John Dunning's book-collecting backdrops -- how realistic?

John Dunning's BOOKED TO DIE is a mystery
that everyone who is both a book lover and a mystery
fan should read. If you fall into both categories and
have missed this tale, put it on your list.

This post, however, is neither a review of Dunning's
mystery (the first of his "bookstore mysteries" in a
series) nor a critique. Instead, I thought it might
be fun to compare Dunning's descriptions of the
world of used and rare books with that world as
I (and some of you, perhaps)) find it today.

Of course, Dunning's used book world was
supposed to have been Denver around 1990,
and my own experience (as a habitual used
book store browser) has been in Southern
California. Further, I am comparing what
Dunning describes with what I have observed
recently, so what I say by no means is meant
to suggest that Dunning was unrealistic
regarding the situation he found in Denver
when he wrote his excellent mystery.

Dunning suggests that honest dealers pay
thirty to forty percent of what they hope to
sell a book for. I am not aware of any
book dealers in Southern California who
pay anything close to that. An exception
might occur if someone walks into the shop
with a "pre-sold," book, that is, something
that one or more of the book dealer's reliable
customers has asked the dealer to look
for. In other words, if the dealer knows for
a fact that he can make a phone call and
sell a book for $300 he might pay a sharp
book scout $100 for it, but that is about
the only situation around here where
dealers would pay anything close to that.

If all the dealer was going to do was put
the book on the shelf and/or list it on the
net for $300, the person who brought it
in would be lucky to get $30, or ten-
percent. In that respect then, the
30 to 40 percent that Dunning suggests
more than once that honest dealers pay,
just doesn't hold sway, at least in
Southern California 2004.

In fact, contrary to Dunning, most used book
dealers--despite their claims--in Southern
California generally don't actually like to deal
with people with books to sell when those
people know the value of the books. They
much prefer to deal with people who know
nothing about books but come in with several
boxes of old books and will sell the lot for
perhaps fifty dollars or less. Of course, the
dealer won't even pay that until he glances
though the boxes and spots at least a few
things that he can sell at well over $50 EACH.

Someone coming in with one book
that the dealer can sell for $50 will
be very lucky to be offered $5 for it.
That is just the way things are done
in this neck of the woods.

Of course, the ironic thing here is that
used book stores are obviously not
gold mines in Southern California.
As I mentioned in a recent post, many
of them have gone out of business
in recent years.

That gets at something about the used
book business around here that I just can't
quite understand. There is no shortage
of people bringing books to the dealers,
and many of those people sell very cheap
or even donate their books. Most of the
used book dealers pay peanuts and even
(in signs posted in stores) declare months-
long moratoriums on book buying. Yet,
they still keep going out of business.
Why?

I suspect the net has something to do with
it. Perhaps used book buyers are using
the net more, and not even browsing in
the used book stores. Or, maybe the
customers are getting net-smart: browsing
in the used bookstores and checking prices
on things they like, but buying different
copies of the same book cheaper
on the net.

Also, computer literate people who feel
they might have valuable books to sell can
easily use the net and look up their books in
Abe, ebay, alibris, etc. to see what they are
selling for on the net. In many cases,
after doing that and finding they have
something fairly valuable, they will sell
their books themselves on the net rather
than taking a bag of peanuts from a used
bookstore for them.

Of course, the big chains have their
effect too. They do result in people
buying more books throughout the entire
region, meaning that more people eventually
have more books to sell or otherwise
dispose of.

Well, I sort of got away from Dunning's
bookstore mystery, but I enjoyed that
book throroughly. The author strikes many
of the right chords for book lovers, but
he focuses mainly on the traditional first-
edition collector and that isn't really my
thing.

For instance, it is amost incomprehensible
that someone who does not really care for,
say, Steven King or John Steinback, would
pay hundreds or thousands of dollars
just for a first edition by either writer
to keep the book on a shelf. It is like
there are book lovers and first edition
lovers and they can be two different
species.

I thought it might
be fun to compare Dunning's descriptions of the
world of used and rare books with that world as
I (and some of you, perhaps)) find it today.

