e-Bay sale: Wow what a problem customer

On Sat, 06 May 2006 09:30:28 GMT, "PC" wrote:

Folks I am in a tough bind here. As often is the case both sides have some
foothold in this claim but I feel that this guy is being very unreasonable.
I have maintained professionalism thus far but now this guy is threatening
my PayPal account.

I've read the other responses and agree with the ones that suggest you
should have quickly given the guy a full refund, including S&H, and
moved on.

It's gone too far now, though, and you are going to have a problem no
matter what you do. You're trying to reason with him in your email,
but your anger shows through. He's going to dig in, too.

In his email, he's stated that "we need to resolve this matter in a
hopefully healthy manner, what do you propose?????", so it's evident
that he will accept some sort of compromise.

Put the ball in his court. Just send him an email that says:

"On review, I see that the shipping delay has caused you a problem.
Please let me know exactly how you would like this handled and I will
comply."

Nothing more.

Eat a little crow just to defuse the situation. Don't add
explanations, excuses, or additional comments. Keep it brief and
don't add points that he can differ with.

Your objective at this point should be to end the situation as soon as
possible. You aren't going to "win", so don't make the losing more
painful.

It's like arguing with your wife. Sometimes it's better just to say
"You're right, I'm wrong, and I'll never do it again." even if she's
wrong. Some battles are unwinnable.



--


Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL

"Harv" wrote in message
...


You don't say what you sold

I sold him 10 Nebraska two roll sets for $349.95 (quite a nice price) and
12.95 s/h. He paid no insurance. Postage cost me $10.00; a flat rate
priority box at $8.10 and signature confirmation for $1.90.

or how much it sold for or how many total
feedbacks he has, but if he has many thousands, having 20 negatives might
put him at 99% or 98% which won't win him any Nobel Prizes but isn't
unreasonable. If he only has a couple hundred total with 20 negatives I
would have cancelled his bid and blocked him, unless he sniped, in which
case you don't have the time to do that.

I did some research and he has received 20 negative and 6 neutral. He has
left 17 negatives himself and 5 neutrals. He has a feedback score of 562
with 96.7% positive feedback. 585 positive feedback have been left with 20
negatives.


But in your future auctions you should rip out the word "immediately" as
some people will take that literally and throw a hissy fit if you don't
LITERALLY ship it immediately.


As I have so painfully learned... *sigh* I am going to change the text to
"will ship as soon as possible" for future auctions.

The thing is I notified him about the delay immediately and he had no
problem with it for 10 days. Now all of a sudden he wants out. I think
this is a case of buyer's remorse and he is grapsing at straws.

"Dale Hallmark" dalehall"AT"cableone.net wrote in message
...


What a crock of ****. PayPal will punish me even though I did
everything
right and can prove shipment was received? This has me tempted to open
a
new banking account, transfer all my funds to it, and delete my PayPal
account. Then let them try and get funds from me.


That is an option, I would be tempted.

Dale



This is exactly what I did a few years ago. Opened a completely separate
bank account to link to PayPal, never have more than about $100.00 in it so
they can't reach in and grab my main money. I NEVER leave anything in my
PayPal account. As soon as someone pays me for a win, I immediately withdraw
it from PayPal. PayPal is NOT a bank, is NOT FDIC insured or regulated and
they can do some very evil things with your money if they want to, including
freezing whatever's in your PayPal account and even reaching into your bank
account.. although I have gotten on the horn with them and worked my way up
the foodchain from the paper hats who read out of a book, to managers there
a couple times and gotten things set straight rather quickly. Polite, but
firm. Let them know that they're not dealing with a moron. Don't be or let
yourself be a victim.

At least you CAN get them on the phone immediately. eBay? Hah. Unless you're
a higher level Power Seller, good freakin' luck trying to get eBay on the
phone. Linking your main bank account to PayPal is, in my opinion, sheer
folly. It's a very convenient service and it works, but when something goes
wrong it can turn into a living nightmare.

So my advice is to go to a different bank and open a small checking account,
put no more than you can afford to have "tied up" and link that account to
PayPal and unlink your main account from them. If you buy something that
costs more than whatever you have in your linked account, you should be able
to transfer some money from one bank account to another using your bank's
online system, usually for a fee. At this point, with gasoline at these
obscene prices, the fee to do a bank to bank transfer online, typically
$5.00 or so, is cheaper than driving to a couple banks and doing it in
person.

Harv

Wow, PC. I feel your pain.

First thing to do is block the bidder so that he can never again bid on
your
auctions.

