealers who've handled many
thousands of authentic coins are usually (not always) able to pick out
fakes, even if they're not always able to verbalize why. Part of this
involves knowing what authentic coins of a particular type typically
look like. Part of this involves knowing what counterfeits typically
look like.

Indications of a cast counterfeit include:

* Soft details
* Soapy surfaces
* Round, mushy boudaries where the devices and legends meet the
coin's field
* Pitting from air bubbles created during the casting process.
However, pitting may not appear if pressure, centrifugal, or vacuum
casting was used. Also, genuine coins often show some pitting, or
porosity, caused by corrosion, though these pits are typically rougher
at their edges, wider at their openings, and less round than pits
caused by casting.
* If a coin has cracks in its surfaces, the cracks will likely have
smooth edges, not sharp, visible particularly under a microscope, even
with centrifugal casting.
* Raised lumps of metal. However, some genuine ancient coins can show
the same if made from rusty dies.
* A seam around the edge where the two sides of the mold joined
together. However, it's often filed off, in which case file or
polishing marks are sometimes visible, particularly under a
microscope. On the other hand, ancient coins made from cast flans may
show evidence of a casting seam.
* A casting sprue, or protuberance at one point on the coin's edge.
This can also be filed off, in which case file or polishing marks are
sometimes visible, particularly under a microscope. As with a casting
seam, ancient coins made from cast flans may show evidence of a
casting sprue.
* The absence of flow lines from striking, visible particularly under
a microscope
* Light weight (or sometimes too heavy)
* The existence of the an identical coin -- not only one made from the
same dies but also one with the same centering, strike, wear patterns,
and surface damage. However, forgers may add surface marks.

Indications of an electrotype counterfeit include:

* Edge seam
* Light weight (or sometimes too heavy)

Indications of a struck counterfeit include:

* Unrealistic styling
* Incorrect letters
* Overly flat and uniform fields, particularly with ancient coins,
caused by the use of a hydraulic press
* Die match of a known forgery
* Light weight (or sometimes too heavy)
* Wrong metal
* With ancient coins, the absence of any crystallization. Some
counterfeits are artificially corroded and aged with acids, while
other times ancient metal is used.
* With ancient coins, the absence of surface deposits, the presence of
artificial, unrealistic deposits, or the absence of signs of deposits
having been cleaned off the coin's surface

Testing

There are also various quantitative tests you can do, or have done, to
help with counterfeit detection. Often, any one test or tests aren't
conclusive, but they can provide important information.

1. Weighing a coin, then comparing it with the common weight range for
that coin.

2. Measuring a coin's diameter, then also comparing it with the common
range for that coin.

3. Specific gravity testing

This is a useful if not infallible test. You need to compare a coin's
weight in two different media, such as air and water, using a
precision scale. However, accuracy can be compromised by tiny air
bubbles adhering to the coin's surface and, with ancient coins,
internal porosity and voids within the coin's interior.

The specific gravity of gold is 19.3, silver is 10.5, copper is 8.8,
bronze is 8.7-7.8 (varies with how much tin, lead, and other metals
it's alloyed with), brass is 8.6-8.4 (varies with how much zinc it's
alloyed with), lead is 11.4, tin is 7.3, zinc (cast) is 6.9, iron
(cast) is 7.2, and aluminum is 2.6.

4. Ring test

Modern silver coins ring when you tap them. Modern non-silver coins
don't, not in the same way. Ancient silver coins don't, not in the
same way. With ancient coins, the reason is crystallization, which
results when the silver alloy leaches copper and other impurities over
time, causing voids between the silver grains. You can sometimes see
under magnification feather-like crystals on the coin's surface,
especially near the edges, though other times the crystallization is
completely internal and invisible.

To perform a ring test, balance the coin on the tip of your finger and
tap it gently with another coin. With modern coins, you can wear a
cotton glove to prevent fingerprints. You need to be careful you don't
drop the coin or tap too hard. Highly crystallized ancient coins can
break easily. If the coin emits a long resonating ring, like a bell,
this indicates that it's a modern silver coin. If it's an ancient
coin, this indicates it hasn't become crystallized, that it's likely a
modern forgery, because crystallization dampens the ring. If the coin
rings for only a second or two, this indicates it may be only slightly
crystallized. If the coin emits a tink and doesn't resonate, this
indicates it may be moderately crystallized. If the coin emits a thud,
this indicates it may be heavily crystallized.

