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#1
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Need some French terms defined
As I look at who was involved in the making of French stamps and banknotes,
I'm getting confused on what the roles of the individuals are. Perhaps someone here can help. Typically these acronyms are found after a name, and I'm wondering whether someone could give me definitions: SC (a sculpte) INV (a invente) FEC (a fait) DEL (a dessine) I'm not a total bonehead on these terms, they sound rather obvious outside the context of stamp or banknote production. But specifically as they relate to that task, can someone define what each type of person actually does? Thanks Dave |
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#2
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Need some French terms defined
Dave wrote :
As I look at who was involved in the making of French stamps and banknotes, I'm getting confused on what the roles of the individuals are. Perhaps someone here can help. Typically these acronyms are found after a name, and I'm wondering whether someone could give me definitions: SC (a sculpte) INV (a invente) FEC (a fait) DEL (a dessine) I'm not a total bonehead on these terms, they sound rather obvious outside the context of stamp or banknote production. But specifically as they relate to that task, can someone define what each type of person actually does? Thanks Dave Hi Dave, If I recall correctly, we already had here a similar discussion months (years ?) ago. The only thing I can answer right now is that these acronyms are in fact the begining of latine words : Sculptit Inventit Fecit Deleinatit (or a similar word : my latine - 50 years ago - is too rusty to remember correctly these difficult words ... ) HTH -- All the best, Pierre Courtiade |
#3
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Need some French terms defined
"Pierre COURTIADE" wrote :
Dave wrote : As I look at who was involved in the making of French stamps and banknotes, I'm getting confused on what the roles of the individuals are. Perhaps someone here can help. Typically these acronyms are found after a name, and I'm wondering whether someone could give me definitions: SC (a sculpte) INV (a invente) FEC (a fait) DEL (a dessine) I'm not a total bonehead on these terms, they sound rather obvious outside the context of stamp or banknote production. But specifically as they relate to that task, can someone define what each type of The only thing I can answer right now is that these acronyms are in fact the begining of latine words : Vale, mi fili ;-) Sculptit Sculpsit ? Inventit Invenit ? Fecit Deleinatit (or a similar word : my latine - 50 years ago - is too rusty to remember correctly these difficult words ... ) Delineavit ? Anyway, grosso modo : X Inv means that X was the author of the original design (a sketch, most often) X Del means that X produced the definitive sketch of the stamp, that is a precise model for the engraver. X Sc means that X engraved the dye. I am not so easy with "Fecit" (he made it), which might encompass two or three among the above terms. The "Peace and Commerce" allegory 1876-1900 series is probably the most striking example among french stamps, with three of those terms featuring : J.A. Sage Inv : Jules-Auguste Sage produced a sketch that was selected by a jury, on it's artistic value, but there remained details needing modifications for engraving (e.g. line or dashed line patterns needed to be changed into flat colored surfaces, or the design needed be modified for larger face value figures, or for different captions...) E. Mouchon Del & Sc : Eugene Mouchon produced the final drawing (in view of engraving), and then engraved a dye. I am referring here to the typographic and recess stamp-printing contexts, but it may be transposed to other ways of producing stamps and stamp dyes. -- Cordialement, Bruno |
#4
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Need some French terms defined
"Pierre COURTIADE" wrote in message ... Hi Dave, If I recall correctly, we already had here a similar discussion months (years ?) ago. I'll poke around and see if I can bring that back up, thanks. The only thing I can answer right now is that these acronyms are in fact the begining of latine words : Sculptit Inventit Fecit Deleinatit (or a similar word : my latine - 50 years ago - is too rusty to remember correctly these difficult words ... ) HTH -- All the best, Pierre Courtiade Thank you Pierre, I hadn't realized these were latin. My French catalog has given me the general definitions, in French as I listed above. But perhaps my question wasn't completely clear. I really don't need a translation of the words, I'm looking for what they actually mean, in the implementation. For example, the Sage issues have "Sage, INV" written in the bottom margin. My catalog definition would translate that to "Sage, invented", which to me is bizarre as I don't think there is an "invention" here. Later, the typo Gandon Marianne issues state "Gandon DEL" - and my catalog definition would translate that to "Gandon, drew this" - which probably makes sense, and they also state "Cortot SC" which I would translate as "Cortot sculpted this". I'm not aware of this design coming from a sculpture, so perhaps the usage "SC" actually means that Cortot "engraved" this issue - ie converted it from the Gandon artwork to the physical medium for typography? I hope that helps clarify what I'm looking for. Dave |
#5
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Need some French terms defined
Interesting post and discussion! bravo.