Re-working your terms is also a good idea. In no case should you get
into
a confrontational email correspondence with the buyer. If you feel
there is any
chance he could win in the complaint process (BTW, he probably has
somewhat of a case here, as the delivery time could be deemed to be
excessive). In the future, you should note any absences in your
listings...

Or, you can fight all the way, give him a negative feedback, and eat
the
negative you will receive from him. When leaving negative feedback,
just
give the facts, and don't go off the deep end with inappropriate
comments.
Everyone gets a negative sooner or later, it is no big deal.

Your subsequent idea of draining the PayPal account, etc. is also a
good one, and
one that many sellers use - it is not very wise to leave a lot in your
PayPal account,
obviously.

For me, it would depend on the amount of money we were talking about.
If it
was a lot, I might fight it to the end, but if it wasn't a lot, I would
probably refund
with S&H, block the guy, and forget about it.

Fortunately, very few people are unreasonable - most people, especially
in coins,
are super...

Kind Regards,
John

PC wrote:
Folks I am in a tough bind here. As often is the case both sides have some
foothold in this claim but I feel that this guy is being very unreasonable.
I have maintained professionalism thus far but now this guy is threatening
my PayPal account.

The background:
I was out of the country when an auction ended. I notified the buyer within
48 hours of the auction ending that I was out of the country and would
return on May 1. Upon returning I would mail his item ASAP. I received no
reply at that time.

I return to the country on May 1. On May 2, in the evening, I package this
guys item up. On May 3 I mailed the item right away in the morning. Upon
returning home that evening I find an e-mail from that was sent on around
10:30 PM May 2 saying he wants to back out of the sale if the items have not
shipped since he has a customer waiting on the items and has another venue
to purchase the same item. There is a follow up e-mail at 11:09 AM on May 3
with the same buyer stating that he need the items shipped ASAP as another
customer is waiting on them. Then I get an e-mail on May 3 with him wanting
to back out of the sale. In each e-mail he points to text in my auction
which states that "Checks must first clear with the bank before the item is
shipped. PayPal and money orders ship immediately". On the May 3 e-mail he
states that since the items were not sent as stated in the listing that he
wants to back out. As a somewhat unrelated side note his e-mails are filled
with spelling errors.

I e-mail the seller explaining that i shipped the previous day (a mistake in
verbiage, unfortuately as you will soon see).

On May 5 he receives the items and sends me this e-mail:
"hi patrick,

i find it very perculuier that you stated you shipped out day before you
replied to my email, yet postage was paid/stamped, and initiated on the 3rd
from your post office.
this is very disturbing, again as i had asked since you didn't expidite the
quarters to me as was stated in your listing, and i had to make other
arraingements for my customer, due to this.
i had made a promise to my customer, and needed to follow through, to make a
sale and keep a customer for future business.

i don't need these quarters now, and am not happy with how this worked out.
you made a promis commitment to ship out immeadiately on your auction
listing, and i bid accordingly to your promise/commitment.

we need to resolve this matter in a hopefully healthy manner, what do you
propose?????

i await a reply, and hopefully healthy solution, one we can both feel
comfortable with."

My reply to him:

"I stated at the time that the listing ended that I would not be able to
ship
until after May 1. You made no indication whatsoever at the time that you
needed the shipment to be expedited. Had I known there was an urgent need
to ship before that I could have contacted someone in the states to handle
the situation for me. There was never a request to expedite until May 2 -
one day after I informed you that I would return. By that time the order
had been packaged and it was sent before I read your e-mail.

All my auctions come with at least a 14 day return privilege, from the time
the goods were received, no questions asked as long as you have not opened
the boxes on them. Simply send the quarters back and I will issue a refund
check for the purchase amount less postage, e-Bay/PayPal fees, and
insurance."

Just before midnight on the 5th of May I get another e-mail from the guy:

"you made the statement concerning not shipping till beginning of may via
email after the auction had ended, and stated you were out of country. how
would i have known that other arraingments could be made with you being
away???? i am not the "amazing cresken".

the statement i am initially referring to, and what i went by in making my
decision to purchase was what you have listed in your auction page fore
these coins (located at the bottom of your listing) stating this
verbetim(actually copy/pasted your shipping instructions from listing:

Seller's payment instructions
PayPal, Money Orders, and Personal Checks are accepted. PayPal is mandatory
for international orders. PayPal and Money Orders ship immediately. Personal
Checks must clear before item is shipped. I do offer combined shipping for
multiple auctions won within 48 hours. Additional items are just $1 more. If
paying by check or money order you may combine auctions that finish within a
7 day period.

