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45 RPM Mechanisms - Which ones were better?



 
 
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  #11  
Old December 20th 03, 07:28 PM
Tony Miklos
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Jjmscf wrote:
Referring to Rockolas again.Maybe you never heard a Supersound on up Rockola.


Yes, I heard them when they were new. It just didn't turn me on. I
guess you have to keep in mind that we all don't hear things the same,
all our *equalizers* in our ears are on slightly different settings.


I
have to admit the 1972 Rockala 450 I fixed for my boss just doesn't have the
punch that some other jukeboxes have.But this Supersound is awesome.The highs
aren't muddy though you don't want it as crisp as your home stereo to give away
all the scratchiness of a 45 that's been played 100 times or more.The bass is
just awesome.It's got separate chamber for the woofers.The only problem is my
Rockola is on the wall next to the kitchen and when I play"Oye Como Va" by
Santana it seems to hit the resonant frequency of the pots and pans under the
sink...lol


"Oye Como Va"! Love that song. I wish I had the free 45 from my
childhood. It was a thin flexible record that came with my little
brothers new record player (with psychedelic lights that flashed to the
music). It only had a song on one side. I didn't even know who Santana
was but I knew I loved that song! Do you know what year it came out? I
was trying to figure out how old I was when I first fell in love with
that song.


None of the U.S. made Wurlitzers ever used a magnetic only the German
ones.Rockola started using a magnetic cartridge made by Shure I think in the
late 60's.The 50's mono Wurlitzers used the Cobra.If you ever hope to get
better sound out of them they need to be converted to ceramic or magnetic
though magnetic is more difficult with tone arm balance and tripping at the end
of the record and will require a preamp.


A properly working Cobra sounds excellent! No need to change a thing!
They are very touchy and everything has to be perfect, but damn, when
they are set up right, they sound great! Those are the only amps I ever
have to turn the bass and treble way down on.


--
Tony
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  #12  
Old December 20th 03, 08:00 PM
Tony Miklos
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Philip Nasadowski wrote:

In article ,
Tony Miklos wrote:


Maybe I got all the dud Rock-Ola's? Or maybe you got one of the few
good ones? Who knows.



The newer ones aren't that bad. The 30's 40's 50's? YUCK. I've never
heard a good sounding Rock-Ola, though IMHO, the Seeburg A is the worst
of the era. The Rock-Olas just seem to always be missing something,
though.


As far as the sound, well a juke that old may
not sound as good as one much newer, but IMHO, put a 1985 Wurlitzer next
to a 1985 Rock-Ola, and the wurlitzer wins hands down. Actually, that
goes for most any year jukes, the Wurlitzers were almost always on top
with sound quality.



Put a 2204 next to an AMI F I have, the AMI blows the Wurlitzer out
of the basement, easily. Though I might have a bad Cobra


Does the Wurly sound real tinny? Way to much treble? Lot's of the new
ones come like that and you have to customize them for good sound. Also
there are a lot of old "bad" ones that if the needle isn't worn can be
fixed. Holding it upside down you should see some white stuff between
the cartridge housing and the metal part connected to the needle. It is
to dampen the movement in there. In the newer ones I think the "white
stuff" is just white lube. In the original ones it seems it was some
type of spongy stuff? I've cleaned out many and added a heavier grease
in there and they sound great. Still it's trial and error. To much
treble and you need more, or heavier grease, loss of treble and you have
too much or too heavy. If you are where the temperature really
fluctuates, use a synthetic grease. I have some but haven't tried it
yet. I also got a big medical syringe to shoot the grease in there more
easily.


I'd put the AMI F and G near the top of the list, though Wurlitzer and
Seeburg had some nice ones too. I've heard that the V is amazing, some
of the early stereo Seeburgs are real nice. Seeburg, AMI and some
Wurlitzers used magnetic pickups, Rock-Ola and other Wurlitzers used the
less good ceramic types.