The ring test is far from foolproof, however. Sometimes forgers use
the flans of authentic, though inexpensive, ancient coins to produce
old-metal counterfeits of expensive ancient coins, but this typically
happens only with rare or otherwise pricey specimens. Counterfeits
made of new silver having small, thick flans don't resonate as well as
larger, thinner coins. Counterfeits of new silver may not ring at all
if the flan is cracked, occluded with a gas bubble, or filled with
another substance. Cast or electrotype counterfeits made of new silver
also may not ring. Heavily alloyed silver coins or coins made of
bronze, lead, or other base metals will also not ring like pure or
nearly pure silver coins.

5. Non-destructive x-ray elemental analysis with a scanning electron
microscope

This is another useful if not infallible test that analyzes the
elemental composition of a coin, but only at its surface to a depth of
a few micrometers. The coin is bombarded with electrons, producing
x-rays. Because each element has a unique x-ray signature, it's
possible to detect which elements comprise the coin's surface, down to
a sensitivity of about 0.1 percent (trace elements may not be
detected).

Authentication

Often, a dealer will agree to look at a coin you're questioning,
particularly a dealer you've bought from in the past, and offer his
opinion regarding its authenticity.

All of the established, legitimate grading services that deal with
U.S. coins provide authentication along with grading, including:

PCGS (Professional Coin Grading Service)
http://www.pcgs.com

NGC (Numismatic Guaranty Corporation of America)
http://www.ngccoin.com

ANACS (Amos Certification Service)
http://www.anacs.com

ICG (Independent Coin Grading Co.)
http://www.icgcoin.com

The following services provide ancient coin authentication:

ACCS (Ancient Coin Certification Service)
http://www.davidrsear.com/certification.html

IBSCC (International Bureau for the Suppression of Counterfeit Coins)
http://www.iapn.ch

The British Museum, Department of Coins and Medals
http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/cm/cmhome.html

Education

Learning about counterfeits can be fun, in addition to protecting you.
The following are books about counterfeit U.S. coins:

Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detection
PCGS
Ballantine Publishing Group, 1997

Counterfeit Detection Reference Guide
Bill Fivaz
Stanton Printing, 1997

Detecting Counterfeit and Altered U.S. Coins: A Correspondence Course
J.P. Martin
American Numismatic Association, 1996

Official Guide to Detecting Altered & Counterfeit U.S. Coins &
Currency
Marc Hudgeons
House of Collectibles, 1981

Standard Catalog of Counterfeit and Altered United States Coins
Virgil Hancock and Larry Spanbauer
Sanford J. Durst, 1979

Counterfeit, Mis-struck, and Unofficial U.S. Coins: A Guide for the
Detection of Cast and Struck Counterfeits, Electro-types, and Altered
Coins
Don Taxay
Arco Pub. Co., 1963

The following Web sites provide information and/or photos of fake
ancient coins:

Calgary's Modern Fakes of Ancient Coins
Information and photos of fakes of ancient coins
http://www.calgarycoin.com/reference/fakes/fakes.htm

Barry & Darling Ancient Coins' Counterfeits and Counterfeiters
Information and photos of fakes of ancient coins
http://www.ancient-times.com/newsletters/n13/n13.html

Doug Smith's Fakes
Information and photos of fakes of ancient coins
http://www.ancientcoinmarket.com/ds/fakes/fakes.html

Twelve Caesar's Fakes & Forgeries
Information and photos of fakes of ancient coins
http://www.12caesars.com/Fakes___For...forgeries.html

Dennis Kroh's Ancient Coins & Modern Fakes
Information about fakes of ancient coins
http://members.aol.com/kroh/fakes.html

CGB-CFG Fakes
Photos of fakes of ancient coins
http://www.cgb.fr/monnaies/articles/faux/indexgb.html

Jencek's Modern Forgeries of Ancient Coins
Photos of fakes of ancient coins
http://www.ancient-coins.com/shop/ag....26909*sf3lp4?

