grading/selling the family collection

"1787" wrote in message
...

"RF" wrote in message
...
On Dec 3, 2:07 am, "1787" wrote:

This is just plain wrong. It's unfortuante that you have had such bad
experiences with dealers to come up with such an absurd conclusion. One
must select a dealer as carefully as one selects a rare coin. When you
find
one or two that are right for you, they will make it possible for you to
assemble a satisfying collection that you simply could not do on your
own.

I find auctions and other collectors the best venues for buying coins.

I find that most people who bash dealers want to pay them $1000 for a
$2000
coin and then sell it back to them for $3000. Wake up, they're in
business
to make money and very few of them make much of it.

And you find that an acceptable business practice?
Granted, it's typical but that doesn't make it acceptable.


You clearly have issues with Ira, and that is your business. I do not
know
Ira, but his offered coins are nearly always exceptional specimens for
the
grade and are not unfairly priced in today's market.

Perhaps, as you say they are not "unfairly priced" but what of the
poor sucker who sold him his coins? Do you think he got anywhere near
market value.
No! Parasite dealers pay a mere pittance then jack the price up
outrageously!
Just look at the ads for modern coins in Coin World.
Dealers routinely offering President dollar rolls for $37.50 - a
whopping 50% markup for coins I can get at the bank! And that doesn't
even include postage!!!
And if they are doing that, you can just imagine what they're doing
with everything else they sell!
Nope, give me a good auction (eBay or otherwise) any day - fair to the
seller and fair to the buyer. No parasitical dealers need be involved.

These are fair and reasoned responses. Certainly I don't think it is
either fair or ethical for one party to gouge another over a transaction.

I have no idea what Ira pays the people he buys these coins from, so I
won't comment on that. However, people do indeed sell him their coins.

Regarding the ads in CW or the NN, you are correct. I should have been
clearer that I was referring to dealers that are expert, educated and deal
primarily with more desirable or rarer coins. There are indeed profiteers
involved in selling "pulp" coins (let's not even mention TV), and while I
hold them in low regard, I feel an individual wanting to collect coins (or
comics, or sports cards or...) should take a few days to get a basic idea
of what they are getting involved in before going on a shopping spree.

I don't know about "pulp" coins, but I do sometimes question the big dealers
who buy supercoins at record prices at major auctions, and then turn around
and hype the same coins at the next big show or in CW/NN papers at 20% over
what they just paid. These dealers must be market makers. Makes one wonder
which price is reflected in price guides-- the auction hammer price or the
high bidder's immediate new list price.

On Dec 3, 7:40 pm, "Bruce Remick" wrote:
"RF" wrote in message

...



On Dec 3, 12:21 pm, "Bruce Remick" wrote:

Major auctions can be great sources for key coins, especially if you want
to
pay another 15-20% for the privilege of winning. Ebay auctions often
yield
good buys, too. But can you be sure you're not buying from a (gasp)
dealer?
Paying the price you want to for a nice coin is fair and satisfying
regardless of who you buy it from. Whether the seller is a neighbor or a
dealer, maybe he made a killing on the sale -- you may never know and
shouldn't care.

When I buy at auction I don't care who consigned the coins and I
factor the buyer's premium into my bid price (likewise with the S&H on
eBay).
My complaint is that the vast majority of coin dealers are highly
unethical when it comes to the price they offer to unsuspecting
sellers. I personally have witnessed "dealers" offer as little as $.01
on the dollar for rare coins.
And before slabbing became so popular, the usual practice of dealers
was to tell you a coin was XF when you were selling it and BU when
they turned around and sold it to someone else.
Coin dealers are vermin that crawl out of sewers, polluting and
endangering the hobby of numismatics.

C'mon. You say you saw a couple shady deals by a couple of shady dealers so
you paint all coin dealers as vermin? You must not get out and around much,
because if you did, I suspect you'd find many more ethical coin dealers who
depend on a good reputation to make a living. The ones to embrace are the
ones who appear interested in people with average coins as well as those
with super collections. You'd also probably find the inevitable shady
dealers in most all other buy-sell businesses.