Bill,

You cover a lot of territory here, so I'll just make a few comments John
Dunning's books and the "real world."
I do most of my bookscouting in northern Illinois and southern Wisconsin. Over
time I have run into just about every type of bookseller that John describes -
and then some! They range from the "elitist" who scorns anyone not looking to
spend $2,000 on a book (or sell him one for $5.00!!), to the eccentric
specialist who only wants books on mummified donkey tails and sells you $50
books for $2 because he doesn't know about fiction/literature.
As to my selling books to book dealers, I have had pretty good luck using the
Rule of Three: expecting to get 1/3 of what the book seller expects to re-sell
the book for. This works for me because: 1) I want to get rid of the book right
away; 2) I don't accept less than that; if the book seller won't offer me what
I want, I'll keep the book for my own library. If I think that 1/3 is not a
good price, I won't bother with a book seller, and sell the book myself for
whatever the market will pay for it. This is where the internet has really
leveled the playing field for book scouts.

"BookEditions" wrote in message
...
I thought it might
be fun to compare Dunning's descriptions of the
world of used and rare books with that world as
I (and some of you, perhaps)) find it today.

Bill,

You cover a lot of territory here, so I'll just make a few comments
John
Dunning's books and the "real world."
I do most of my bookscouting in northern Illinois and southern Wisconsin.
Over
time I have run into just about every type of bookseller that John
describes -
and then some! They range from the "elitist" who scorns anyone not looking
to
spend $2,000 on a book (or sell him one for $5.00!!), to the eccentric
specialist who only wants books on mummified donkey tails and sells you
$50
books for $2 because he doesn't know about fiction/literature.
As to my selling books to book dealers, I have had pretty good luck using
the
Rule of Three: expecting to get 1/3 of what the book seller expects to
re-sell
the book for. This works for me because: 1) I want to get rid of the book
right
away; 2) I don't accept less than that; if the book seller won't offer me
what
I want, I'll keep the book for my own library. If I think that 1/3 is not
a
good price, I won't bother with a book seller, and sell the book myself
for
whatever the market will pay for it. This is where the internet has really
leveled the playing field for book scouts.

Interesting post, thanks for sharing. You would think that
that a dealer knowing people with books to sell can price
them on the net would keep that dealer honest, but out
here it doesn't always work that way. (Maybe that's why
used book stores have been going out of business in
the area--perhaps the owners aren't facing up to the reality
of the net.

In the case of one dealer I know of, a friend of mine took
in a selection of first editions that, collectively, would be
advertised for about $500 on the net. (My friend knows
his books too, so he did not harbor any unreasonable
expectations.) This dealer I refer to offered him $50.
When my friend questioned the low offering, the dealer
pointed out that many books on the net did not sell at
the asking price, so just because you see several copies
of a book advertised in Abe for $100 to 150, that does
not mean anyone will buy them.

The irony is that the dealer I refer to himself
lists with abe, and his prices are very high.
For instance, he cuts ads out of 40's and 50's
magazines and lists the ads ("sutable for
framing") for $10 to $15 each! He's a price
gouging scrounge! If my friend would have
let him have the books for $50, he very likely
would have immediately have listed them, in
total, for $500 or more. You see, he has
come up with a rationalization about net
listings in order to continue paying the very
low prices he was paying before the
net got here, probably. Quite a few used
book dealers in this area are like that.
Happily, some are not that way at all.

But talk about gougers, the old couple
(now out of business) in Carlsbad Village,
priced a Reader's Digest edition of THE
RED BADGE OF COURAGE at $15.00.
Five dollars is too much to ask for that
edition in like new condition. They were
ready to retire, and I don't think they cared
too much if anyone bought anything or not.