"bc92" The "Peace and Commerce" allegory 1876-1900 series is probably the most striking example among french stamps, with three of those terms featuring : Bruno |
#6
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Need some French terms defined
"bc92" wrote in message ... X Inv means that X was the author of the original design (a sketch, most often) X Del means that X produced the definitive sketch of the stamp, that is a precise model for the engraver. X Sc means that X engraved the dye. I am not so easy with "Fecit" (he made it), which might encompass two or three among the above terms. The "Peace and Commerce" allegory 1876-1900 series is probably the most striking example among french stamps, with three of those terms featuring : J.A. Sage Inv : Jules-Auguste Sage produced a sketch that was selected by a jury, on it's artistic value, but there remained details needing modifications for engraving (e.g. line or dashed line patterns needed to be changed into flat colored surfaces, or the design needed be modified for larger face value figures, or for different captions...) E. Mouchon Del & Sc : Eugene Mouchon produced the final drawing (in view of engraving), and then engraved a dye. I am referring here to the typographic and recess stamp-printing contexts, but it may be transposed to other ways of producing stamps and stamp dyes. -- Cordialement, Bruno Ah, wonderful Bruno, thank you!! Dave |
#7
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Need some French terms defined
Dave a écrit:
For example, the Sage issues have "Sage, INV" written in the bottom margin. My catalog definition would translate that to "Sage, invented", which to me is bizarre as I don't think there is an "invention" here. Hi, Let say Sage is the author. For the sower, Roty is the author (inv) of this plaque http://timbreposte.free.fr/mag-timbr...al-semeuse.jpg The design for the stamp is from Mouchon (del), the translation from a design (painting, ...) to a line only design isn't always an easy task. Later, the typo Gandon Marianne issues state "Gandon DEL" - and my catalog definition would translate that to "Gandon, drew this" - which probably makes sense, and they also state "Cortot SC" which I would translate as "Cortot sculpted this". I'm not aware of this design coming from a sculpture, so perhaps the usage "SC" actually means that Cortot "engraved" this issue - ie converted it from the Gandon artwork to the physical medium for typography? Yes, a die (typographic or intaglio) is a sculpture, sc is for the engraver. It's a 3 dimension work ; it's a bit like sculpting stone, the artist remove hard matter, although the size is smaller : similar tools are used (chisel, burin) ; no hammer for the die ! It wasn't easy to make a typographic version of Gandon engraving, several artists have produced dies (Cortot : 2, Hourriez, Frères, I may miss one) http://www.dieproofs.it/archivio/pro...&spgmFilters=t There is a tradition on French stamps, the authors are at the bottom of the stamp. On left, the design author (inv, eventually del). At right the engraver (sometimes del ; and sc). If there is only one author, it's on the right. It explains why everybody thinks Dulac is the engraver of his London Marianne. For the FEC sign, I've never seen it (is it a banknote thing ?). Perharps it has something to do with collaborative work ; where a "senior" engraver (sc) do the delicate work (portrait for instance) and a "junior" engraver do the fillings and geometric work (fec ?). -- Cordialement Dominique Stéphan http://www.blog-philatelie.com/ Mon blog philatélie http://www.timbre-poste.com/ Timbres-poste d'usage courant http://amisdemarianne.free.fr/ Cercle des Amis de Marianne |
#8
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Need some French terms defined
"rodney" wrote in message
... Interesting post and discussion! bravo. An even more because permanents from RCSD and FRP participate in it. The philately is universal :-) -- Victor Manta ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Philatelic Webmasters Organization: http://pwmo.org/ Art on Stamps: http://artonstamps.org/ Romania by Stamps: http://marci-postale.com/ Communism on Stamps: http://reds-on.postalstamps.biz/ Spanish North Africa: http://www.sna-on.postalstamps.biz/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