Sure, most of us as collectors would like to get an official coin dealer ID
card that would allow us in theory to offer some people 50% of book for
their coins and still be able to sleep well at night. And as collectors,
we'd like to be able to sell our coins at near what the books say they're
worth, and not be forced to accept a dealer's discount quote. Well, eBay
has come along to fill that need for the past ten years for amateur buyers
and sellers.

And looking at some major auction results, it looks like many bidders bid
over book without factoring in the extra %. You and I may not do that, but
maybe it's the excitement of a big auction that makes quite a few people
ignore those premiums.

Bruce,

You're wasting your efforts trying to reason with "RF."

He writes:

You clearly have issues with Ira, and that is your business. I do not know
Ira, but his offered coins are nearly always exceptional specimens for the
grade and are not unfairly priced in today's market.

RF's reply:

Perhaps, as you say they are not "unfairly priced" but what of the
poor sucker who sold him his coins? Do you think he got anywhere near
market value.
No! Parasite dealers pay a mere pittance then jack the price up
outrageously!

snipped for brevity


On the rare occasions when I buy coins from collectors (I buy about
98% from other dealers at major shows) I pay about 15-20% under what I
hope to be able to sell them for. Sometimes I win and other times I
lose. This does not factor in the overhead of running a business,
including airfare, hotels, restaurant meals, cabs, rental cars, coin
insurance (not cheap), supplies such as mailing materials, internet
services, eBay listiung fees, eBay final value fees, PayPal fees,
etc. When I buy from individuals at my office, what I buy are often
accumulations, not collections, and I'm fortunate if I earn 8-10% on
those lots after I ship them out. I like to buy from folks i sold
coins to as I know they won't be hard to resell and won't be problem
coins. I rarely get that chance as those coins are often consigned to
major auctions because of their value.

So, as usual, RF has absolutely no idea of which he speaks. He's never
sold anything to me or bought anything to me. Most dealers such as
myself make very small markups on the material we sell, and if it
weren't for the volume and repeat sales from past customers, we'd
likely starve. If I had a table at major shows (I don't) I think I
would starve. I go to these large shows to buy, primarily.

I always enjoy reading your rejoinders as they are well thought out
and logical. None of that works for RF or one or two others on this
forum.

Ira

"Ira" wrote in message
...
On Dec 3, 7:40 pm, "Bruce Remick" wrote:
"RF" wrote in message

...



On Dec 3, 12:21 pm, "Bruce Remick" wrote:

Major auctions can be great sources for key coins, especially if you
want
to
pay another 15-20% for the privilege of winning. Ebay auctions often
yield
good buys, too. But can you be sure you're not buying from a (gasp)
dealer?
Paying the price you want to for a nice coin is fair and satisfying
regardless of who you buy it from. Whether the seller is a neighbor
or a
dealer, maybe he made a killing on the sale -- you may never know and
shouldn't care.

When I buy at auction I don't care who consigned the coins and I
factor the buyer's premium into my bid price (likewise with the S&H on
eBay).
My complaint is that the vast majority of coin dealers are highly
unethical when it comes to the price they offer to unsuspecting
sellers. I personally have witnessed "dealers" offer as little as $.01
on the dollar for rare coins.
And before slabbing became so popular, the usual practice of dealers
was to tell you a coin was XF when you were selling it and BU when
they turned around and sold it to someone else.
Coin dealers are vermin that crawl out of sewers, polluting and
endangering the hobby of numismatics.

C'mon. You say you saw a couple shady deals by a couple of shady dealers
so
you paint all coin dealers as vermin? You must not get out and around
much,
because if you did, I suspect you'd find many more ethical coin dealers
who
depend on a good reputation to make a living. The ones to embrace are
the
ones who appear interested in people with average coins as well as those
with super collections. You'd also probably find the inevitable shady
dealers in most all other buy-sell businesses.