Forgeries of Ancient Roman and Greek Coins
Photos of fakes of ancient coins offered for sale as authentic coins
on eBay
http://www.chijanofuji.com/ancientforgeries.html

Fakes Gallery
Photos mostly of Slavey replicas of ancient coins
http://www.ancientcoinart.com/fakes_gallery.html

Slavey Replicas
Photos of Slavey replicas of ancient coins
http://people2.clarityconnect.com/we...ei_repros.html

Slaveys at Ancients.info
More photos of Slavey replicas
http://www.ancients.info/gallery/sho...ry.php/cat/511

Discussing Fakes

The following are two e-mail discussion groups specifically about
counterfeit coins:

CoinForgeryDiscussionList
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CoinForgeryDiscussionList

ACFDL (Ancient Coin Forgeries Discussion List)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACFDL

The Usenet discussion group rec.collecting.coins can be a good
resource for getting opinions about questionable U.S. coins. You can
access it through a newsreader such as Forte Agent, e-mail program
with newsreading capabilities such as Microsoft Outlook Express, or
the Web through Google Groups at http://groups.google.com.

More Information

Counterfeit Coin Bulletin
http://www.money.org/publicationsdept.html
Subscription periodical about recently discovered U.S., world, and
ancient counterfeit coins American Numismatic Association (ANA) and
the International Association of Professional Numismatists (IAPN)

Counterfeit Coin Club
http://www.brindin.com/hyperdict/ccc
Group in Canada that puts out a subscription quarterly newsletter
about counterfeit coins

Here are some Web pages I've put together about counterfeit coins:

Draped Bust Dollar Counterfeits
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/reidgo...ts/page_7.html

Bulgarian School Counterfeits of Apollonia Pontika Drachms
http://www.rg.cointalk.org/bulgarian_school

Parion Hemidrachm and Forgeries
http://rg.ancients.info/parion

Thracian and Thasos Tetradrachm Forgeries
http://rg.ancients.info/thracetets/forgery.html

Three Alexander the Great Fourees
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/reidgold/fourees

Deks: Three Ancient Greek Dekadrachms, Fake and Real
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/reidgold/deks

Ultimately, as long as you're careful, you shouldn't fret over the
possibility of getting fooled by counterfeits. As Sayles points out,
virtually all serious collectors of ancient coins, for instance, will
sooner or later unwittingly add a fake to their collection, and this
is not necessarily a sign of naivete. With U.S. coins, the grading
services have greatly reduced the chances of being cheated with
high-end specimens.


--

Email: (delete "remove this")

Coin Collecting: Consumer Protection Guide:
http://rg.ancients.info/guide
Glomming: Coin Connoisseurship: http://rg.ancients.info/glom
Bogos: Counterfeit Coins: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos
Ads
  #2  
Old December 13th 03, 11:00 PM
Phil DeMayo
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

No copyright claimed, intended or implied:

As a service to those who might actually believe what is
written in the periodically posted "counterfeit detection
primer" regarding the legalities of possessing counterfeit
coins, I offer the following:

US Code Title 49 Subtitle X Chapter 803 Section 80302
specifically defines forged, altered and counterfeit coins
of the United States or any other government of a foreign
country as contraband.

In upholding a lower Court decision regarding the possession
of counterfeits in the case of JSG Boggs v. Robert E. Rubin,
Secretary of the Treasury, et al, the United States Court of
Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit stated the
following regarding contraband:

“Contraband per se comprises objects which are inherently
unlawful to possess, regardless of how they are used.”

The decision of the Court was appealed to the United States
Supreme Court who declined to hear the case.

Additionally, US Code Title 18, Part I - Crimes, Chapter 25
- Counterfeiting and Forgery, Section 492 - Forfeiture of
Counterfeit Parephenalia requires that all counterfeit coins
be surrendered to the government. It further states that if
the government has to ask you to surrender the counterfeits,
and you refuse, you can be fined and/or jailed.

In their decision against Boggs, the Court of Appeals quoted
the text of this statute and upheld the lower Court’s ruling
that this statute did prohibit possession of counterfeits.

The Hobby Protection Act mentioned by the author of the
“counterfeit detection primer” is basically a set of
guidelines under the jurisdiction of the Federal Trade
Commission for the legal manufacture or import of imitation
numismatic and political items.

