early seeburg stereo sound quality questions

Hi all,
Since I got my 222 back from being rebuilt (it runs great), i'm not
too impressed with the sound. Just how good or HI-FI are these
supposed to sound (as compared to other early stereo jukes, any
mfgr.)? Forget that I replaced the speakers...just how can this juke
be described as Hi-Fi when it only has 2 woofers in it? The mono
models before and the stereo models after have multi speaker systems.
Seems to me seeburg should have put in tweeters...there's plenty of
room. My main complaint (and I have coaxials in there now) that
(depending on the vintage of record) the sound can sound good (most
50's and 60's records), but alot of modern (80's-90's) records sound
to midrangy...not enough bass or good hi's. The bass is too muddy on
the highest position, so it's on the click just below max
bass...treble is about 1/2 way (pos. 4 or 5 out of 6). Just doesn't
sound that great for me. I've tried different T needle sets to varying
degrees of quality. What's left to try? (I haven't tried sapphire yet,
but the diamonds are expensive enough). I really liked the sound of a
wurly 2300 several years ago...lots of juke bass punch, which is
lacking in the 222....no juke punch/ sound. I guess I could reinstall
the original woofers. how does an AY or Q sound..they use the same amp
don't they? I'm also running 6CZ5's (with the socket mod)instead of
6973's, would that make a difference? Thank you for the input, Rick.

I restored 2... AY160`s they do have somewhat the same amp than the
222, same outputs but the 222 has way more parts in it .
One had the 2973`s the other i converted to 5CZ5`s .
Both machines sounded much like you explain your 222 ... just
``average`` , my Seeburg G blows them away .

For some reason the original speakers sounded better bass wise . I had
the one AY in my garage for a long time and if i stood in one place in
the room i could hear nice deep bass .
One option would be to add a new free standing sub woofer to the 222 and
add 2 small tweeters right in front of the original woofers .
I have noticed many older records just dont have very good bass .

Maybe someone knows of a cartridge change that would help ?

The mid 60`s solid state seeburgs had pretty good bass .

On 28 Oct 2004 02:57:48 -0700, (Rick Force)
wrote:

Hi all,
Since I got my 222 back from being rebuilt (it runs great), i'm not
too impressed with the sound. Just how good or HI-FI are these
supposed to sound (as compared to other early stereo jukes, any
mfgr.)? Forget that I replaced the speakers...just how can this juke
be described as Hi-Fi when it only has 2 woofers in it?

something like this machine with 2 decent size woofers in it - and
with a relatively high wattage stereo ampilifier playing off a 45 RPM
record was probably about as HI FI as things got back then for the
ordinary person.

The average home of the era would likely have an AM radio, and
possibly a record player, which probably was mono and certainly would
have an inferior sound to many of the jukes, so I would imagine that
people thought this machine to have outstanding sound quality and to
them was indeed Hi-Fi.


The mono
models before and the stereo models after have multi speaker systems.
Seems to me seeburg should have put in tweeters...there's plenty of
room. My main complaint (and I have coaxials in there now) that
(depending on the vintage of record) the sound can sound good (most
50's and 60's records), but alot of modern (80's-90's) records sound
to midrangy...not enough bass or good hi's. The bass is too muddy on
the highest position, so it's on the click just below max
bass...treble is about 1/2 way (pos. 4 or 5 out of 6). Just doesn't
sound that great for me. I've tried different T needle sets to varying
degrees of quality. What's left to try? (I haven't tried sapphire yet,
but the diamonds are expensive enough). I really liked the sound of a
wurly 2300 several years ago...lots of juke bass punch, which is
lacking in the 222....no juke punch/ sound. I guess I could reinstall
the original woofers. how does an AY or Q sound..they use the same amp
don't they? I'm also running 6CZ5's (with the socket mod)instead of
6973's, would that make a difference? Thank you for the input, Rick.


I dont know a lot about seeburg models of that era - but I do know
that its hard to get modern (well 80's and 90's) records to sound any
good on older Rowe machines from the 50's and 60's - even if you start
changing speakers/adding tweeters etc its not in any way an easy
process.

many original records from the era of the machine however usually
sounded ok though when played on the same machine.

I presume that back then, 45 records and the recorded music of the era
didnt really have much of a treble content compared to later times -
and therefore most of the design and audio engineering of the juke and
of the manufacture of the early records was to get the most out of the
bass, and mids rather than even think about treble

probably they aimed for the frequency range to be more in the limits
of AM radio frequency response.

