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early seeburg stereo sound quality questions



 
 
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  #21  
Old November 2nd 04, 07:48 AM
george craig
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Rick, i never put padding in my Q160 as my main focus was on the 201...
I posted pics of how it is installed in my 201 at the
alt.binaries.pictures.radio N/G.... I think I will start tweeking the Q160
with padding and see how it sounds
...............George





"george craig" wrote in message
...
My Seeburg Q160 is similar to the 222 and has the 6973 output tubes, and
7199
as driver.... as I recall , the 222 amp has 6973 outputs a 12AX7A as
driver...

I moded my Q160 amp and run with the AGC tubes pulled , the cartridge is
the origional type with the grey diamond needles bass boost is set to MID
position and trebel is set to MAX position origional equipment speakers
which
includes a crossover and tweeter....

My Q160 has quite a bit of punchy bass but the mid range and trebel could

be
better and cleaner sounding......

Me thinks the cartridge in the Q160 is not as good as the stereo

cartridge
used in
later 60's jukes....... the 345-03D was a mono version of this cartridge
.... these
cartridges all have diferent plugs and would require changing the tone arm
or making an adaptor to fit.....I finally decided to just leave it stock..
but at some time I will look into changing the tone arm and cartridge
.......George










"Rick Force" wrote in message
om...
hi George,
The coaxials are Atlas/Soundolier C123, 12" woofers with 3" post
mounted tweeters, 16ohm, 25 watts.


"george craig" wrote in message

...
Rick , what type of coaxial speakers are you using??? you state your

222
has muddy bass on new 80's 90's records with bass boost set to max

...you
might try putting acoustic dampening material behind the speakers

this
will
absorb internal reflections that will clean up mid range frequencies

and
dampen boom with the bass boost set to max... as an experiment try

using a
couple of towels ....the closer they are to the speaker the greater

the
dampening
effect......George






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  #22  
Old November 2nd 04, 10:59 PM
Jim Murphy
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Posts: n/a
Default

Mark, I am particularly swamped right now but let me suggest that you
contact Jewel Recording, Kinney Ave. Cincinnati, OH , Rusty York chief
engineer. He still has a 45RPM lathe in his recording studio where he used
to cut masters. He will know considerably more than I from memory. His web
site is www.jewelrecords.com

"Mark Robinson" wrote in message
news:BvDhd.3837$304.1327@trndny06...
Hi Jim,

Thanks for the feedback. I'd be interested in any info or references to
info you have on groove profiles. I've been working on a homebrew
recording
lathe and I am still learning about recording standards and practices
(past
and present).

I agree there has been big advances in speaker design over the years, but
I
still feel most of the improvements to circuit design were already in
place
in the late 40's and early 50's. The Hi-Fi revolution really began in the
50's. It was mostly a process of getting the cost down to the level that
average consumers could afford.

Mark






  #23  
Old November 3rd 04, 12:12 AM
Rick Force
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Default

Thanks George for the input...i'll follow your progress to see how it
goes. My 222 has the original red head with grey diamond needles. I
had to try several vendors before I found "T'" that sounded ok. I too
think about swapping in a later stereo arm/ cart just to buy cheaper
needles, let alone the sound Rick.


"george craig" wrote in message ...
My Seeburg Q160 is similar to the 222 and has the 6973 output tubes, and
7199
as driver.... as I recall , the 222 amp has 6973 outputs a 12AX7A as
driver...

I moded my Q160 amp and run with the AGC tubes pulled , the cartridge is
the origional type with the grey diamond needles bass boost is set to MID
position and trebel is set to MAX position origional equipment speakers
which
includes a crossover and tweeter....

My Q160 has quite a bit of punchy bass but the mid range and trebel could be
better and cleaner sounding......

Me thinks the cartridge in the Q160 is not as good as the stereo cartridge
used in
later 60's jukes....... the 345-03D was a mono version of this cartridge
.... these
cartridges all have diferent plugs and would require changing the tone arm
or making an adaptor to fit.....I finally decided to just leave it stock..
but at some time I will look into changing the tone arm and cartridge
.......George










"Rick Force" wrote in message
om...
hi George,
The coaxials are Atlas/Soundolier C123, 12" woofers with 3" post
mounted tweeters, 16ohm, 25 watts.


"george craig" wrote in message

...
Rick , what type of coaxial speakers are you using??? you state your

222
has muddy bass on new 80's 90's records with bass boost set to max

...you
might try putting acoustic dampening material behind the speakers this

will
absorb internal reflections that will clean up mid range frequencies

and
dampen boom with the bass boost set to max... as an experiment try

using a
couple of towels ....the closer they are to the speaker the greater

the
dampening
effect......George


  #24  
Old November 3rd 04, 04:34 AM
Ken G.
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Posts: n/a
Default

I am beggining to think this talk about groove pitch and needles is
touching on `` audio phile`` ground where most of us cant hear a
difference .
I am no expert but have played hundreds of records on dozens of record
players of all kinds and done needle experiments on turntables and in
jukeboxes and the range in sound on 45 rpm records with a good 45 rpm
needle is mostly due to the way the record was recorded and not tiny
technical differences in needles . These are just jukeboxes made to put
out decent ``sound`` for the public to spend their change on not high
end audio systems with life like speakers .
You can put the same record on one machine and 5 different people will
hear it different .. it can be hard to tell another person what sounds
good or `right` because we all hear different .

I think many machines lack in real deep nice modern bass because the
crude rumble from the record motor would come out like mad . Just hook a
modern subwoofer to an old 50`s juke and you will see what i mean :-)

  #25  
Old November 3rd 04, 02:51 PM
Mark Robinson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the info. I may bug him.