I agree about the elitists. One guy down here
is an elitist, but actually he is one of the more
honest used book dealers around. He is an
elitist because about all he cares about are
classics. He doesn't give a hoot about other
kinds of books, and he prices very low.
People who know books have gotten all
sorts of wonderful things from this dealer
at a very low price. He doesn't like
popular writers like Steven King, so
he has sold all sorts of valuable King
first editions for a song just to get them
out of the store. Anyway, what I respect
about this person is that though he pays
very little, he charges very little too. He
has a large selection. Perhaps that is
because many people, having given up
on getting much money from any used
book dealer in the area, would rather
sell to a person like this who doesn't
charge too much, rather then selling
their books for the same amount or
even slightly more to a price gouger.
This guy doesn't pay much, he doesn't
charge much, and many used book
buyers respect that. His store's always
a mess, but that's almost beside the
point. If you go in there with a couple
of hours to spare, you are sure to find
something you want, most especially
at his very low prices.

"palmer.william" wrote in message
. com...

Of course, Dunning's used book world was
supposed to have been Denver around 1990,
and my own experience (as a habitual used
book store browser) has been in Southern
California.

I've heard that Dunning owned a book store in Denver during the eighties,
maybe earlier.

Dunning suggests that honest dealers pay
thirty to forty percent of what they hope to
sell a book for. I am not aware of any
book dealers in Southern California who
pay anything close to that. An exception
might occur if someone walks into the shop
with a "pre-sold," book, that is, something
that one or more of the book dealer's reliable
customers has asked the dealer to look
for. In other words, if the dealer knows for
a fact that he can make a phone call and
sell a book for $300 he might pay a sharp
book scout $100 for it, but that is about
the only situation around here where
dealers would pay anything close to that.

I think what Dunning was talking about were experienced book scouts who
indeed made a business of taking dealer's books they really wanted and had
customer's for. These scouts generally visited their best buyer's
frequently, as often as weekly if they lived in the vicinity. If the
particular store couldn't use high quality merchandise at the appropriate
price then the scout would take it elsewhere. People who walk in on a once
a year basis are going to get the prices that any off the street person is
going to get and that is generally around 10%.

If all the dealer was going to do was put
the book on the shelf and/or list it on the
net for $300, the person who brought it
in would be lucky to get $30, or ten-
percent. In that respect then, the
30 to 40 percent that Dunning suggests
more than once that honest dealers pay,
just doesn't hold sway, at least in
Southern California 2004.

It was never the norm for off the street people, you had to work to get to
know your buyer, what he was interested in and what he was willing to pay up
for. That was the only way to get a decent deal. But we are talking high
quality merchandise and not the kind of thing typically picked up at thrift
shops. Still I agree with you that the typical amount would be around 10%
give or take. This is the norm for any resell type business, antiques, old
jewelry, etc.

In fact, contrary to Dunning, most used book
dealers--despite their claims--in Southern
California generally don't actually like to deal
with people with books to sell when those
people know the value of the books. They
much prefer to deal with people who know
nothing about books but come in with several
boxes of old books and will sell the lot for
perhaps fifty dollars or less. Of course, the
dealer won't even pay that until he glances
though the boxes and spots at least a few
things that he can sell at well over $50 EACH.

Sure, but if you know books now you might just as well sell them on E-Bay or
somewhere else and get a better deal. Too many people look up a book on the
net and think what they have is worth X (say $200). What will the dealer
pay for it? Well there might be 2-3 dealers in the US willing to pay $100
now for it but how do you find them? Most dealers will only pay some
minimum because they may expect to sell it to another dealer for half its
value. Expensive books can take up to 5 years to sell at the full retail
price, that is the main reason dealer's tend to pay 10-20% for the majority
of their merchandise, it is the only way they can fund their inventory in a
reasonable manner and make a profit.

That gets at something about the used
book business around here that I just can't
quite understand. There is no shortage
of people bringing books to the dealers,
and many of those people sell very cheap
or even donate their books. Most of the
used book dealers pay peanuts and even
(in signs posted in stores) declare months-
long moratoriums on book buying. Yet,
they still keep going out of business.
Why?

Probably high overhead, high taxes, high whatever. California is an
expensive place to do business.

I suspect the net has something to do with
it. Perhaps used book buyers are using
the net more, and not even browsing in
the used book stores. Or, maybe the
customers are getting net-smart: browsing
in the used bookstores and checking prices
on things they like, but buying different
copies of the same book cheaper
on the net.

