8 track to CD-ROM...the plan, the solution?

It's been obvious to me for some time, mainly due to comprehensive
testing, that 8 track is not a viable music format for the educated
ear for a multitude of reasons...deteriorating tape from age and
operation, warped and cheesy plastic cartridges, the ridiculous fixed
pinch roller system that doesn't work, fussy and poorly engineered
players, horrendous speed control...it's just a royal pain in the ass
all around. It's obvious from the record that William Lear devised
this format as a quick cash cow, not an enduring recording format, and
that he didn't invent anything. Rather, he just stole someone else's
idea and modified it to get around patent issues. Thus, my premise
for getting into 8 track in the first place, that of getting old
releases cheaper than I could on NM or E quality LPs, has met with
mixed results. Yes, I've got the music, but no, the format's
unreliable and aural results are spotty at best. So, I've formulated
a solution...dub the 8 tracks onto CD-ROMs via a specially modified
studio RTR.

The Sanyosak is good enough in various parameters, but speed
perturbations are the biggest barrier to a good hearing of the music.
Despite claims of those with no technical acumen, going to an AC motor
deck doesn't ameliorate these problems; it merely adds another one,
speed inaccuracy. Thus, I'm thinking of embarking upon the following
project: Pop open all carts, cut the splice, recalibrate the reel
motors on my Ampex 351 to keep from stretching the tape, install my
3¾/7½ capstan motor into same, install two new staggered "quad"
playback heads into the Ampex's head bridge, dub to the ADCs of a top
quality sound card, make .wav files out of each cut, and burn them to
CD-ROMs.

Through digital conversion, application of software algorithms that
will "dehiss" and reconstruct the missing top end is feasible and
fairly cheap. Most of the newer algorithms out there really do a good
job on noise reduction compared to what was out there even three years
ago. Also available are easy-to-use compander algorithms, which can
undo much of the compression caused by duplicating onto such tiny
track widths. The carts can be reassembled and either sleazeBayed
(not really worth my time at a buck something a shot and with the
legal entanglements) or given away to cart fanciers. At the end, I've
got a ton of "classic rock" and pop at a price still below what it'd
cost for the equivalent LPs in top condition at today's prices, and
far below most CD re-releases. Total cost would be limited to my
labor time and the cost of two new quad .46 mm track width heads,
which are still available. Simply plug the Cannon connectors for the
pole pieces in use at the time, and dub away. I already have the
capstan motor and the head mounting shim kit. The cost savings of
converting my CCR catalog alone, over just buying CD re-releases,
would almost pay for the heads. Multiply this savings over 150 carts,
and you quickly see that this becomes a payoff situation both
economically and aurally...better sounding music at still a cheaper
price.

Possible problems? A couple. With its special capstan motor, an
Ampex 351 can turn out wow and flutter in the neighborhood of about
..01% CBS-weighted from the alignment tape, about the same as 7½ IPS.
Note that this is a CBS-weighted measurement similar to NAB weighting;
unweighted flutter readings would be around .25% of RMS, still better
than anything I could ever get from any 8 track. Since most good
quality 8 tracks were probably duped on modified Ampex 300s, as used
in the Model 3200 duplicating system, I could expect that the recorded
flutter was even lower, due to the 300's indirect capstan drive. So
far, so good. I tried some record/playback flutter tests on .5 mil
tape, and got a worst case of .03% weighted at 7½ IPS, still better
than any 8 track deck except when using the superior TDK cartridges.
What could go wrong? The graphite back coating, for one.

As with most professional machines, the Ampex capstan drives the
backing, not the oxide. Thus, the slippery nature of the graphite
back coating could lead to unpredictable speed behavior. Thus, it'd
be necessary to use a "sticky soft" (grey rubber) pinch roller that
takes its drive from the capstan on either side of the tape and drives
the tape's oxide side to ensure speed control. Very frequent capstan
and pinch roller cleanings would become de riguer, possibly multiple
times during the dubbing of a single tape. The other problem I see is
that the super skinny backing and oxide could easily break on a three
motor deck of this strength, and if back tension is backed off enough
to prevent this, oxide/gap contact could be tenuous. I don't think
so, since most tape breakage of thin backing happens during fast
forward, rewind and braking operations, not during record/playback.
This would simply be a "four pass" operation to dub off these tapes,
one pass for each two tracks.

Assuming proper laser power on the CD-ROM burner, all CD-A players
should play a CD-ROM with ease, whether at home or in the car. Now, a
"CD wallet" takes the place of rattling, suitcase-sized 8 track totes,
which, while quaint, are another real pain in the ass, espeically if
you have a passenger along for the ride. Cover art? Who cares?? I
have yet to se anything worth having off of an 8 track label except
the track listing, and most of those don't even have playing times.
If I were to want the cover art, I can stick a borrowed LP sleeve into
the flatbed scanner and use it on either the CD-ROM's label or in the
jewel case. NOT an issue to me; I'd just have a track listing with
timings, album artist and title, the convesion date and the original
release number...done!

Comments? (...except for Noodles, who's kill filed into
non-existance, of course!)

dB

that sounds like the best solution, but are you sure cd-rom will last a
lifetime without deterioration?
I agree about the ease of cd vs. 8-track, especially in the car, it'd be
just too easy to slam into the back of someone while trying to wrestle a
cart out the player that's just been eaten
the quad dubs floating around that you would play through a DTS decoder
or ones recorded on DVD-A seem to me to be the wave of the future,
especially thrilling since I love surround so much )
The new hi rez dvd formats are going to blow people away when they're
issued standard in new vehicles.