Hi Rick,
I'm not a sound expert, but I thought I would respond to your post.
Looking back, it seems to me that Seeburg brought out a lot of models
with a certain "gimmick" (for lack of a better word), or "hook" to
differentiate themselves from the other top three manufacturers. For
instance, the G of 1953 had a little 4" speaker along with the normal
15", and they dubbed it "high fidelity, which was different than the
accompanying model W of the same year. The next year's model R had
five speakers, and a "high fidelity amp to go with it.
When stereo came into being, Seeburg's hook was the twin Channel
1/Channel 2 remote speakers to go along with the juke, to get that
"true" stereo sound. They even made a 45 rpm demo record to go along
with each sold model to the operators, to inform them of the wonderful
technology of stereo.
I've talked to some amp re-builders in the industry, and few of them
really like the amp from the 220/222.
I can't help you with the sound problems you're describing...too
technical for me. Perhaps someone else in the "group" can help more.
Rob









..com (Rick Force) wrote in message . com...
Hi all,
Since I got my 222 back from being rebuilt (it runs great), i'm not
too impressed with the sound. Just how good or HI-FI are these
supposed to sound (as compared to other early stereo jukes, any
mfgr.)? Forget that I replaced the speakers...just how can this juke
be described as Hi-Fi when it only has 2 woofers in it? The mono
models before and the stereo models after have multi speaker systems.
Seems to me seeburg should have put in tweeters...there's plenty of
room. My main complaint (and I have coaxials in there now) that
(depending on the vintage of record) the sound can sound good (most
50's and 60's records), but alot of modern (80's-90's) records sound
to midrangy...not enough bass or good hi's. The bass is too muddy on
the highest position, so it's on the click just below max
bass...treble is about 1/2 way (pos. 4 or 5 out of 6). Just doesn't
sound that great for me. I've tried different T needle sets to varying
degrees of quality. What's left to try? (I haven't tried sapphire yet,
but the diamonds are expensive enough). I really liked the sound of a
wurly 2300 several years ago...lots of juke bass punch, which is
lacking in the 222....no juke punch/ sound. I guess I could reinstall
the original woofers. how does an AY or Q sound..they use the same amp
don't they? I'm also running 6CZ5's (with the socket mod)instead of
6973's, would that make a difference? Thank you for the input, Rick.

How did it sound with the original speakers? What you installed may be
incorrect for the juke. Orignal speakers are considered full range, as
used in guitar amps. These are not woofers. If you installed woofers
you loose that midrange. Much better to repair or re-cone original
speakers. Seeburg paid their enginers a lot of money to match those
speakers to that amp and cabinet. For best sound, hook up external
speakers. This will also give you the true stereo effect and you can
crank it up and not have to wory about cabinet rattles.

see my little blurb on my web site concerning your amp
if the amp was properly rebuilt, (replacing caps and out of tolerance
resistors) and the original speakers reconed. the box really sounds good.
remove the (REMOVETHIS) between my name and the @ to email me

thanks
rich
the web site http://webpages.charter.net/richklestinez
click enter then select notes and stuff.

"Rick Force" wrote in message
om...
Hi all,
Since I got my 222 back from being rebuilt (it runs great), i'm not
too impressed with the sound. Just how good or HI-FI are these
supposed to sound (as compared to other early stereo jukes, any
mfgr.)? Forget that I replaced the speakers...just how can this juke
be described as Hi-Fi when it only has 2 woofers in it? The mono
models before and the stereo models after have multi speaker systems.
Seems to me seeburg should have put in tweeters...there's plenty of
room. My main complaint (and I have coaxials in there now) that
(depending on the vintage of record) the sound can sound good (most
50's and 60's records), but alot of modern (80's-90's) records sound
to midrangy...not enough bass or good hi's. The bass is too muddy on
the highest position, so it's on the click just below max
bass...treble is about 1/2 way (pos. 4 or 5 out of 6). Just doesn't
sound that great for me. I've tried different T needle sets to varying
degrees of quality. What's left to try? (I haven't tried sapphire yet,
but the diamonds are expensive enough). I really liked the sound of a
wurly 2300 several years ago...lots of juke bass punch, which is
lacking in the 222....no juke punch/ sound. I guess I could reinstall
the original woofers. how does an AY or Q sound..they use the same amp
don't they? I'm also running 6CZ5's (with the socket mod)instead of
6973's, would that make a difference? Thank you for the input, Rick.

