FYI: ASA-Accugrade files new suit in US District Court

Bob Peterson wrote:
"mark" wrote in message
...

From: Banknote Addict

I can't beleive all the controversy over grading.

[snip]


. I don't buy, sell or collect slabbed
coins so I have no financial stake in it.
Just offering an opinion.


A very uninformed one if you've never dealt with slabbed coins.


I don't know I would say that mark. It was not that long ago that many
collectors considered any slabbed coin to be the devil's handiwork. now for
the most part, it is considered a normal part of coin collecting.



There's nothing normal about it IMHO.

I live in the UK and I have one slabbed coin in my collection, a UK
error coin that I happened to like, so I've not dealt with slabbed coins
very much.

I still know however that slabbing benefits only the slabbing companies,
I would still be of this opinion if I had never bought a single slabbed
coin.

There is endless debate over the ranking of the grading companies and a
lot of cracking out goes on trying to get a higher grade, there is also
discussion as to how the grading "standards" have changed over the
years.
So as I said above, slabbing benefits only the slabbing companies.

A UK dealer is currently attempting to sell slabbed coins here in the
UK, I hope it is a miserable failure and that they loose a lot of money
as this will deter others from trying to do the same.

http://www.certifiedgbcoins.com/

They want £750 for this coin, crown 1898 LXII (on edge) MS64

http://www.certifiedgbcoins.com/Crow...XII%20ms64.htm

They want £500 for this one in MS63

http://www.certifiedgbcoins.com/Crow...XII%20ms63.htm

Can anyone explain the difference in the appearance that makes one worth
£750 and the other £500?

And once that has been explained explain why anyone should buy either
when a coin with an identical catalogue value, crown 1899 LXII, is on
offer from Spink in "a few minor surface marks, very attractively toned
with underlying brilliance, as struck" condition for £375?

Billy


mark wrote:

From: Banknote Addict

I can't beleive all the controversy over grading.

[snip]

. I don't buy, sell or collect slabbed
coins so I have no financial stake in it.
Just offering an opinion.


A very uninformed one if you've never dealt with slabbed coins.

--
mark

From: "Bob Peterson"

I don't know I would say that mark. It was not that long ago that many
collectors considered any slabbed coin to be the devil's handiwork. now for
the most part, it is considered a normal part of coin collecting.

Source? Attribution? Slabs have been a standard part of the hobby for almost
20 years now. Third-party authentication goes back even further to the days
when ANACS was owned by the ANA.
--
mark

On 29 Jan 2005 23:57:19 GMT, mark wrote:

From: "Bob Peterson"

I don't know I would say that mark. It was not that long ago that many
collectors considered any slabbed coin to be the devil's handiwork.
now for
the most part, it is considered a normal part of coin collecting.

Source? Attribution? Slabs have been a standard part of the hobby for
almost
20 years now.

Not according to Stacks :-)

"note.boy" wrote in message
...
I live in the UK and I have one slabbed coin in my collection, a UK
error coin that I happened to like, so I've not dealt with slabbed coins
very much.

I still know however that slabbing benefits only the slabbing companies,
I would still be of this opinion if I had never bought a single slabbed
coin.

Are you saying that tens of thousands of knowledgeable collectors and
dealers have been hoodwinked now for years? You say you don't deal with
slabs, yet you claim to "know" the inside information about who benefits
from slabbing in the US? I suspect many here in the US would differ with
you-- from first hand experience.


There is endless debate over the ranking of the grading companies and a
lot of cracking out goes on trying to get a higher grade, there is also
discussion as to how the grading "standards" have changed over the
years.
So as I said above, slabbing benefits only the slabbing companies.

Among those who collect and deal with third-party-slabbed coins, there is
little debate over ranking of the companies.


A UK dealer is currently attempting to sell slabbed coins here in the
UK, I hope it is a miserable failure and that they loose a lot of money
as this will deter others from trying to do the same.

Why should you care, as long as you will still have a choice between raw and
slabbed coins?


http://www.certifiedgbcoins.com/

They want £750 for this coin, crown 1898 LXII (on edge) MS64


http://www.certifiedgbcoins.com/Crow...XII%20ms64.htm

They want £500 for this one in MS63


http://www.certifiedgbcoins.com/Crow...XII%20ms63.htm

Can anyone explain the difference in the appearance that makes one worth
£750 and the other £500?