The Hobby Protection Act specifically states that it does
not replace of supercede existing counterfeiting laws and
contains absolutely no evidence to support the author’s
claim that it is the applicable law pertaining to fakes of
ancient coins.

The author claims the former ANA Curator advises marking the
holder containing the fake coin. This advice runs counter to
the requirements of the organization he worked for at the
time the author interviewed him. The ANA Member Code of
Ethics requires that the marking be done in the metal of the
coin.

Finally, the author fails to mention that this former ANA
Curator and a man the author identified as “the top
counterfeiting guy at Secret Service headquarters” both told
him that possession of counterfeit coins was indeed illegal.
++++++++++
Phil DeMayo - always here for my fellow Stooge
When bidding online always sit on your helmet
Just say NO to counterfeits
  #3  
Old December 14th 03, 12:00 AM
Alan & Erin Williams
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Phil DeMayo wrote:

No copyright claimed, intended or implied:

As a service to those who might actually believe what is
written in the periodically posted "counterfeit detection
primer" regarding the legalities of possessing counterfeit
coins, I offer the following:

US Code Title 49 Subtitle X Chapter 803 Section 80302
specifically defines forged, altered and counterfeit coins
of the United States or any other government of a foreign
country as contraband.

In upholding a lower Court decision regarding the possession
of counterfeits in the case of JSG Boggs v. Robert E. Rubin,
Secretary of the Treasury, et al, the United States Court of
Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit stated the
following regarding contraband:

“Contraband per se comprises objects which are inherently
unlawful to possess, regardless of how they are used.*

The decision of the Court was appealed to the United States
Supreme Court who declined to hear the case.

Additionally, US Code Title 18, Part I - Crimes, Chapter 25
- Counterfeiting and Forgery, Section 492 - Forfeiture of
Counterfeit Parephenalia requires that all counterfeit coins
be surrendered to the government. It further states that if
the government has to ask you to surrender the counterfeits,
and you refuse, you can be fined and/or jailed.

In their decision against Boggs, the Court of Appeals quoted
the text of this statute and upheld the lower Court’s ruling
that this statute did prohibit possession of counterfeits.

The Hobby Protection Act mentioned by the author of the
“counterfeit detection primer* is basically a set of
guidelines under the jurisdiction of the Federal Trade
Commission for the legal manufacture or import of imitation
numismatic and political items.

The Hobby Protection Act specifically states that it does
not replace of supercede existing counterfeiting laws and
contains absolutely no evidence to support the author’s
claim that it is the applicable law pertaining to fakes of
ancient coins.

The author claims the former ANA Curator advises marking the
holder containing the fake coin. This advice runs counter to
the requirements of the organization he worked for at the
time the author interviewed him. The ANA Member Code of
Ethics requires that the marking be done in the metal of the
coin.

Finally, the author fails to mention that this former ANA
Curator and a man the author identified as “the top
counterfeiting guy at Secret Service headquarters* both told
him that possession of counterfeit coins was indeed illegal.


That is solely due to the fact that the author in question is a Grade A Weinie.

Alan
'HTH'
  #4  
Old December 14th 03, 05:37 AM
Reid Goldsborough
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 15:34:36 -0500, Reid Goldsborough
wrote:

What follows is a distillation of many people's opinions and
observations, including my own. Additions and corrections are


This is in response to further nonsense from Phil DeMayo about this
subject, gleaned from Google Groups.

Phil DeMayo isn't a lawyer but plays one on the Internet, doing things
no lawyer would ever do, combining various unrelated statutes and
nonbinding court cases and pronouncing definitively, over and over,
what's legal and what's not when there's anything but judicial clarity
about the subject of ownership of counterfeits of collectible coins.

He has said that Armen Vartian, the most visible numismatic legal
expert in the country, a lawyer who writes a legal column for Coin
World, has recently written a particular column about the legalities
of collecting counterfeit coins, and has written a book about
collectibles and the law, must not have read the counterfeit statutes
because his interpretation differs from Phil's.

Phil has said that you don't need to interpret laws, just read them.
From his reading of the law, sans interpretation and context, he has
warned people repeatedly about the dire legal consequence they face if
they collect counterfeit coins, including jail, fines, and car
confiscated, when none of these consequences have ever taken place.