On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 17:15:27 -0500, (lennon fan)
wrote:

that sounds like the best solution, but are you sure cd-rom will last a
lifetime without deterioration? snip

No, they won't! Columbia University, as well as a few other
universities, released a report showing the fragility of the CD format
in archival use. Many CDs burned in the '80s are already losing their
foil just while kept in storage, which makes them irreparable. Even
under conditions that would be considered ideal for magnetic tape or
vinyl, CDs DO deteriorate. AP featured a widely published account of
these findings about two or three months ago, which rocked the
academic and recording industry worlds severely, both of whom had been
squirreling away data and music on these things for a few years
already. Problems with sealing the edges and centers of the disks are
most commonly cited in these failures, as well as excessive exposure
to sunlight (which also kills vinyl) or humidity (which also kills mag
tape.)

CDs, despite what manufacturers say, are also susceptible to rough
handling, much as were vinyl LPs and, moreso, shellac 78s. Odd as it
may seem, vinyl records are proving to be THE most durable storage
medium for music from the late 20th century, while the old silver
matrices from 78 RPM recording sessions hold down what is left of
electrically recorded music of the pre-1948 era. Unfortunately, many
of the acoustically recorded matrices from the late 'teens and early
'20s have been lost forever, as have silver nitrate film negatives
from the same era.

I agree about the ease of cd vs. 8-track, especially in the car, it'd be
just too easy to slam into the back of someone while trying to wrestle a
cart out the player that's just been eaten snip

LOL! Despite all my ministrations of care, this did happen to me last
week. A Columbia TC8's splice, although looking perfectly secure on
inspection, decided to part with its mate by liberating some of the
oxide from the tape, and there was enough adhesive exposed to neatly
adhere itself to the capstan. Result? Well...you already know how
THAT works!

the quad dubs floating around that you would play through a DTS decoder
or ones recorded on DVD-A seem to me to be the wave of the future,
especially thrilling since I love surround so much )
The new hi rez dvd formats are going to blow people away when they're
issued standard in new vehicles. snip

Agreed. Once someone's heard real "surround sound" in these formats,
Q8 becomes an instant quaint anachronism, interesting for its
historical perspective and little else. I do believe that 8 track is
the same. I'm willing to bet serious money that any 8 track I dub to
digital using my plan will sound better than the original format would
sound on any 8 track player...period...even without any remedial
signal processing. What you'd end up with is exactly what the
technician in the duplicating plant heard when he'd run a finished run
on a test RTR deck to check for quality...essentially, a third
generation tape dub of the master, on skinny tracks at slow
speed...not that great, but more listenable than after the tape would
get spliced and stuck into one of those horrid plastic shells!

dB

DoucheBoB wrote in message . ..
It's been obvious to me for some time, mainly due to comprehensive
testing, that 8 track is not a viable music format for the educated
ear for a multitude of reasons...

Then what the hell are you posting on this newsgroup for ?? This is
for 8-track collecting, not 8-track put-downs. My 8-tracks sound
GREAT- what about all the TONS of resolution you are gonna lose on
those digital transfers ?? And CD's SKIP LIKE HELL when they get old.


The Sanyosak is good enough in various parameters, but speed
perturbations are the biggest barrier to a good hearing of the music.
Despite claims of those with no technical acumen, going to an AC motor
deck doesn't ameliorate these problems; it merely adds another one,
speed inaccuracy.

WRONG- the AC motor runs off the power cycles- it's dead nuts on more
often than any DC motor is. And more torque too. Did you ever see a
professional reel to reel with a little DC motor ?? NO- there's a
reason for that.


Thus, I'm thinking of embarking upon the following
project: Pop open all carts, cut the splice, recalibrate the reel
motors on my Ampex 351 to keep from stretching the tape, install my
3¾/7½ capstan motor into same, install two new staggered "quad"
playback heads into the Ampex's head bridge, dub to the ADCs of a top
quality sound card, make .wav files out of each cut, and burn them to
CD-ROMs.

Already been done- there's a quad transfer guy that has a rig setup
like that already, adapted Fostex reel deck with a Q8 head- he takes
the tape out of the cart, puts it on a reel, and transfers it to CD-R,
where the hell have you been ?? It's in the archives here for years
now. Cripes, before I'd do that, may as well just go to r2r already.
Who wants to open every cart up ??


Possible problems? A couple.

Yes, one major problem, you're personality sucks.

Comments? (...except for Noodles, who's kill filed into
non-existance, of course!)

dB the doucheBag

No one believes that killfile nonsense- you follow ALL my auctions,
have email ALL my buyers trying to diss my products, and you got
caught twice already- you then log on to Google groups to read ALL my
posts- you just don't have the balls to debate me man to man in a
thread- cuz I box your ears with the facts, every time. You have yet
to make a post that doesn't mention my name in some off manner.
There's a name for that- it's called an "obsession".

You bought an alignment tape and returned it, and you got a full
refund. Get over it. Otherwise, you sound like a limp wristed
girly-man, stop whining about it already.

This is what should have happened to that 'Lumpy Gravy' Capitol version
4-track tape sold on Ebay a while back. But to this date, only scratchy
acetate-derived CD's are coming down the pipeline...