#9
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Need some French terms defined
Dominique Stéphan schrieb:
Dave a écrit: For example, the Sage issues have "Sage, INV" written in the bottom margin. My catalog definition would translate that to "Sage, invented", which to me is bizarre as I don't think there is an "invention" here. Hi, Let say Sage is the author. For the sower, Roty is the author (inv) of this plaque http://timbreposte.free.fr/mag-timbr...al-semeuse.jpg The design for the stamp is from Mouchon (del), the translation from a design (painting, ...) to a line only design isn't always an easy task. Later, the typo Gandon Marianne issues state "Gandon DEL" - and my catalog definition would translate that to "Gandon, drew this" - which probably makes sense, and they also state "Cortot SC" which I would translate as "Cortot sculpted this". I'm not aware of this design coming from a sculpture, so perhaps the usage "SC" actually means that Cortot "engraved" this issue - ie converted it from the Gandon artwork to the physical medium for typography? Yes, a die (typographic or intaglio) is a sculpture, sc is for the engraver. It's a 3 dimension work ; it's a bit like sculpting stone, the artist remove hard matter, although the size is smaller : similar tools are used (chisel, burin) ; no hammer for the die ! It wasn't easy to make a typographic version of Gandon engraving, several artists have produced dies (Cortot : 2, Hourriez, Frères, I may miss one) http://www.dieproofs.it/archivio/pro...&spgmFilters=t There is a tradition on French stamps, the authors are at the bottom of the stamp. On left, the design author (inv, eventually del). At right the engraver (sometimes del ; and sc). If there is only one author, it's on the right. It explains why everybody thinks Dulac is the engraver of his London Marianne. For the FEC sign, I've never seen it (is it a banknote thing ?). Perharps it has something to do with collaborative work ; where a "senior" engraver (sc) do the delicate work (portrait for instance) and a "junior" engraver do the fillings and geometric work (fec ?). Hi Dave and all, let´s go back to the 19th century and the art of steel engraving: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel_engraving There are many landscape pictures, for example by William Henry Bartlett, who painted them. For a printing of these pictures he needed a steel engraving, often done by Albert Henry Payne. If You look at these pictures You can often read in the bottom line: Bartlett pinxit and Payne sculpit, the latin words for "painted" and "engraved". For example: http://www.staatliche-bibliothek-pas.../phs/m012.html You can also find the "del" on these pictures: http://www.staatliche-bibliothek-pas...d/phs/088.html or he http://www.staatliche-bibliothek-pas.../phs/m007.html You can also find bottom line inscriptions as "del et sc.": http://cgi.ebay.at/alter-Stahlstich-... cmdZViewItem In my opinion the "del." is the abbreviation of "delinere" what means "drawing", but I am not sure. A steel engraving is mostly art work of two different artists, the painter and the engraver, so both are mentioned. There was no reason do handle it in a different way with stamps and stamps engraving I think. My five pence to this. kind regards Gerhard |
#10
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Need some French terms defined
"Gerhard Reichert" wrote in message ... http://www.staatliche-bibliothek-pas.../phs/m007.html You can also find bottom line inscriptions as "del et sc.": http://cgi.ebay.at/alter-Stahlstich-Neurathen-A-H-Payne-del-et-sc_W0QQitemZ160242908824QQihZ006QQcategoryZ81909Q QcmdZViewItem Yes, in fact the Peace & Commerce issue lists "Sage INV" on the left side, and "Mouchon D&S" on the right, now I know what that refers to. In my opinion the "del." is the abbreviation of "delinere" what means "drawing", but I am not sure. My banknote catalog, as well as an earlier post by Bruno list DEL as being "Delineavit" Thanks for the connections to steel engraving, Gerhard Dave |
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