PAYPAL AND MONEY ORDERS SHIP IMMEADIATLEY.......... nothing states: OUT OF
COUNTRY, WILL SHIP UPON RETURN.......

I WILL NOT INCUR THE INITIAL 18.40 S&H AND INSURANCE PAID (WHEN IT COST YOU
ONLY 10.00 TOTAL) AND THE ADDITIONAL S&H/INSURANCE BACK TO YOU.

It took 10 days for you to act on this and i emailed you and got a reply a
day before you truly did ship out the coins, & i feel like you where trying
to salvage the sale, telling me they were already shipped out, when truly
they didn't ship till next day.

i ask once more to try to amicablly work this out, or i will contact ebay,
and leave appropriate feedback, and also file w/ paypal for transaction not
as stated and have your account frozen up till resolved.

this is something i would rather avoid, nor want to put the time/effort
into, but i am asking for a solution that is workable, or will be forced w/
no other choice, if it becomes nessesary."


Now at this point I am very angry. I was tempted to fire back an e-mail
saying that I do not appreciate threats. Perhaps for the future I should
change the text of my auction to say Paypal and money order ship as soon as
humanly possible. I mean if someone really wanted to get picky they could
claim if I did not ship within 5 minutes of a PayPal payment being recevived
since that does not constitute "immediately". The text was meant to
indicate only that checks have to clear first unlike Paypal and Money
Orders.

He asks how he was supposed to know I could make arrangements but on the
flip side how could I know he needed the shipment expedited if he did not
ask anything? Futhermore the $10 he cites is not shipping costs but merely
postage and signature confirmation. I offered this guy a return and he is
now treatening to shut down my PayPal account!

The reason I post this to the group is for a reality check. Am I being at
all unreasonable? He is clearly being unreasonable, yes?

Thanks for comments and criticisms alike.




--
CIA DEA DIA FBI KGB NSA WMD TLA

On Sat, 06 May 2006 13:30:51 GMT, "PC" wrote:

As I have so painfully learned... *sigh* I am going to change the text to
"will ship as soon as possible" for future auctions.

Why include anything of this nature? Unless you have some special
situation like "I ship only on Fridays", it's safest - and makes a
cleaner looking ad - to omit all references to what you will or won't
do or try to do.


--


Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL

In , on 05/06/2006
at 09:30 AM, "PC" said:

Now at this point I am very angry. I was tempted to fire back an e-mail
saying that I do not appreciate threats. Perhaps for the future I should
change the text of my auction to say Paypal and money order ship as soon as
humanly possible.

There you go. If you're going to state "immediately", gosh-golly, I would
expect things pretty darn quickly.

That said, a "normal individual" probably wouldn't have had trouble with
your delay. Bad luck to have sold to a "dealer" who needed it for a
"customer". This makes me wonder why the customer couldn't have shown some
initiatize and cut out the middle man, but that's just me.

I've always looked at it that, when a seller screws up, he should reimburse
the total amount, including shipping. The return shipping is optional, but
it seems a small price to pay to "save" your paypal account. And to try and
charge "eBay fees"??? You'd get a neg from me. I did Just That recently
when a moron sold me a PC card that wasn't even close to what he claimed.
He offered that kind of "refund".

Just last week I purchased a large lot of non-coins; stamps. Seller (third
party "service") claimed 75k stamps mounted in albums. I got a nice deal on
these and paid $50 to ship them to me. When they came, they were way short.
I figured, after counting 1 of 5 albums, that there were actually more like
11k. Not worth the money I paid AT ALL. So I wrote the seller, in a
relatively nice tone, asking for his suggestions as to how to resolve the
issue.

I was shocked. and quite pleased, when he appologized and offered a FULL
REFUND (including postage) and would even pay FedEx to come and pick the
item up and ship it back. A potentially nasty situation was instantly
defused. I thanked him profusely, and told him I would happily and promptly
prepare the box for pickup. But then I offered an alternative ... I would
be happy to pay him a much lesser amount; an amount that the set WAS worth
to me. He quickly agreed, and I believe we're both pretty happy. I am!
And the seller saved $100 in shipping costs he would have had to eat for no
sale. PLUS STINKING EBAY FEES.

Buyers, well, this one at least, aren't interested in your overhead. When I
take something back to ANY stored for a refund, I don't care to hear about
how much the electricity is costing the store, or how much they paid the
cashier, or the credit card company, or the accountants. Just give me what
I paid back. Including sales tax. It's YOUR job to argue with the
state/ebay to get the fees back, not mine.