Sure, most of us as collectors would like to get an official coin dealer
ID
card that would allow us in theory to offer some people 50% of book for
their coins and still be able to sleep well at night. And as
collectors,
we'd like to be able to sell our coins at near what the books say they're
worth, and not be forced to accept a dealer's discount quote. Well, eBay
has come along to fill that need for the past ten years for amateur
buyers
and sellers.

And looking at some major auction results, it looks like many bidders bid
over book without factoring in the extra %. You and I may not do that,
but
maybe it's the excitement of a big auction that makes quite a few people
ignore those premiums.

Bruce,

You're wasting your efforts trying to reason with "RF."

He writes:

You clearly have issues with Ira, and that is your business. I do not
know
Ira, but his offered coins are nearly always exceptional specimens for
the
grade and are not unfairly priced in today's market.

RF's reply:

Perhaps, as you say they are not "unfairly priced" but what of the
poor sucker who sold him his coins? Do you think he got anywhere near
market value.
No! Parasite dealers pay a mere pittance then jack the price up
outrageously!

snipped for brevity


On the rare occasions when I buy coins from collectors (I buy about
98% from other dealers at major shows) I pay about 15-20% under what I
hope to be able to sell them for. Sometimes I win and other times I
lose. This does not factor in the overhead of running a business,
including airfare, hotels, restaurant meals, cabs, rental cars, coin
insurance (not cheap), supplies such as mailing materials, internet
services, eBay listiung fees, eBay final value fees, PayPal fees,
etc. When I buy from individuals at my office, what I buy are often
accumulations, not collections, and I'm fortunate if I earn 8-10% on
those lots after I ship them out. I like to buy from folks i sold
coins to as I know they won't be hard to resell and won't be problem
coins. I rarely get that chance as those coins are often consigned to
major auctions because of their value.

So, as usual, RF has absolutely no idea of which he speaks. He's never
sold anything to me or bought anything to me. Most dealers such as
myself make very small markups on the material we sell, and if it
weren't for the volume and repeat sales from past customers, we'd
likely starve. If I had a table at major shows (I don't) I think I
would starve. I go to these large shows to buy, primarily.

I always enjoy reading your rejoinders as they are well thought out
and logical. None of that works for RF or one or two others on this
forum.

Whew, thank goodness you didn't regale us with the cost of gasoline and
value of your time standing in line at the post office, as so many eBayers
do! 8) By the way, can you find a suc- um, I mean, client, who will sell
you an 1804 dime in VG for 2X sheet, and send it my way at a handsome profit
as a reward for your efforts? It's even OK if you factor in the cost of a
nice steak dinner for yourself and the Missus. You know my phone number.
I'll be waitin'.

James

On Dec 3, 8:06 pm, Ira wrote:
On Dec 3, 7:40 pm, "Bruce Remick" wrote:





"RF" wrote in message

...

On Dec 3, 12:21 pm, "Bruce Remick" wrote:

Major auctions can be great sources for key coins, especially if you want
to
pay another 15-20% for the privilege of winning. Ebay auctions often
yield
good buys, too. But can you be sure you're not buying from a (gasp)
dealer?
Paying the price you want to for a nice coin is fair and satisfying
regardless of who you buy it from. Whether the seller is a neighbor or a
dealer, maybe he made a killing on the sale -- you may never know and
shouldn't care.

When I buy at auction I don't care who consigned the coins and I
factor the buyer's premium into my bid price (likewise with the S&H on
eBay).
My complaint is that the vast majority of coin dealers are highly
unethical when it comes to the price they offer to unsuspecting
sellers. I personally have witnessed "dealers" offer as little as $.01
on the dollar for rare coins.
And before slabbing became so popular, the usual practice of dealers
was to tell you a coin was XF when you were selling it and BU when
they turned around and sold it to someone else.
Coin dealers are vermin that crawl out of sewers, polluting and
endangering the hobby of numismatics.