It's possible.
Randy

I thought it might
be fun to compare Dunning's descriptions of the
world of used and rare books with that

John's first book was based on real booksellers in
the Denver area. Since we had been visiting there
with some frequency, it was fun to put the fictional
to the real. He caught them with a sharp eye. I thought they were very close.
Not sure, the real people enjoyed seeing their warts in print, so to
speak.

Was not so familiar with the second Janeway. Have
already placed an order for the third.

John was (maybe still is) a very hardworking scout.
The Dunnings shop was a lovely place to go.

Best from sunny and warm
San Diego...70's and gorgeous...
reminds me why we moved here.


Parmer Books - Exploration Discovery Voyages
Catalogs Issued on Request
7644 Forrestal Rd - San Diego CA 92120
(619) 287 0693 Fax (619) 287 6135
Internet

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 20:18:51 UTC, "palmer.william"
wrote:

John Dunning's BOOKED TO DIE is a mystery
that everyone who is both a book lover and a mystery
fan should read. If you fall into both categories and
have missed this tale, put it on your list.

Dunning's story focused on the collectible side of it. For the vast
majoity of the stores it is the general stock that pays the bills.

Dunning suggests that honest dealers pay
thirty to forty percent of what they hope to
sell a book for.

I've worked in a store for about 5 years and that is about right.

I am not aware of any
book dealers in Southern California who
pay anything close to that.

The store I work in is in San Diego.

An exception
might occur if someone walks into the shop
with a "pre-sold," book, that is, something
that one or more of the book dealer's reliable
customers has asked the dealer to look
for. In other words, if the dealer knows for
a fact that he can make a phone call and
sell a book for $300 he might pay a sharp
book scout $100 for it, but that is about
the only situation around here where
dealers would pay anything close to that.

We don't generaly conisder such things.

If all the dealer was going to do was put
the book on the shelf and/or list it on the
net for $300, the person who brought it
in would be lucky to get $30, or ten-
percent. In that respect then, the
30 to 40 percent that Dunning suggests
more than once that honest dealers pay,
just doesn't hold sway, at least in
Southern California 2004.

Guaging the market from net listings is more art than science. If you
see a wide range of prices for a title in like condition it is likely
that the high ones are old copies that haven't sold. You also have to
know about which dealers are crazy (Pawprint) and have insanely high
prices. The quantity of listings is important too. If you see
hundreds of copies it is possibly a title that no one wants. You also
have to consider the quality of the descriptions. If it is full of
editorial commentary the guy is trying to fluff it up. If it uses
non-standard terms describing condition or the correct terms
inappropriately, he is an amateur.

Even with the internet it comes down to getting a vibe and going on
your experience.

In fact, contrary to Dunning, most used book
dealers--despite their claims--in Southern
California generally don't actually like to deal
with people with books to sell when those
people know the value of the books.

The problem is people who expect too much for their books. Remember,
a scout deals with a few dealers. A dealer deals with hundreds of
customers a day (If only they all bought).

They
much prefer to deal with people who know
nothing about books but come in with several
boxes of old books and will sell the lot for
perhaps fifty dollars or less. Of course, the
dealer won't even pay that until he glances
though the boxes and spots at least a few
things that he can sell at well over $50 EACH.

If a dealer buys a box he is probably going to have to throw away most
of them. The offer is based only on the ones he thinks he can sell.

Someone coming in with one book
that the dealer can sell for $50 will
be very lucky to be offered $5 for it.
That is just the way things are done
in this neck of the woods.

Of course, the ironic thing here is that
used book stores are obviously not
gold mines in Southern California.
As I mentioned in a recent post, many
of them have gone out of business
in recent years.

By "gold mines" I assume you mean places where you could get
collectible books at under market value. If they were selling them at
under value it isn't a surprise that they are out of buisness.

That gets at something about the used
book business around here that I just can't
quite understand. There is no shortage
of people bringing books to the dealers,
and many of those people sell very cheap
or even donate their books. Most of the
used book dealers pay peanuts and even
(in signs posted in stores) declare months-
long moratoriums on book buying. Yet,
they still keep going out of business.
Why?

