How many 'collect' non-functioning pens?

"Tim McNamara" wrote in message
...
"Free Citizen" writes:

A Snorkel Balance would be my dream pen

Then you're in luck. The Snorkel was arguably the last pen in the
Balance family. :-D

What? I didn't know there was a Balance Snorkel. Do you have one?
--
Best regards,
Free Citizen
http://pagesperso.laposte.net/fpnet

Free Citizen wrote:

Ha! This is where you all may be wrong. I do not believe the US has lost its
traditional manufacturing capabilities.


I don't think anyone wanted to argue that the US had lost any capabilities.
However, anyone who sets up to manufacture a new kind of pen (I know it's
been made before, so it isn't technically "new", but you know what I mean)
is going to have to make money doing it. That means keeping costs down, and
it means selling a lot of pens.

If the money's not important, then why don't you just pay for the factory
and tooling yourself? (grin)

David

"Dave" wrote in message
...
Free Citizen wrote:

Ha! This is where you all may be wrong. I do not believe the US has lost
its
traditional manufacturing capabilities.


I don't think anyone wanted to argue that the US had lost any
capabilities.
However, anyone who sets up to manufacture a new kind of pen (I know it's
been made before, so it isn't technically "new", but you know what I mean)
is going to have to make money doing it. That means keeping costs down,
and
it means selling a lot of pens.

If the money's not important, then why don't you just pay for the factory
and tooling yourself? (grin)

David


Hi David,

I think you may have missed my point. Sheaffer does not have to invest in
new tooling. Machine tools are expensive. One CNC machine today will buy you
a nice house. It can outsource from the numerous contract manufacturers that
have mushroom to supply parts to the electronic industry. That is the only
economically viable option if you were to re-introduce a model like the
Snorkel.
--
Best regards,
Free Citizen
http://pagesperso.laposte.net/fpnet

Free Citizen wrote:

I think you may have missed my point. Sheaffer does not have to invest in
new tooling. Machine tools are expensive. One CNC machine today will buy you
a nice house. It can outsource from the numerous contract manufacturers that
have mushroom to supply parts to the electronic industry. That is the only
economically viable option if you were to re-introduce a model like the
Snorkel.


If it truly is economically viable, and can truly be done through
outsourcing, (Including nibs? Including people who know how to grind a nib
properly?) then it sounds as if there's a gold mine waiting for you to tap!
Go for it, and I hope you get rich!


David

Of course that was partly a joke, but if you do pursue it then I honestly do
hope you do well. I'd buy one from you, as long as it was equal to the
quality of the old ones and sold for $100 or less.

One of the things Frank Dubiel complained about (he was of course always
complaining about something, but oh well...) was that all the knowledgeable
craftsmen who used to work at Sheaffer had either retired or died, and that
no one who worked there was capable of replacing them. The know-how is
apparently not lurking in the wings ready to return.

"Dave" wrote in message
...

[snip]


David

Of course that was partly a joke, but if you do pursue it then I honestly
do
hope you do well. I'd buy one from you, as long as it was equal to the
quality of the old ones and sold for $100 or less.

One of the things Frank Dubiel complained about (he was of course always
complaining about something, but oh well...) was that all the
knowledgeable
craftsmen who used to work at Sheaffer had either retired or died, and
that
no one who worked there was capable of replacing them. The know-how is
apparently not lurking in the wings ready to return.


Ah David, yes, some good people are irreplaceable but no one is
indispensable. From an engineering point of view, Sheaffer do not need these
craftsmen to revive the pen. Some genius designed that pen and the work is
done. Lets assume that the engineering plans for the design is lost. There
are still a lot of Snorkels lying around in good condition. All these can be
Reverse Engineered. It only takes a Mechanical Engineer to figure it out.
How it works and how to manufacture it. And even how it could be improved.
Maybe we could even see a Piston Snorkel. I am well versed in Pro-Engineer
software and I now use Unigraphics Solid Edge 3-D modelling software at
work. Give me a Snork and I will Reverse Engineer it for you. Once I have
the digital model done, I can generate manufacturing schematics for every
single part. I am not joking, it can be done. Why Sheaffer has not done so
is beyond me. They have brought back the Balance and the PFM in the form of
Legacy 2 but not the Snorkel. Maybe they were waiting for the right time.
When the market will once again be receptive to such a product. But it is
too late. BIC is shutting down Sheaffer USA altogether.
--
Best regards,
Free Citizen
http://pagesperso.laposte.net/fpnet

"Free Citizen" writes:

"Tim McNamara" wrote in message
...
"Free Citizen" writes:

A Snorkel Balance would be my dream pen

Then you're in luck. The Snorkel was arguably the last pen in the
Balance family. :-D

What? I didn't know there was a Balance Snorkel. Do you have one?