I don't know if it's my ears or wurlitzers amps make up for the ceramic
cartridges, but even comparing some of the ceramic cartridge wurlitzers
to others with a magnetic cartridge, I still say the Wurlitzer usually
comes out ahead.

By the way, I did have my hearing tested not long ago and it's holding
up pretty well! :-) Like I said the the other post, we all don't hear
the same, so sometimes it comes down to a matter of personal preference.

--
Tony
  #13  
Old December 20th 03, 10:50 PM
Jjmscf
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"Oye Como Va" came out in 1971.I have the Columbia Hall of Fame 45 with "Black
Magic Woman" on the other side.Both sides get played frquently.The L.P. was
"Abraxis".You know if I select b side first and a side last with no other
records selected it's the same order as the album except for the gap to wait
for the Rockola to cycle to the other side.On the album "Black Magic Woman"
goes right into "Oye Como Va"
Won't Cobra's ruin stereo records?
My problem is I'm not lucky enough to have all original mono records from the
50's in there.Even if the recording's mono most reissues are the delicate newer
vinyl with narrower grooves that can't handle the heavy tracking pressure and
low compliance of a Cobra.The tone seemed ok but I heard a distortion like worn
records when playing brand new reissue records and after a few plays they had
white dust on them,a sure sign they were wearing down fast.Tried 3 different
Cobras,still it seemed to be ruining the newer records.The records when tried
on my stereo or Rockola had the same distortion confirming this.(In case your
asking I checked tonearm balance and pressure).I just opted out of the Cobra
and went ceramic.It's got decent sound this way and the new 45s are happy in
there just the Rockola seems to have more powerful bass and better highs.Of
course the 2150 doesn't have a tweeter.I found one from a 2104 I'm going to put
in there as soon as I have it reconed.Maybe my woofers need redoing too.
  #14  
Old December 20th 03, 11:26 PM
Tony Miklos
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Tony P wrote:

IMHO, the seeburg was king until they left...but that R-84 or so
onward rowe was pretty damn good. I've parted out probabally 75 of
those and I only found 2 or 3 that were worn to the point of abusing
records or causing major problems at all. A tonewheel as means of
'finding itself" is a hell of an idea..just look at how ABS works on
cars!


You lost me there? And I wish I had a switch to turn my ABS OFF!
  #16  
Old December 21st 03, 05:15 AM
Tony P
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You lost me there? And I wish I had a switch to turn my ABS OFF!

Tony,
I think you are asking how the basic ABS system works.

Each wheel on your car has a tonewheel (steel wheel with many teeth on
it) just like the digital rowe's have on the record carousel. There is
an optical pickup on each wheel that senses each wheel's speed upon
application of the brakes, as is the black U shaped on on the rowe
mech. If any one of the wheels stops moving on your car, the abs pump
comes on and pulsates the pressure to get the wheel out of lockup and
distribute pressure to the wheels that can help the car stop.

The abs computer attempts to equalize all wheel speeds by distributing
the brake pressure to the wheels that need (or can handle) it upon
hard deceleration.

I greatly simplified it, but the whole idea is that the pickup from
the wheel and the pickup from the record carousel are bacically the
same deal. There are no "wear items" to wear out. They can only break
off if struck by something. Highly unlikely on a record mech like a
rowe, but possible on a car. I have never seen the pickup break off on
a car, but I have seen wires get sliced.

ABS is a miracle in 95% of emergency braking situations. It can be a
nightmare on a road that is a washboard, or bouncy. The computer goes
ape **** trying to divide the pressure.

Another crazy abs fact is that on dry, flat pavement, the computer can
pulse the pedal 17 times per second. Try doing that with your foot!!

Tony
  #17  
Old December 21st 03, 02:47 PM
Tony P
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KLR wrote in message . ..

what do you mean by "tonewheel as a means of finding itself" ?