C'mon. You say you saw a couple shady deals by a couple of shady dealers so
you paint all coin dealers as vermin? You must not get out and around much,
because if you did, I suspect you'd find many more ethical coin dealers who
depend on a good reputation to make a living. The ones to embrace are the
ones who appear interested in people with average coins as well as those
with super collections. You'd also probably find the inevitable shady
dealers in most all other buy-sell businesses.

Sure, most of us as collectors would like to get an official coin dealer ID
card that would allow us in theory to offer some people 50% of book for
their coins and still be able to sleep well at night. And as collectors,
we'd like to be able to sell our coins at near what the books say they're
worth, and not be forced to accept a dealer's discount quote. Well, eBay
has come along to fill that need for the past ten years for amateur buyers
and sellers.

And looking at some major auction results, it looks like many bidders bid
over book without factoring in the extra %. You and I may not do that, but
maybe it's the excitement of a big auction that makes quite a few people
ignore those premiums.

Bruce,

You're wasting your efforts trying to reason with "RF."

He writes:
You clearly have issues with Ira, and that is your business. I do not know
Ira, but his offered coins are nearly always exceptional specimens for the
grade and are not unfairly priced in today's market.

RF's reply:

Perhaps, as you say they are not "unfairly priced" but what of the
poor sucker who sold him his coins? Do you think he got anywhere near
market value.
No! Parasite dealers pay a mere pittance then jack the price up
outrageously!

snipped for brevity

On the rare occasions when I buy coins from collectors (I buy about
98% from other dealers at major shows) I pay about 15-20% under what I
hope to be able to sell them for. Sometimes I win and other times I
lose. This does not factor in the overhead of running a business,
including airfare, hotels, restaurant meals, cabs, rental cars, coin
insurance (not cheap), supplies such as mailing materials, internet
services, eBay listiung fees, eBay final value fees, PayPal fees,
etc. When I buy from individuals at my office, what I buy are often
accumulations, not collections, and I'm fortunate if I earn 8-10% on
those lots after I ship them out. I like to buy from folks i sold
coins to as I know they won't be hard to resell and won't be problem
coins. I rarely get that chance as those coins are often consigned to
major auctions because of their value.

So, as usual, RF has absolutely no idea of which he speaks. He's never
sold anything to me or bought anything to me. Most dealers such as
myself make very small markups on the material we sell, and if it
weren't for the volume and repeat sales from past customers, we'd
likely starve. If I had a table at major shows (I don't) I think I
would starve. I go to these large shows to buy, primarily.

I always enjoy reading your rejoinders as they are well thought out
and logical. None of that works for RF or one or two others on this
forum.

Ira- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Of all the self-serving bull**** that appears on the Usenet, your
posts take the cake Ira.
You are a parasite, no more, no less.
The numismatic world would be far better off if you'd take up a
profession more fitting your limited ethics, like selling used cars or
being a politician.

I think this group would be better off if you left and never came back. If
your rants were taken seriously, I suppose Ira could turn them over to his
attorney and pursue a defamation of character suit against you.

I think it's time to add you to my kill file but since you've probably
already added me to yours, you'll never see this post.

Bob

"RF" wrote in message news:f3f82576-f441-42eb-a1d7-

== All ranting snipped ==

On Dec 3, 4:51 pm, "Bruce Remick" wrote:
"justicecow" wrote in message

...



On Dec 3, 9:21 am, "Bruce Remick" wrote:
"RF" wrote in message


I haven't bought any coins on ebay as of yet but at this point in
time, I'm kind of with you. I look at the auctions and I see how
dealers can BS. I LOVE those coins with the strangely beautiful,
totally "oil and potatofied" toning. But in anything - caveat
emptor. You have to do SOME research before you plunk down your hard
earned cash.