In this case, yes, you did deliver and a more reasonable buyer would have
been ok. Bad luck, you didn't get an extemely reasonable buyer; you got one
with some time contraints that fit into your terms. But you didn't deliver
on your own terms. I think you did a decent job of trying to post-fix the
issue, but it didn't work out. I vote that you give the guy his money back
completely. If you're really worried about it, kick in the extra $10 for
return shipping. Then, quit listing auctions to end when you are out of
town.

Nick

"PC" wrote in message
...
..

I did some research and he has received 20 negative and 6 neutral. He has
left 17 negatives himself and 5 neutrals. He has a feedback score of 562
with 96.7% positive feedback. 585 positive feedback have been left with
20
negatives.


If he won with a snipe in the last few seconds, there's nothing you could
do. But if he had bid on one of my auctions for a multi hundred dollar item
with that kind of feedback, I would have cancelled his bid and blocked him
in a NY minute. I use this in every one of my auction's "Fine Print" terms
and conditions section.

"Payment should reach me in a max of one week after close. I consider this
reasonable, and if the winning bidder fails to pay in that time frame, I
reserve the right to cancel the sale and post negative feedback, report
non-paying bidders to eBay, add non-paying winners to my blocked bidder
list, and re-list the item and/or offer it to the second highest bidder.
Please understand what you are bidding on, and Please don't bid if you don't
intend to buy it! Bidders with excessive negative feedback or zero feedback
are blocked from bidding. I reserve the right to cancel any bid at any time
for any reason. If you have any questions click the [ask seller a question]
link above and ask."

I WILL stretch the payment period longer than one week if someone writes
with what sounds like a legitimate excuse as to why they can't get me the
payment in a week. And I've heard every excuse in the book. One woman won a
$3.00 item from me a few years ago (I no longer sell ANYTHING that cheap -
it just isn't worth the hassle..) .. and then told me "I can't pay until I
get my paycheck in three weeks. Is that okay?" If she doesn't have three
bucks to her name, why was she bidding on anything? But I let her do it
because it was a tiny amount. Another woman, the winner of a $30.00 or so
item, after not responding to my eBay invoice, finally wrote and said (I
swear I'm not making this up..) .. "My office mate was kidnapped and
murdered so my payment is going to be late." How do you even respond / react
to something like that? Was it real or horse****? Who knows. I didn't press
her for the money and she did eventually pay.

Back to your dilemma - In my book, 96.7% qualifies as excessive negative
feedback. So I would have cancelled his bid and blocked him. Unless he
sniped and won. As a seller, I / you / everyone has the right to do that
with or without explanation. But I spell it out up front in that quoted
section above.

Like I said, I've been doing this for eight years, have over (1300) unique
positives and have never had a negative {{knock wood}}.. so my system has
worked for me.

Also, if I'm taking a trip, I'll modify my descriptions to say so and / or
I'll actually take the items I have listed with me so I can mail them from
elsewhere if I have to. This is not practical if you have hundreds of items
listed or if they are very valuable, but if you only have a few, it's
do-able.

Look, you don't go into a supermarket, fill a cart, put your stuff on the
belt, wait while the checker rings it all up, the bagger bags it, and then
say "I'll be back to pay for it in two weeks." At least not in any
supermarket around here you don't. You pay on the spot. No tickee, no
washee. When I sell, I expect to be paid quickly, and when I win, I pay
quickly.

Just give the jerk his refund, block him, and chalk it up as an ugly
unpleasant experience. The more you get into it with him, the uglier it's
gonna get.

Harv

In , on 05/06/2006
at 12:19 PM, "PC" said:

That is what I am hoping for. I have lived up to the terms of the
agreement despite his attempts to nitpick my auction text.

I'm sorry, am I interrupting a party only for dealers? I've got another 15
posts in this thread to read yet, but so far all I see is a big dealer pitty
part.

You can't possibly think that you lived up to the terms of your own policy,
can you? Really? Well, let's hope we find some more balanced opinions in
the articles to follow.

Nick

"Nick Knight" wrote in message
...
In , on 05/06/2006
at 09:30 AM, "PC" said:

Now at this point I am very angry. I was tempted to fire back an e-mail
saying that I do not appreciate threats. Perhaps for the future I should
change the text of my auction to say Paypal and money order ship as soon
as
humanly possible.

There you go. If you're going to state "immediately", gosh-golly, I would
expect things pretty darn quickly.

That said, a "normal individual" probably wouldn't have had trouble with
your delay. Bad luck to have sold to a "dealer" who needed it for a
"customer". This makes me wonder why the customer couldn't have shown
some
initiatize and cut out the middle man, but that's just me.