It's an issue of form factor. Set any TM Snorkel next to a Balance,
and the family relationship is obvious. Balance with open nib -
Balance with Triumph nib - Touchdown with either nib - Snorkel with
either nib. The introduction of the PFM was the step away from the
Balance form factor.

"Free Citizen" writes:

Ah David, yes, some good people are irreplaceable but no one is
indispensable. From an engineering point of view, Sheaffer do not
need these craftsmen to revive the pen. Some genius designed that
pen and the work is done. Lets assume that the engineering plans for
the design is lost. There are still a lot of Snorkels lying around
in good condition. All these can be Reverse Engineered. It only
takes a Mechanical Engineer to figure it out. How it works and how
to manufacture it. And even how it could be improved. Maybe we
could even see a Piston Snorkel. I am well versed in Pro-Engineer
software and I now use Unigraphics Solid Edge 3-D modelling software
at work. Give me a Snork and I will Reverse Engineer it for
you. Once I have the digital model done, I can generate
manufacturing schematics for every single part. I am not joking, it
can be done.

It can be done, but would it be profitable? My othe rhobby is
bicycling, which has been endowed with dozens of CNC makers of parts.
Most of those have fallen by the wayside because production is much
slower than the more traditional cold forging method, and part
failures were much higher with CNC'd parts because of metallurgical
issues (grain structure in cold forged versus machined components).

Why Sheaffer has not done so is beyond me. They have brought back
the Balance and the PFM in the form of Legacy 2 but not the
Snorkel. Maybe they were waiting for the right time. When the
market will once again be receptive to such a product. But it is too
late. BIC is shutting down Sheaffer USA altogether.

The cost of producing a Snorkel would be much higher than the cost of
producing the replica Balances. When Parker created the reissue 51s,
they were superficially similar but vastly different from a design
perspective, because it was not cost-effective to reproduce the
original 51. The Snorkel would be worse yet in this regard. Indeed,
if it was profitable then some independent person with access to a
milling machine would be doing it already.

On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 11:59:16 +0800, "Free Citizen"
wrote:
Ha! This is where you all may be wrong. I do not believe the US has lost its
traditional manufacturing capabilities. If it did, it will no longer be
manufacturing automobiles in America. Machine tool technology has come a
long way since the Snorkel was first introduced into the market. With
today's CNC machines, the cost of machining per part have dropped many fold
due to high efficiency. Yes, some retooling cost may be required if Sheaffer
were to re-introduce this model. But then, BIC is shutting down the Fort
Madison operation. Yet it could still be done. Parts can be outsourced from
contract manufacturers. That is how it is done in the Electronic industry.
You only have to assemble them yourself. Meaning, whatever is left of
Sheaffer USA, will just be a 'screw driver' workshop. Or a more attractive
proposition is to have this manual work done in China. Super cheap. Heck,
Sheaffer can even outsource in China itself although QC will be moot.

I'm not sure the CNC slant is relevant. CNC is fine for limited
numbers of expensive parts, but my impression is it's not the
preferred way to manufacture large numbers of inexpensive parts. And
the latter is how the electronics industry you reference makes money.

Besides which, you have to remember what the competition is. If
you're trying to sell a workhorse pen, the real competition in the
marketplace is 12 ballpoints for $1, or a dozen rollerballs for $3.
Before I rediscovered fountain pens, I was using a Parker Jotter
ballpoint, and catching flak for using a $4-5 pen. How much do you
want this new snorkel to cost?? I suspect you'd have a hard time
selling a million pens at $20 each -- and if you did, have you thought
the finances through to how you'd set up a factory and produce those
pens (factory, equipment, parts, and labor) for $20M?

I guess my bottom line is, bringing back the snorkel is probably
technically and technologically feasible, but I doubt it's financially
feasible.

Pity.

Pat

Email address works as is.

On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 11:59:16 +0800, "Free Citizen"
wrote:

Ha! This is where you all may be wrong. I do not believe the US has lost its
traditional manufacturing capabilities.

Hardly my argument. The issue is whether or not it can be best made in
the U.S. I don't think that is the case nor do I think it is likely.

I do disagree as to the potential market. I think it is small and no
matter how you set up manufacturing, the snorkel is going to be more
expensive to make than its competitors. Not enough people will see the
benefits IMO and many of the current adherents may have trouble
purchasing a new one if it is more than the available working older
pens.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

I guess my bottom line is, bringing back the snorkel is probably
technically and technologically feasible, but I doubt it's financially
feasible.

Vintage Snorkels in working condition are not in short supply. How many buyers
are there for a "New Snorkel" at say $100 a pop when you can buy a nice vintage
one with a 14kt nib for $30 or so?