And once that has been explained explain why anyone should buy either
when a coin with an identical catalogue value, crown 1899 LXII, is on
offer from Spink in "a few minor surface marks, very attractively toned
with underlying brilliance, as struck" condition for £375?


If someone buys the £750 coin, why not ask him?

Bruce

They have not been a "standard" part of the hobby for all that time. it
took quite a while for many, especially older collectors to accept them.
Many still do not like them. I was not that long ago a disliker of slabs.
I have come to accept them.

BTW Mark, just cause I cannot come up with a URL that supports my opinion
does not make it invalid.

"mark" wrote in message
...
From: "Bob Peterson"

I don't know I would say that mark. It was not that long ago that many
collectors considered any slabbed coin to be the devil's handiwork. now
for
the most part, it is considered a normal part of coin collecting.

Source? Attribution? Slabs have been a standard part of the hobby for
almost
20 years now. Third-party authentication goes back even further to the
days
when ANACS was owned by the ANA.
--
mark

From: "Jorg Lueke"

Not according to Stacks :-)

What's their take on it?

--
mark

Bob Peterson wrote:
They have not been a "standard" part of the hobby for all that time.
it
took quite a while for many, especially older collectors to accept
them.
Many still do not like them. I was not that long ago a disliker of
slabs.
I have come to accept them.

BTW Mark, just cause I cannot come up with a URL that supports my
opinion
does not make it invalid.

"mark" wrote in message
...
From: "Bob Peterson"

I don't know I would say that mark. It was not that long ago that
many
collectors considered any slabbed coin to be the devil's handiwork.
now
for
the most part, it is considered a normal part of coin collecting.

Source? Attribution? Slabs have been a standard part of the hobby
for
almost
20 years now. Third-party authentication goes back even further to
the
days
when ANACS was owned by the ANA.
--
mark

Everyone has their opinion of grading services and how they add or
detract from the hobby. What in my opinion makes them a necessity in
this day and age is the internet and the now hugh marketplace for coin
buying and selling. Go on Ebay and lookup lets say a 1898 indian cent
or whatever. You will see raw coins graded MS66 and above by their
sellers getting only AU bids while MS64 coins graded by PCGS are
getting way above market prices. There is a reason. The PCGS graded
coins are known to be most of the time graded according to standars
established many years ago with the 1-70 scale. NGC probably comes in
second and ANACS third. Of course that is an opinion, but it is
supported by the prices realized for coins currently selling. As much
as the old adage "buy the coin not the holder" is good advice, it is
difficult since most coins sales today are not at the local coin shop
or local auction, but rather by electronic means over the internet or
from coin dealers web sites. You do not get to see the coin up front
and personal. Reputable dealers will give you a return option, but
keep in mind most reputable dealers also sell slabbed coins. It is the
dishonest or shaddy sellers who sell raw coins or those coins slabbed
by the so called third party graders or self slabbers. This is not to
say that everyone who sells raw coins is dishonest only that the venue
for the dishonest seller is raw or third party graders. Over the last
4 years I have built a fairly good Indian Head Cent collection having
bought raw and certified coins. The PCGS, NCG and ANANC coins I bought
I still have. The PCI and ACG coins are no longer in my collection or
if they are they are in ANACS holders 1-4 grades lower. My mistake and
I take full responsiblity for my mistake. I did not do the research I
should have. Heck to add insult to injury I incurred an addtional
couple of thousand dollars in legal fees when we know who decided to
sue to keep myself and others from saying bad things about his grading.
I will leave it at that since I do not want to be sued again. I just
wish the Attorney General for the State of Flordia would get off his
ass and start looking into that operation. The interesting thing I
have discovered is the enormous jump in prices the PCGS coins I have
acquired are now selling for on Ebay. I bought 2 PCGS graded Ira coins
which have increased 50% and we all know that at the time you buy an
Ira coin you are usually paying a very high premium, but well worth it
for the PQ coins he has. Just expressing my opinion and stating some
facts which I know to be true. The agrument will continue and will
never be fully solved until either the government or the ANA get
involved in certifying the graders. When you purchase an Annunity or
Insurance Policy the salesmen have to be certfied by the state or
federal government. Even though most coins are bought for collection
purposes, some of purchased for investment and as such to the investor
they are like stock, bonds or other monetary investments and people who
sell them should have to be licensed or lat least the person who graded
the coin should have to be licensed. Why not the graders since they
are establishing a value for the item which can vary a large amount
depending on the grade assigned and the actual grade according to the
1-70 scale. Subjective yes but there are enough rules in the 1-70
scale which should keep the grade within limits. Not a MS 66 by one
grader and AU55 by another. The ANA needs to help clean up the hobby
and that can only be done with certification, establishing strong
standards and watching out for the coin collecting population.