He is legalistic in the extreme, contending that all laws and all
rules should be followed to the letter, yet hypocritically refusing to
answer the simple question of whether he himself has broken the law by
driving faster than the speed limit, in response only calling others
hypocritical.

He is moralistic in the extreme, impugning the ethics of those who
collect or study or write about counterfeits yet whose ethics online
leave a great deal to be desired, not to mention his maturity,
exemplified by among other things his taking a picture of me from my
Web site, defacing it, then putting it on his Web site.

He doesn't understand the difference between jurisprudence and ethics,
simplemindedly equating the two, and between counterfeits and
replicas, simplemindedly equating the two.

His sole or at least primary source of "research" is Google, and he
appears to believe whatever he finds, particularly if it comes from an
"official" source such as a government Web site.

His purpose in putting out information isn't to disseminate truth but
to support his own entrenched ideas, to promote his agenda. He is
rabidly anti-counterfeit, yet he repeatedly puts out counterfeit
information -- phony and fake -- about this subject.

He has said flat-out that he doesn't make mistakes, and his online
debating style reflects this -- sheer stuck-in-the-mud,
never-budge-an-inch intransigence. When it becomes clear that he's
wrong about a point, he has repeatedly blurted out "Bite me!" rather
than saying, level-headedly, "I hadn't considered that," or "That's
something I didn't know," or "I need to check more into this," or "You
may be right."

--

Email: (delete "remove this")

Coin Collecting: Consumer Protection Guide:
http://rg.ancients.info/guide
Glomming: Coin Connoisseurship: http://rg.ancients.info/glom
Bogos: Counterfeit Coins: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos
  #5  
Old December 14th 03, 06:04 AM
Phil DeMayo
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Reid Goldsborough circumvents his killfile by Googling:

This is in response to further nonsense from Phil DeMayo about
this subject, gleaned from Google Groups.


snip


Reid Goldborough has proven time and time again that he is an imperious
a-hole....and you can Google that as well.



++++++++++
Phil DeMayo - always here for my fellow Stooge
When bidding online always sit on your helmet
Just say NO to counterfeits
  #6  
Old December 14th 03, 08:04 AM
mark
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From: Reid Goldsborough


But hundreds if not thousands of auction houses, dealers, and
collectors keep counterfeits of collectible coins on hand, and the ANA
recognizes this.


The ANA has made no such statement. Reid's presentation above is simply a
reading-between-the-lines on his part.

Those who elect to keep counterfeits should clearly
identify them on the labels of their holders to help prevent them from
someday inadvertently being sold as genuine coins, says Robert W.
Hoge, former curator at the American Numismatic Association, current
curator at the American Numismatic Society.


US law says that the word "COPY" should be on the item:

(b) The word "COPY" shall be marked upon the item legibly,
conspicuously, and nondeceptively,
and in accordance with the further requirements of these regulations.
(1) The word "COPY" shall appear in capital letters, in the
English language.
(2) The word "COPY" shall be marked on either the obverse or the
reverse surface of the item.
It shall not be marked on the edge of the item.
(3) An imitation numismatic item of incusable material shall be
incused with the word "COPY" in
sans-serif letters having a vertical dimension of not less than two
millimeters (2.0 mm) or not less
than one-sixth of the diameter of the reproduction, and a minimum
depth of three-tenths of one
millimeter (0.3 mm) or to one-half (\1/2\) the thickness of the
reproduction, whichever is the lesser.
The minimum total horizontal dimension of the word "COPY" shall be six
millimeters (6.0 mm) or not
less than one-half of the diameter of the reproduction.
(4) An imitation numismatic item composed of nonincusable material
shall be imprinted with the
word "COPY" in sans-serif letters having a vertical dimension of not
less than two millimeters (2.0
mm) or not less than one-sixth of the diameter of the reproduction.
The minimum total horizontal
dimension of the word "COPY" shall be six millimeters (6.0 mm) or not
less than one-half of the
diameter of the reproduction.


Vartian, a lawyer, numismatist, Coin World legal columnist, and author
of the book A Legal Guide to Buying and Selling Art and Collectibles,
says it's illegal to own counterfeit coins if your intention is to
defraud others with them (sell them as genuine), and it's illegal to
refuse to surrender them if the government asks you to, which it's
entitled to under the law.