See the above message, or basically, there is no pinbank or other
mechanical means for the juke to select a certain record. It's all
done by elecronic "waves" or non-contact means.

Less parts to wear out...or break...or stick...or cause grief.

Tony
  #18  
Old December 21st 03, 09:26 PM
Ken G.
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Interesting topic! I have only worked on seeburgs and one Wurlitzer
dating from 1965 and older .
As for mech & record treatment the seeburgs are very good although the
record does wipe against the record rack to some degree each time it
goes in & out
as for needle ware it depends on the cartridge you use . The red head is
real hard on records .

The only Wurlitzer i have touched is a 1250 that plays 45`s this has
got to be the best on handling records they sit in the trays and dont
scrape anything .
The cartridge in this is a cobra and the tone arm can be adjusted for
tracking pressure . Good new sharp needles are a must in these .

As for sound quality i agree its what YOU like . I am not interested in
heavy bass anymore . I own a seeburg G and the Wurlitzer 1250 .
Depending on the age of records they both sound real good . most used
50`s music records lack heavr bass . If i use 70`s records the bass is
heavy .

The best sounding juke i owned was the seeburg PAFUE or something like
that with the ``disco`` theme & blue pictures . very heavy bass and nice
all around sound .

  #20  
Old December 22nd 03, 06:35 AM
Tony Miklos
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Tony P wrote:
You lost me there? And I wish I had a switch to turn my ABS OFF!

Tony,
I think you are asking how the basic ABS system works.

Each wheel on your car has a tonewheel (steel wheel with many teeth on
it) just like the digital rowe's have on the record carousel. There is
an optical pickup on each wheel that senses each wheel's speed upon
application of the brakes, as is the black U shaped on on the rowe
mech. If any one of the wheels stops moving on your car, the abs pump
comes on and pulsates the pressure to get the wheel out of lockup and
distribute pressure to the wheels that can help the car stop.

The abs computer attempts to equalize all wheel speeds by distributing
the brake pressure to the wheels that need (or can handle) it upon
hard deceleration.

I greatly simplified it, but the whole idea is that the pickup from
the wheel and the pickup from the record carousel are bacically the
same deal. There are no "wear items" to wear out. They can only break
off if struck by something. Highly unlikely on a record mech like a
rowe, but possible on a car. I have never seen the pickup break off on
a car, but I have seen wires get sliced.

ABS is a miracle in 95% of emergency braking situations. It can be a
nightmare on a road that is a washboard, or bouncy. The computer goes
ape **** trying to divide the pressure.

Another crazy abs fact is that on dry, flat pavement, the computer can
pulse the pedal 17 times per second. Try doing that with your foot!!

Tony


Thanks, I know pretty much about how ABS works. Except I thought they
use eddy sensors. It's hard to imagine optic sensors staying clean
enough to work? I also know that there have been studies evaluating the
same vehicles with and without ABS. It seems ABS works miracles on a
test track, but in real life, there is little or no difference in the
accident statistics. And yes, I've been on bumpy roads attempting a
quick stop! Without a doubt the ABS makes the stopping distance
further. Also on a road close to my home there is a steep downgrade,
often with cinders to skid on. Again, the ABS sucks in this situation.
When I first bought my most recent van (2000 chevy 1 ton) I tested the
antilocks in a wet parking lot by trying to lock up the brakes, and then
making a turn. You would think the ABS would help it turn instead of
skidding in a straight line, but that was hardly the case. :-( As far
as how they work on a dry smooth road, yes they pulse great then. But
compare the coefficient of traction of a locked up tire on a dry road to
one that is pulsing and you will see there is hardly a difference. OK,
that's enough of my Anti-ABS rant!

Now back on topic, I think all the german made wurlitzers use an optic
sensor to keep track of where the record carousel is at. Even Rock-Ola
started in the late 70's, I guess around the same time Rowe did? I'm
not sure who was first in that technology.

--
Tony M
 




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