I've always looked at it that, when a seller screws up, he should
reimburse
the total amount, including shipping. The return shipping is optional,
but
it seems a small price to pay to "save" your paypal account. And to try
and
charge "eBay fees"??? You'd get a neg from me. I did Just That recently
when a moron sold me a PC card that wasn't even close to what he claimed.
He offered that kind of "refund".

Just last week I purchased a large lot of non-coins; stamps. Seller
(third
party "service") claimed 75k stamps mounted in albums. I got a nice deal
on
these and paid $50 to ship them to me. When they came, they were way
short.
I figured, after counting 1 of 5 albums, that there were actually more
like
11k. Not worth the money I paid AT ALL. So I wrote the seller, in a
relatively nice tone, asking for his suggestions as to how to resolve the
issue.

I was shocked. and quite pleased, when he appologized and offered a FULL
REFUND (including postage) and would even pay FedEx to come and pick the
item up and ship it back. A potentially nasty situation was instantly
defused. I thanked him profusely, and told him I would happily and
promptly
prepare the box for pickup. But then I offered an alternative ... I would
be happy to pay him a much lesser amount; an amount that the set WAS worth
to me. He quickly agreed, and I believe we're both pretty happy. I am!
And the seller saved $100 in shipping costs he would have had to eat for
no
sale. PLUS STINKING EBAY FEES.

Buyers, well, this one at least, aren't interested in your overhead. When
I
take something back to ANY stored for a refund, I don't care to hear about
how much the electricity is costing the store, or how much they paid the
cashier, or the credit card company, or the accountants. Just give me
what
I paid back. Including sales tax. It's YOUR job to argue with the
state/ebay to get the fees back, not mine.

In this case, yes, you did deliver and a more reasonable buyer would have
been ok. Bad luck, you didn't get an extemely reasonable buyer; you got
one
with some time contraints that fit into your terms. But you didn't
deliver
on your own terms. I think you did a decent job of trying to post-fix the
issue, but it didn't work out. I vote that you give the guy his money
back
completely. If you're really worried about it, kick in the extra $10 for
return shipping. Then, quit listing auctions to end when you are out of
town.

Nick

I had 10 auctions end in the evening; that morning my father died. I left
town immediately
and the next morning went to the public library (knew no one there with a
computer)
and emailed all the bidders that it would be 3-5 days before I could
mail the items. They all had paid immediately (don't know how that
happened!)
I hadn't stated a time frame in my auction.
Nine of them were sympatric and said take all the time I needed.
The 10th said ok but was skeptical.

When I got back to town (three days later) after a 9 hour drive, I packaged
the items and mailed them immediately and emailed all the buyers that I had
done so.
Two days later the 10th buyer asked where his package was. I told him to
give it a week
and if the package hadn't arrived I would refund all his money and all
shipping charges.

Couple days later he emailed me that it arrived.
I got 9 positive feedbacks and one didn't leave any feedback.
Guess which one that was.

S*** happens and you can't always be there at the auction end.
I think it should be a rare occurrence however.

Dale

"Nick Knight" wrote in message
...
In , on 05/06/2006
at 09:30 AM, "PC" said:

Now at this point I am very angry. I was tempted to fire back an e-mail
saying that I do not appreciate threats. Perhaps for the future I should
change the text of my auction to say Paypal and money order ship as soon
as
humanly possible.

There you go. If you're going to state "immediately", gosh-golly, I would
expect things pretty darn quickly.


But I explained to him the situation and he gave no protest. I fully
informed him of the situation. He has ample time to back out and protest.
He did not.

That said, a "normal individual" probably wouldn't have had trouble with
your delay. Bad luck to have sold to a "dealer" who needed it for a
"customer". This makes me wonder why the customer couldn't have shown
some
initiatize and cut out the middle man, but that's just me.

I've always looked at it that, when a seller screws up, he should
reimburse
the total amount, including shipping. The return shipping is optional,
but
it seems a small price to pay to "save" your paypal account. And to try
and
charge "eBay fees"??? You'd get a neg from me. I did Just That recently
when a moron sold me a PC card that wasn't even close to what he claimed.
He offered that kind of "refund".


That was a mistake as I can recoup e-Bay fees by saying he backed out of the
sale. I can recoup PayPal fees by giving him the refund through PayPal.

*snip*

return shipping. Then, quit listing auctions to end when you are out of
town.


I often get called out of town with no more than a days notice. Sometimes
it can not be avoided. I have already changed the text on current auctions
so that in the future when that text (which is filled in automatically based
on your last sale) is read it will state ASAP.

This guy is still an a***ole.