You seem to be assuming here that the junk you're looking at on eBay is
being hyped by coin dealers. My guess is that you'll find most of it is
being offered and hyped by fellow "collectors".


yes/no. I honestly don't know who's selling what, but I have seen
auctions with dealer slabbing. In fact, we have a dealer in our town
that grades and slabs his coins. My point was that a buyer has to do
some research before buying. You might want to know who you're buying
from and if that's not feasible, as it is on ebay, you have to do some
research: feedback, books on the coin, web searches. I have no doubt
you're correct about those colorful coins being sold by collectors.
OTOH you can get recipes online from the coin doctor website.

There are some helpful sellers on ebay: one of them that I know of
regularly does articles, no doubt this gives him an edge and even
credibility, but it is a service and as a new collector, I appreciate
it.


I've had different experiences, maybe because I'm not trying to do
trades or purchases, but in asking my usual beginner level questions
and for advice, I have found people are generous. An ebay dealer
today contacted me about three of my auctions which had major typos in
them that would have created havoc for me, had they gone to the end as
they were. We were kind of exhausted last night from hanging lights
in the cold and I just screwed up. He didn't know me from a hole in
the wall, and yet he took a minute and saved the day. BTW, the guy
sells Morgans...I didn't check but he may have some of the same I
have. But yes or no, he was kind enough to give me a heads up.

I post here, I ask dopey questions, I usually get good answers. I get
good advice. I've gotten emails from some just offering me advice and
knowledge, free of charge. I have posted here off and on for a while
and ALWAYS with few exceptions, people - some of whom I assume are
coin professionals - have been helpful to me.

What ever questions you've asked here will have been asked by many others
before and after you, so that hardly makes them "dopey". It's obviously
what people want to know.

well, that is kind of you. After handling this collection for a while
and doing a lot of reading, I feel a little more confident about not
only what I know and don't know, but what to ask and even where we may
be going with them. In the beginning, even considering the collection
itself overwhelming. One look through the red book gave me knots in
my stomach. It's a huge responsibility, taking on someone else's
passion, particularly when so much effort and money and time went into
it. I didn't even know what to ask my father in law. He's not the
type of person you can ask questions of and he's not well.

Ultimately this is - for us anyway - a valuable collection of coins
and when we decided I would create an inventory and start considering
our options, I didn't have even an idea as to how to start. You don't
pack up a couple of crates of coins and go door to door, visiting
dealers listed in the yellow pages. When I found this group I was
offered ideas, suggestions, facts and even arguments about various
aspects of collecting and all of it was very valuable to me. So maybe
the questions weren't so much dopey as elementary.

Cynthia

"justicecow" wrote in message
...
On Dec 3, 4:51 pm, "Bruce Remick" wrote:
"justicecow" wrote in message

...



On Dec 3, 9:21 am, "Bruce Remick" wrote:
"RF" wrote in message


I haven't bought any coins on ebay as of yet but at this point in
time, I'm kind of with you. I look at the auctions and I see how
dealers can BS. I LOVE those coins with the strangely beautiful,
totally "oil and potatofied" toning. But in anything - caveat
emptor. You have to do SOME research before you plunk down your hard
earned cash.

You seem to be assuming here that the junk you're looking at on eBay is
being hyped by coin dealers. My guess is that you'll find most of it is
being offered and hyped by fellow "collectors".


yes/no. I honestly don't know who's selling what, but I have seen
auctions with dealer slabbing. In fact, we have a dealer in our town
that grades and slabs his coins. My point was that a buyer has to do
some research before buying. You might want to know who you're buying
from and if that's not feasible, as it is on ebay, you have to do some
research: feedback, books on the coin, web searches. I have no doubt
you're correct about those colorful coins being sold by collectors.
OTOH you can get recipes online from the coin doctor website.

A "dealer-slabbed" coin is no different than a coin in a 2x2 cardboard
holder with the owner's marking on it. It just looks more "official" in a
plastic sandwich. Beware of the seller who puts coins in these holders just
to sell them. Perhaps one of the hardest things to learn is how to detect
subtle evidence of old cleaning, dipping, or other kinds of "coin
enhancement" techniques. It can be very tempting to overlook questionable
surfaces on an early coin with otherwise needle sharp details. As long as
I can inspect the coin in person or in clear photos, I don't really care
whether I am buying from a dealer of a collector. And you're right.
Research is a key to avoid disappointment leter.