When they stop buying it is a sure sign that they are dying. It is
much better to cull the old stuff that didn't sell to make room for
new stock that it is to pass up on stuff.

I suspect the net has something to do with
it. Perhaps used book buyers are using
the net more, and not even browsing in
the used book stores. Or, maybe the
customers are getting net-smart: browsing
in the used bookstores and checking prices
on things they like, but buying different
copies of the same book cheaper
on the net.

That's definately part of it. But you can't inspect a book on the
net.


Also, computer literate people who feel
they might have valuable books to sell can
easily use the net and look up their books in
Abe, ebay, alibris, etc. to see what they are
selling for on the net. In many cases,
after doing that and finding they have
something fairly valuable, they will sell
their books themselves on the net rather
than taking a bag of peanuts from a used
bookstore for them.

The thing is that if you aren't doing it at least semi-professionaly
the time involved makes it a loosing proposition.

--
Mark Heaely
marknews(at)healeyonline(dot)com

"Mark Healey" wrote in message

....
On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 20:18:51 UTC, "palmer.william"
wrote:

Mark I appreciated your informative
comments, and people who missed
them should back track and read your
posting. I cut them (and most of my
remarks out here, because the post
was getting too long and I got inspired
to add a few more comments on the
regional used book business as I
have experienced it as a habitual
browser.

[...]



Of course, the ironic thing here is that
used book stores are obviously not
gold mines in Southern California.
As I mentioned in a recent post, many
of them have gone out of business
in recent years.

By "gold mines" I assume you mean places where you could get
collectible books at under market value.

No, actually I meant it in the sense that
a typical used book browser sees used
book dealers (some, anyway) paying
bottom dollar and selling at top dollar.
So it is easy to for such a customer to
assume the used bookstore is a gold
mine, so to speak. Obviously that isn't
always (or even often the case) or there
would be a lot more used bookstores
in the region.

Take North County, for instance.
Generally a prosperous area, with
many highly-educated people in it.
But if you go north from La Jolla, you
only find two used bookstores by
the time you reach Camp Pendelton.
If you go inland, you find one in
San Marcos, two in Vista
and one several miles East of the
ocean in Oceanside.. (I have not
counted those miserable little places
that do nothing but trade popular
paperbacks.)

Going south instead of north, let's see,
there is basically one in La Jolla (you
know who I mean, probably; the one
with a wonderful stock of classics
and the duantingly high prices)
not counting a couple of other
little La Jolla places specializing
in very expensive books. (I know
they are there, I have peered in the'
window a couple of times ) There is
one used bookstore left in Pacific
Beach, and it isn't much. One in
Ocean Beach, too, sort of run-of-
the mill, as I recall.

Now, considering the population
and the income of that coastal
stretch of communities, I think
you would agree that used
bookstores are pretty scarce.
I did not talk about the ones
inland in San Diego, because
I and another poster have already
covered most of those (on the
current San Diego bookstore
thread).

Also, as I said in an earlier post,
Carlsbad Village used to have several
used bookstores, and they all closed,
except for a pitiful little paperback trader.
Remember, Carlsbad Village is not
exactly poverty row, either, so we know
it is not that people in the Village can't
afford used books. Of course, the
old couple WERE terrible gougers,
and I don't think they will be missed
much, bless their dear old hearts...
They didn't care, the lady would
scream at the customers, etc..
They had an excellent stock, giving
them fair credit. I think what they did
was cherry pick whatever was brought
to them, and just keep the most
interesting books and charge an
arm and a leg for those. (They also
sold antiques in the same store,
so you can imagine...)

"ParmerBook" wrote in message
...

John's first book was based on real booksellers in
the Denver area. Since we had been visiting there
with some frequency, it was fun to put the fictional
to the real. He caught them with a sharp eye. I thought they were very
close.
Not sure, the real people enjoyed seeing their warts in print, so to
speak.

I have a friend who sells (or did sell) books regularly to one of the shops
in Denver that Dunning used. I guess they were a little ticked about it.