David

On 30 Jan 2005 03:46:06 GMT, mark wrote:

From: "Jorg Lueke"

Not according to Stacks :-)

What's their take on it?

They rarely sell slabs and they certainly never slab their own coins. As
far as other people doing it I don't think they care if it sells more
coins to more people overall.

Bruce Remick wrote:

"note.boy" wrote in message
...
I live in the UK and I have one slabbed coin in my collection, a UK
error coin that I happened to like, so I've not dealt with slabbed coins
very much.

I still know however that slabbing benefits only the slabbing companies,
I would still be of this opinion if I had never bought a single slabbed
coin.

Are you saying that tens of thousands of knowledgeable collectors and
dealers have been hoodwinked now for years?

Yes, although I would say "less knowledgeable collectors" and not
"knowledgeable collectors". Dealers have not been hoodwinked as they
profit massively from the myth that MSwhatever slabbed coins are often
worth a fortune compared to slightly lower grade examples, the Emperor
has no clothes but no one has said so, yet.

You say you don't deal with
slabs, yet you claim to "know" the inside information about who benefits
from slabbing in the US? I suspect many here in the US would differ with
you-- from first hand experience.

List the benefits for collectors buying slabbed coins versus unslabbed
ones, it shouldn't take long.



There is endless debate over the ranking of the grading companies and a
lot of cracking out goes on trying to get a higher grade, there is also
discussion as to how the grading "standards" have changed over the
years.
So as I said above, slabbing benefits only the slabbing companies.

Among those who collect and deal with third-party-slabbed coins, there is
little debate over ranking of the companies.

The fact that there IS a ranking for the grading companies only proves
that the slabbing of coins IS a joke.




A UK dealer is currently attempting to sell slabbed coins here in the
UK, I hope it is a miserable failure and that they loose a lot of money
as this will deter others from trying to do the same.

Why should you care, as long as you will still have a choice between raw and
slabbed coins?

I don't want the less knowledgeable here in the UK to be suckered in to
paying silly money for slabbed coins as has happened in the USA. The
"investment" word appears on their home page, this should be a big red
flag.



http://www.certifiedgbcoins.com/

They want £750 for this coin, crown 1898 LXII (on edge) MS64


http://www.certifiedgbcoins.com/Crow...XII%20ms64.htm

They want £500 for this one in MS63


http://www.certifiedgbcoins.com/Crow...XII%20ms63.htm

Can anyone explain the difference in the appearance that makes one worth
£750 and the other £500?

And once that has been explained explain why anyone should buy either
when a coin with an identical catalogue value, crown 1899 LXII, is on
offer from Spink in "a few minor surface marks, very attractively toned
with underlying brilliance, as struck" condition for £375?

If someone buys the £750 coin, why not ask him?


I'm asking you, why should they? £375 is a lot to pay for a bit of
plastic, it doubles the cost of the coin for zero benefit.

Pretend that you have £750 to spend on coins and that you fancy a
Victorian crown like the ones I listed, would you blow it on the slabbed
coin at £750 or buy the Spink one at £375 and still have £375 left to
spend on other coins?

I trust Spink's grading more than some slabbing company's as Spink have
been doing it for 339 years and I have not noticed any reduction in
their grading standards over the past 27 or so years. How do I know
this, by comparing the coin pics in old and new editions of their
Numismatic Circular. Billy


Bruce