Vartian wrote a book "Legal Guide to Buying And Selling Art And Collectibles",
which Reid may refer to later on. The word "counterfeit" appears in one
paragraph in the book, on pages 28-29. In part:

"Counterfeiting of items such as coins and stamps is prohibited by federal law,
and it is actually a crime to sell counterfeits of such items."

Note that Vartain says nothing about intent, just plain and simple that you
cannot legally sell them.

That's why Vartian and others recommend
that those who maintain black cabinets of counterfeit coins do so
quietly.


Reid has never attributed these supposed remarks of Vartain to anything in
print, nor named the "others".

Others feel, however, that mere possession of counterfeits of
collectible coins is illegal.


The reason being that if they have to be surrendered without need for a
warrent, court order, or other form of "due process", that the requirement to
surrender them on demand equates to ownership being illegal.

4. Ring test

Modern silver coins ring when you tap them.


This has been stated to be misleading due to impurities in the alloy of even
modern coins. For some reason, Reid still leaves it in his posting.

--
mark
  #7  
Old December 14th 03, 08:32 AM
A.Gent
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What follows is a brew of my opinions and
observations, specifically directed towards R.G.'s cockalorum.


"Reid Goldsborough" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 15:34:36 -0500, Reid Goldsborough
wrote:

What follows is a distillation of many people's opinions and
observations, including my own. Additions and corrections are


This is in response to further nonsense from Phil DeMayo about this
subject, gleaned from Google Groups.



To thine own self be true, Reid.
When you kf someone, at least have the decency to refrain from answering
their posts.


Phil has said that you don't need to interpret laws, just read them.


Which is a pretty good start....


He is legalistic in the extreme, contending that all laws and all
rules should be followed to the letter, ...


There's a problem with that?
I'd rather have a neighbour who was as such, instead of one who (like you,
rg?) views the law as an inconvenient fiction.


He is moralistic in the extreme,


There's a problem with that?


... impugning the ethics of those who
collect or study or write about counterfeits yet whose ethics online
leave a great deal to be desired, not to mention his maturity,
exemplified by among other things his taking a picture of me from my
Web site, defacing it, then putting it on his Web site.


Classic projection again, RG.

You're getting confused again. *YOU* did this. Look:
http://www.netaxs.com/~reidgold/column/IndexFrame.html ("normal" photo)
and
http://www.netaxs.com/~reidgold/column/reid_pinch.html (defaced photo).

Again, s-l-o-w-l-y : YOU did this Reid.
On YOUR (lower case 'w') web site.



He doesn't understand the difference between jurisprudence and ethics,


Don't you consider that jurisprudence is at least *intended* to reflect the
ethics of the society which formulates it?
Are you glorifying those who deliberately corrupt the intent of the law to
serve their own ends?


simplemindedly equating the two, and between counterfeits and
replicas, simplemindedly equating the two.


Can a replica be passed off as genuine, in the fashion of a counterfeit?
If so, then the similarity is not simpleminded.



His sole or at least primary source of "research" is Google, and he
appears to believe whatever he finds,


How do you know this?
Has he said as such?



...particularly if it comes from an
"official" source such as a government Web site.


Uh huh.
Hands up all those who'd trust the info on RG's site(s) in preference to
that from a US government site.

.....

I thought so.


His purpose in putting out information isn't to disseminate truth but
to support his own entrenched ideas, to promote his agenda. He is
rabidly anti-counterfeit, yet he repeatedly puts out counterfeit
information -- phony and fake -- about this subject.


Poor analogy. A counterfeit is a facsimile, a copy of something genuine.
When done well, it is indistinguishable from the original.

Are you accusing Phil of making very good copies (indistiguishable) copies
of the truth?


He has said flat-out that he doesn't make mistakes,


....and this wasn't ironic or sarcastic? You took it literally, I presume?


...and his online
debating style reflects this -- sheer stuck-in-the-mud,
never-budge-an-inch intransigence.


Whereas when *you* are presented with determined, logical and persistent
opposition to your self-aggrandising posts and fatuous, childish arguing
style, what do you do? Killfile the antagonist. Very level-headed and
mature.


... When it becomes clear that he's
wrong about a point, he has repeatedly blurted out "Bite me!"


....and you have *never* blurted out an intemperate comment?