Thanks Ken G for the reply I may try the originals again and a set
of 6973's. Rick.


(Ken G.) wrote in message ...
I restored 2... AY160`s they do have somewhat the same amp than the
222, same outputs but the 222 has way more parts in it .
One had the 2973`s the other i converted to 5CZ5`s .
Both machines sounded much like you explain your 222 ... just
``average`` , my Seeburg G blows them away .

For some reason the original speakers sounded better bass wise . I had
the one AY in my garage for a long time and if i stood in one place in
the room i could hear nice deep bass .
One option would be to add a new free standing sub woofer to the 222 and
add 2 small tweeters right in front of the original woofers .
I have noticed many older records just dont have very good bass .

Maybe someone knows of a cartridge change that would help ?

The mid 60`s solid state seeburgs had pretty good bass .

Hi Rich,
Thank you for the reply in the NG (nice site...my wife likes the
Panther). OK, here's what I've done to the 222 to try and improve the
sound (before the amp was rebuilt, but it didn't seem to matter):
Besides trying several different sets of T needles to find a supplier
that sounds ok, I replaced the original full range speakers (still
have them just in case) with 12" coaxials, but they are 8 ohm wheras
the originals were 16 ohm....does that matter? I also (with socket
mod) replaced the 6973's with 6cz5's (don't remember why...I think
most, if not all were missing or bad), so I went with a cheaper
replacement (maybe got what I payed for?). Is there a difference in
sound quality between the 2 types? if so, I would like to buy a set of
4 of your used (I assume tested good) 6973's. How much with shipping
to 91761? Looking at the responses on the NG, I may also reinstall the
original 12 inchers and see how they sound with the rebuilt amp and
the 2 types of tubes (not able to use the twin remote speakers as my
wife doesn't want them in the living room, so the juke must stand on
it's own...hence the coaxial replacements. Not sure I found your blurb
on your site, unless it was the notes section with your mods. Any help
would be great. Please email me the price for the tubes with shipping.
Thank you, Rick.

Hi Charlie,
It sounded 50's which was ok for records of that era (they sounded
pretty good), but sounded basy/muddy (no hi's at all) for the newer
records which is mostly what will be playing on this (I have records
from the 50's-2000's, mainly 70's and 80's). I just figured I could
upgrade to modern speakers that matched electrically (almost...the
originals were 16 ohms, the new ones are 8, but same wattage rating,
25 watts)so I could have 50's styling, but modern sound to match the
bulk of the records that will be played on this...guess not, huh?
"That's my story and i'm sticking to it" Rick.




(Charlie Maier) wrote in message . com...
How did it sound with the original speakers? What you installed may be
incorrect for the juke. Orignal speakers are considered full range, as
used in guitar amps. These are not woofers. If you installed woofers
you loose that midrange. Much better to repair or re-cone original
speakers. Seeburg paid their enginers a lot of money to match those
speakers to that amp and cabinet. For best sound, hook up external
speakers. This will also give you the true stereo effect and you can
crank it up and not have to wory about cabinet rattles.

I don't know about your 222 but my 220 sounds great!!!!!!
"Rick Force" wrote in message
om...
Hi all,
Since I got my 222 back from being rebuilt (it runs great), i'm not
too impressed with the sound. Just how good or HI-FI are these
supposed to sound (as compared to other early stereo jukes, any
mfgr.)? Forget that I replaced the speakers...just how can this juke
be described as Hi-Fi when it only has 2 woofers in it? The mono
models before and the stereo models after have multi speaker systems.
Seems to me seeburg should have put in tweeters...there's plenty of
room. My main complaint (and I have coaxials in there now) that
(depending on the vintage of record) the sound can sound good (most
50's and 60's records), but alot of modern (80's-90's) records sound
to midrangy...not enough bass or good hi's. The bass is too muddy on
the highest position, so it's on the click just below max
bass...treble is about 1/2 way (pos. 4 or 5 out of 6). Just doesn't
sound that great for me. I've tried different T needle sets to varying
degrees of quality. What's left to try? (I haven't tried sapphire yet,
but the diamonds are expensive enough). I really liked the sound of a
wurly 2300 several years ago...lots of juke bass punch, which is
lacking in the 222....no juke punch/ sound. I guess I could reinstall
the original woofers. how does an AY or Q sound..they use the same amp
don't they? I'm also running 6CZ5's (with the socket mod)instead of
6973's, would that make a difference? Thank you for the input, Rick.