Randy

On Fri, 6 Feb 2004 04:36:05 UTC, "palmer.william"
wrote:

Take North County, for instance.
Generally a prosperous area, with
many highly-educated people in it.
But if you go north from La Jolla, you
only find two used bookstores by
the time you reach Camp Pendelton.
If you go inland, you find one in
San Marcos, two in Vista
and one several miles East of the
ocean in Oceanside.. (I have not
counted those miserable little places
that do nothing but trade popular
paperbacks.)

This brings up an argument I have frequently with my boss regarding
who our customers are.

I maintain that it isn't the wealthy north county types
(criterati would call them the "bourgeoisie"). For a number of
generations colleges and universities in the U.S. have been largely
vocational schools, with a smattering of broader subject matter thrown
in. The people from these institutions are not educated, they're
trained.

Their reading rarely goes far off the best seller lists or what ever
Oprah tells them to read. By the time those titles reach the used
market their interest has moved on.

The best customers are broke-ass twenty something bohos. They're
still curious and don't have the money to hit B&N. Instead of looking
for books that will impress the neighbors when displayed, they buy
what
they find interesting.

They don't live in north county. They live in Hillcrest and the
stores there are doing fine.



--
Mark Heaely
marknews(at)healeyonline(dot)com

"Mark Healey" wrote in message

....
On Fri, 6 Feb 2004 04:36:05 UTC, "palmer.william"
wrote:

Take North County, for instance.
Generally a prosperous area, with
many highly-educated people in it.
But if you go north from La Jolla, you
only find two used bookstores by
the time you reach Camp Pendelton.
If you go inland, you find one in
San Marcos, two in Vista
and one several miles East of the
ocean in Oceanside.. (I have not
counted those miserable little places
that do nothing but trade popular
paperbacks.)

This brings up an argument I have frequently with my boss regarding
who our customers are.

I maintain that it isn't the wealthy north county types
(criterati would call them the "bourgeoisie"). For a number of
generations colleges and universities in the U.S. have been largely
vocational schools, with a smattering of broader subject matter thrown
in. The people from these institutions are not educated, they're
trained.

I certainly agree with that. Our culture nowadays is
filled with degreed, often monetarily very successful,
people who would not be seen as educated
at all by traditional standards. That is, they know
little or nothing of literature, history, art, and all
sorts of other things that used to be necessary
for someone to know before being considered
educated. Call me an elitist if you will, but in
my view someone who has never read a work
of literature (except when forced to to pass a
required course), who knows little or nothing of
history, except perhaps a sketchy outline of
the history of his own country, and can't tell a
Velazquez from a Vermeer is an ignoramus.
Sorry. Of course, tell that to a kid who sees
the ignoramus in question living in a mansion
and driving a Ferrari: That's why lack of education
is becoming so pervasive.


Their reading rarely goes far off the best seller lists or what ever
Oprah tells them to read. By the time those titles reach the used
market their interest has moved on.

The best customers are broke-ass twenty something bohos. They're
still curious and don't have the money to hit B&N. Instead of looking
for books that will impress the neighbors when displayed, they buy
what
they find interesting.

Now, that part I don't necessarily agree with, though
I respect the fact that you are likely drawing on factual
observations. There is another important category
of used book store customers, though for one reason
or another they might not be so common in your
particular store. The people I refer to like good
used bookstores far better than big chains because
the chains are limited almost exclusively to books
in print, and--for a customer who knows books--that
makes browsing in the big chains often boring when
compared with browsing in a good used bookstore
when you may suddenly fall in love with a fifty year
old book you never even knew existed before you
walked into the store. When you consider all the
books that have been printed, there will be only
a tiny percentage of them on sale at even the
biggest Barnes and Noble or Borders. With
a good used bookstore, almost any book
printed in English in the 20th century or even
earlier is subject to show up, so for a certain
type of person, the element of surprise makes
the used bookstore so alluring..

They don't live in north county. They live in Hillcrest and the
stores there are doing fine.



--
Mark Heaely
marknews(at)healeyonline(dot)com