...rather
than saying, level-headedly, "I hadn't considered that," or "That's
something I didn't know," or "I need to check more into this," or "You
may be right."



You don't do that very often either, Reid, despite an enormous number of
opportunities to do so.


=================
The above is posted as a public service to those not yet familiar with RG's
debationg style.

Reid: Kindly don't answer.
I treasure my spot in the killfile.


  #8  
Old December 14th 03, 10:26 AM
Phil DeMayo
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
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"A.Gent" responds to the RG character:

... impugning the ethics of those who
collect or study or write about counterfeits yet whose ethics online
leave a great deal to be desired, not to mention his maturity,
exemplified by among other things his taking a picture of me from
my Web site, defacing it, then putting it on his Web site.


Classic projection again, RG.

You're getting confused again. *YOU* did this. Look:
http://www.netaxs.com/~reidgold/column/IndexFrame.html ("normal" photo)
and
http://www.netaxs.com/~reidgold/column/reid_pinch.html (defaced photo).

Again, s-l-o-w-l-y : YOU did this Reid.
On YOUR (lower case 'w') web site.


What Reid is referring to was my taking his "normal photo" and placing his name
under it, repeating and placing the name "Jay Berman" under it, repeating and
placing the name "Tim Winsdor" under it, repeating and placing the name "Bill
Fordler" under it and repeating and placing the name "George Smith" under it.

This was done to illustrate the point that all of these RCC posters were the
same person. I believe I also had a blank frame at the end of the line with
some humorous reference to his buddy Nick.

I guess he hasn't seen your "ME, ME, ME" rendition ;-) ;-)

His sole or at least primary source of "research" is Google, and he
appears to believe whatever he finds,


How do you know this?
Has he said as such?


Ahhhh.....impugning web research. Why just the other day he claimed he didn't
need to read books on meteorites, that he found ample information on the web.
Mike Marotta quickly "archived" that statement for future reference.

Isn't it a shame that I have been foolish enough to believe actual court
transcripts and the archived text of US Code?

Earlier I was doing a "findlaw.com" search of various libraries for the phrase
"counterfeit coins". When I limited the search to "legal web sites" I couldn't
believe how many times Reid's web pages came up.

I laughed my ass off...."legal" web sites indeed. ;-)


++++++++++
Phil DeMayo - always here for my fellow Stooge
When bidding online always sit on your helmet
Just say NO to counterfeits
  #9  
Old December 14th 03, 10:39 AM
A.Gent
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Phil DeMayo" wrote in message
...

I guess he hasn't seen your "ME, ME, ME" rendition ;-) ;-)


Hehehe
There's more, actually, but I'm waiting for the right moment...



Isn't it a shame that I have been foolish enough to believe actual court
transcripts and the archived text of US Code?

Earlier I was doing a "findlaw.com" search of various libraries for the

phrase
"counterfeit coins". When I limited the search to "legal web sites" I

couldn't
believe how many times Reid's web pages came up.

I laughed my ass off...."legal" web sites indeed. ;-)


What gets my goat the most is the theme running though his post, and his
reply to your post, that *everyone* twists and corrupts the intent of
legislation to suit their own ends - that no-one can be law-abiding for the
sake of it - or that anyone who is law-abiding is a gormless chump.

Now if *I* was King for a day...


  #10  
Old December 14th 03, 10:09 PM
Nick Knight
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Posts: n/a
Default

In , on 12/14/2003
at 06:34 PM, Leo M. Cavanaugh III
said:

Yes, you should be ashamed that you take the word of the U.S. Code ahead of
RG himself.


The REAL shame is that there are idiots (such as yourself) who seem to think
Phil can read and interpret the US Code and "transcripts" in question and it
actually means something. I've fond non-thinkers tend to stick together.
Case in point.

US Code and the Boggs transscripts are linked from my site. See:

http://rcc.servehttp.com/#bogophobe

Try reading this? Then tell me what you think. Key questions might
include: Do the words "possess" or "possession" seem to be present? Does
the Boggs ruling, where he actually LOST the case (and he actually produced
and purchased things with his wares), levy any real penalty on Mr Boggs?
Did they confiscate any cars? Houses? Hang him? Put him in prison at all?
Hmmmmm?

All these, of course, are rhetorical.

Nick
 




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