Mark
"Jim Murphy" wrote in message
...
Mark, I am particularly swamped right now but let me suggest that you
contact Jewel Recording, Kinney Ave. Cincinnati, OH , Rusty York chief
engineer. He still has a 45RPM lathe in his recording studio where he used
to cut masters. He will know considerably more than I from memory. His

web
site is www.jewelrecords.com

"Mark Robinson" wrote in message
news:BvDhd.3837$304.1327@trndny06...
Hi Jim,

Thanks for the feedback. I'd be interested in any info or references to
info you have on groove profiles. I've been working on a homebrew
recording
lathe and I am still learning about recording standards and practices
(past
and present).

I agree there has been big advances in speaker design over the years,

but
I
still feel most of the improvements to circuit design were already in
place
in the late 40's and early 50's. The Hi-Fi revolution really began in

the
50's. It was mostly a process of getting the cost down to the level

that
average consumers could afford.

Mark



  #26  
Old November 3rd 04, 03:06 PM
Mark Robinson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hi Ken,

I think you are right on the money. At the high frequency end of the
spectrum, the manufacturers had to deal with the fact that after many plays
the records (and styli) would start to degrade. If the high frequency
response was extended to what would be considered Hi-Fi by today's
standards, the resulting distortion would sound horrible. The result of
this is that many of these boxes sound ok with poorer quality records.
Conversely, they don't sound much better with good quality records. If you
come at the hobby with a Hi-Fi home stereo expectation, you will probably be
disappointed in the sound. Later model boxes evolved into higher fidelity
because the general population became used to higher quality sound. So
boxes tracked lighter, had better designed cabinets and speaker systems,
and the voicing was tailored to modern tastes. To me, the old 50's boxes
sound warm but tend to lack the detail you find in a modern home stereo.
Some records sound amazing on these boxes and others make my ears want to
bleed. I don't stress over it.

Mark


"Ken G." wrote in message
...
I am beggining to think this talk about groove pitch and needles is
touching on `` audio phile`` ground where most of us cant hear a
difference .
I am no expert but have played hundreds of records on dozens of record
players of all kinds and done needle experiments on turntables and in
jukeboxes and the range in sound on 45 rpm records with a good 45 rpm
needle is mostly due to the way the record was recorded and not tiny
technical differences in needles . These are just jukeboxes made to put
out decent ``sound`` for the public to spend their change on not high
end audio systems with life like speakers .
You can put the same record on one machine and 5 different people will
hear it different .. it can be hard to tell another person what sounds
good or `right` because we all hear different .

I think many machines lack in real deep nice modern bass because the
crude rumble from the record motor would come out like mad . Just hook a
modern subwoofer to an old 50`s juke and you will see what i mean :-)



  #27  
Old November 4th 04, 01:07 AM
Jjmscf
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Posts: n/a
Default

Also the bass response couldn't be extended because of feedback.I had a lot of
fun getting the setup right on my home stereo to eliminate feedback at high
volumes without turning the bass down for playing records.I have the old school
large woofer speakers with 15" woofers and can only get the speakers about 3 to
4 ft away from the turntable in my living room.In jukeboxes the woofers are
right in there with the turntable.My jukes don't go quite as deep on the bass
or go quite as loud but they have sufficient bass to sound decent.The highs
will never be as crisp on a 45 juke as a home stereo.If they were you could
only play newer records with very few plays in them without getting a lot of
noise.Some of the older original 45s I can't bear to listen to on my stereo
play a lot cleaner in the jukebox.
  #28  
Old November 4th 04, 07:06 AM
Ken G.
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Default

Mark and (Jim ? )

Agreed fully . I own a Wurlitzer 1250 made in 1950 it sounds great but
not real strong on bass accept a good record it shakes the floor ...
anyway this machine has one big 15`` speaker . The amp has a socket for
an external amp of all things . I got curious and plugged an amp in .
The sound i got was far better than expected with super crisp highs and
good bass . The modern powered sub woofer flunked this test though :-)

My Seeburg G plays some pretty scratched up records very clean ..
intersting ..the 1250 does not hide the scratches well .

  #29  
Old November 4th 04, 03:11 PM
Happy 70's Seeburg Owner
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Default

if you use one of the not so good looking fold ups you can always repaint
them
and look for repo video machine graphics to stick to it to make it look like
an giant arcade machine

jim w

"Ken G." wrote in message
...
Mark and (Jim ? )

Agreed fully . I own a Wurlitzer 1250 made in 1950 it sounds great but
not real strong on bass accept a good record it shakes the floor ...
anyway this machine has one big 15`` speaker . The amp has a socket for
an external amp of all things . I got curious and plugged an amp in .
The sound i got was far better than expected with super crisp highs and
good bass . The modern powered sub woofer flunked this test though :-)

My Seeburg G plays some pretty scratched up records very clean ..
intersting ..the 1250 does not hide the scratches well .



  #30  
Old November 5th 04, 04:38 AM
Jim Murphy
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Posts: n/a
Default

If memory serves correctly the 1250 uses a cobra cart which will pick up
highs better than some of the crystal types. The amp had some compensation
circuitry to de-emphasise the scratches. This is true of many jukebox amps
with some having switches allowing the operator to determine the level of
compensation.

"Ken G." wrote in message
...
Mark and (Jim ? )

Agreed fully . I own a Wurlitzer 1250 made in 1950 it sounds great but
not real strong on bass accept a good record it shakes the floor ...
anyway this machine has one big 15`` speaker . The amp has a socket for
an external amp of all things . I got curious and plugged an amp in .
The sound i got was far better than expected with super crisp highs and
good bass . The modern powered sub woofer flunked this test though :-)

My Seeburg G plays some pretty scratched up records very clean ..
intersting ..the 1250 does not hide the scratches well .



 




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