There are some helpful sellers on ebay: one of them that I know of
regularly does articles, no doubt this gives him an edge and even
credibility, but it is a service and as a new collector, I appreciate
it.


I've had different experiences, maybe because I'm not trying to do
trades or purchases, but in asking my usual beginner level questions
and for advice, I have found people are generous. An ebay dealer
today contacted me about three of my auctions which had major typos in
them that would have created havoc for me, had they gone to the end as
they were. We were kind of exhausted last night from hanging lights
in the cold and I just screwed up. He didn't know me from a hole in
the wall, and yet he took a minute and saved the day. BTW, the guy
sells Morgans...I didn't check but he may have some of the same I
have. But yes or no, he was kind enough to give me a heads up.

I post here, I ask dopey questions, I usually get good answers. I get
good advice. I've gotten emails from some just offering me advice and
knowledge, free of charge. I have posted here off and on for a while
and ALWAYS with few exceptions, people - some of whom I assume are
coin professionals - have been helpful to me.

What ever questions you've asked here will have been asked by many others
before and after you, so that hardly makes them "dopey". It's obviously
what people want to know.

well, that is kind of you. After handling this collection for a while
and doing a lot of reading, I feel a little more confident about not
only what I know and don't know, but what to ask and even where we may
be going with them. In the beginning, even considering the collection
itself overwhelming. One look through the red book gave me knots in
my stomach. It's a huge responsibility, taking on someone else's
passion, particularly when so much effort and money and time went into
it. I didn't even know what to ask my father in law. He's not the
type of person you can ask questions of and he's not well.

Ultimately this is - for us anyway - a valuable collection of coins
and when we decided I would create an inventory and start considering
our options, I didn't have even an idea as to how to start. You don't
pack up a couple of crates of coins and go door to door, visiting
dealers listed in the yellow pages. When I found this group I was
offered ideas, suggestions, facts and even arguments about various
aspects of collecting and all of it was very valuable to me. So maybe
the questions weren't so much dopey as elementary.

Cynthia

I've reached the point in my own life where I dwell more often on who will
inherit my collection. I'm lucky in that the obvious choices of heirs are
well enough off (at present) that they won't need to sell everything for the
money it may bring. I have discussed this with selected relatives who seem
to agree that a wholesale dump need not occur-- not that I'd know. I
stressed the potential educational value that the early US and foreign coins
could offer youngsters in the family. And of course there's the value,
which is like money in the bank if an emergency arises. In short, I don't
plan to sell everything before I depart, and I feel comfortable that someone
oin the family will get some of the same enjoyment I did with my collection.

Bruce

On Dec 3, 11:25 pm, "Robert Dibbell"
wrote:
I think this group would be better off if you left and never came back. If
your rants were taken seriously, I suppose Ira could turn them over to his
attorney and pursue a defamation of character suit against you.

I think the world would be better off if you left.

On Dec 3, 8:06 pm, Ira wrote:
On the rare occasions when I buy coins from collectors (I buy about
98% from other dealers at major shows) I pay about 15-20% under what I
hope to be able to sell them for.

And what, exactly, do you do to merit this 15-20%?
Do you add any value, do you perform any work, do you do anything
other than preventing a true collector from buying the coin from the
original seller for less?
Nope, just a parasite. A real bottom feeder.

A "dealer-slabbed" coin is no different than a coin in a 2x2 cardboard
holder with the owner's marking on it. It just looks more "official" in a
plastic sandwich. Beware of the seller who puts coins in these holders just
to sell them.

What!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! An unethical coin dealer????????? Beware lest Ira
lets loose one of his irate rants on you, telling you what absolute
saints all coin dealers are!