The joys of numismatic research

Anybody have some "knowledge finds" they'd like to share. With me,
acquiring information and knowledge is every bit as rewarding as
acquiring coins.

Case in point. Last night, in finishing reading through information
from articles and books I've collected but hadn't yet gotten to, I
uncovered some *really* interesting stuff about a coin I bought about
a year ago, which before I knew relatively little about. It's an
ancient coin, an Athenian Owl, but it's not one of the common
classical Owls typically dated 449-413 BC (interesting coins too) but
rather a rarer archaic Owl that preceded these. I bought it
unattributed from Harlan Berk, who had just bought it himself a couple
of hours earlier, at a major coin show. Because of this, I got a very
good deal on the coin. But I had some work to do. g

Here's a pic of it, only a middling pic (too much glare, which
obscures some of the detail) -- I need to retake the pic at some
point:

http://rg.cointalk.org/misc/Archaic_Owl.html

The coin grades aVF, a decent enough grade (for my purposes) with
these coins, which are often badly beat up, even those illustrated in
reference sources. Specimens are available in nicer condition, but
prices can soar into the stratosphere (five figures).

I knew of course that the coin was an archaic Owl, but in looking
through Sear and Wildwinds I couldn't further attribute it with any
confidence. Last night I finished reading through, and looking very
carefully at, the most widely used references for these coins,
including Starr's Athenian Coinage, Kraay's Archaic Coins of Athens,
and Seltman's Athens: Its History and Coinage Before the Persian
Invasion. But the most useful source, and the one that nailed the
attribution of my coin (persistence pays!), was Price and Waggoner's
Archaic Greek Coinage: The Asyut Hoard, which documents in exquisite
detail a hoard of about 900 Greek silver coins dug up by Egyptian
workmen in 1969.

The very unusual thing about this hoard is that despite the irrational
laws in source countries, most of the coins in this hoard were
documented. Typically coins dug up in source countries are secretly
ferreted out of the country and into the market via shady characters
in source countries and European middlemen without any knowledge about
the find spots and so on being preserved. These Asyut Hoard coins
reached the market the same way, but somehow information about their
finds spot and the coins in the hoard was preserved, with photos made,
which furthered the state of numismatic knowledge. No mention was made
in the book about why or how this happened with this particular hoard.
Almost always stuff like this, close to the source, is hush-hush.
Lives have been lost, literally, when finders and others have been
exposed.

By reading this book, I was able to determine that my coin was in all
likelihood minted c. 490-482 BC. It's one of the finest styled of the
archaic Owl coinage, with Athena having a relatively small head, long
neck, and fine overall features compared with other archaic Owls. But
here's the really interesting part. This coin, part of a large
emission of the same variety, was in all likelihood minted to build up
the Hellenic navy in preparation for the anticipated Persian invasion,
which would take place in 480 BC and which would determine the
subsequent course of Western history. The Greeks defeated the Persian
fleet at Salamis in a battle that has been called the "supreme
confrontation between East and West," between despotism and individual
freedoms (Hanson).

Afterward, the Greeks for the first time formed a formal allegiance of
the various Greek city-states (the Delian League) and were able to
continue their unprecedented experimentation with individualism and
democracy. This ushered in the golden age of ancient Greece, the
thinking of men such as Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle, and the
genesis of Western science, philosophy, and civilization.

Back to coins. g. I was also able to attribute my coin as Sear Greek
1842v. (for variety), Seltman Group Gi, Price and Waggoner Group IVg,
Szego 3.

Fun stuff.

--

Email: (delete "remove this")

Coin Collecting: Consumer Protection Guide: http://rg.ancients.info/guide
Glomming: Coin Connoisseurship: http://rg.ancients.info/glom
Bogos: Counterfeit Coins: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos

Your story was a fantastic read. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Thanks for
taking the time to share...

My latest purchase:
http://www.cngcoins.com/coin.asp?ITE...TEM_ENLARGED=1

-DrZ

"Reid Goldsborough" wrote in message
...
Anybody have some "knowledge finds" they'd like to share. With me,
acquiring information and knowledge is every bit as rewarding as
acquiring coins.

Case in point. Last night, in finishing reading through information
from articles and books I've collected but hadn't yet gotten to, I
uncovered some *really* interesting stuff about a coin I bought about
a year ago, which before I knew relatively little about. It's an
ancient coin, an Athenian Owl, but it's not one of the common
classical Owls typically dated 449-413 BC (interesting coins too) but
rather a rarer archaic Owl that preceded these. I bought it
unattributed from Harlan Berk, who had just bought it himself a couple
of hours earlier, at a major coin show. Because of this, I got a very
good deal on the coin. But I had some work to do. g

Here's a pic of it, only a middling pic (too much glare, which
obscures some of the detail) -- I need to retake the pic at some
point:

http://rg.cointalk.org/misc/Archaic_Owl.html

The coin grades aVF, a decent enough grade (for my purposes) with
these coins, which are often badly beat up, even those illustrated in
reference sources. Specimens are available in nicer condition, but
prices can soar into the stratosphere (five figures).

I knew of course that the coin was an archaic Owl, but in looking
through Sear and Wildwinds I couldn't further attribute it with any
confidence. Last night I finished reading through, and looking very
carefully at, the most widely used references for these coins,
including Starr's Athenian Coinage, Kraay's Archaic Coins of Athens,
and Seltman's Athens: Its History and Coinage Before the Persian
Invasion. But the most useful source, and the one that nailed the
attribution of my coin (persistence pays!), was Price and Waggoner's
Archaic Greek Coinage: The Asyut Hoard, which documents in exquisite
detail a hoard of about 900 Greek silver coins dug up by Egyptian
workmen in 1969.

The very unusual thing about this hoard is that despite the irrational
laws in source countries, most of the coins in this hoard were
documented. Typically coins dug up in source countries are secretly
ferreted out of the country and into the market via shady characters
in source countries and European middlemen without any knowledge about
the find spots and so on being preserved. These Asyut Hoard coins
reached the market the same way, but somehow information about their
finds spot and the coins in the hoard was preserved, with photos made,
which furthered the state of numismatic knowledge. No mention was made
in the book about why or how this happened with this particular hoard.
Almost always stuff like this, close to the source, is hush-hush.
Lives have been lost, literally, when finders and others have been
exposed.

By reading this book, I was able to determine that my coin was in all
likelihood minted c. 490-482 BC. It's one of the finest styled of the
archaic Owl coinage, with Athena having a relatively small head, long
neck, and fine overall features compared with other archaic Owls. But
here's the really interesting part. This coin, part of a large
emission of the same variety, was in all likelihood minted to build up
the Hellenic navy in preparation for the anticipated Persian invasion,
which would take place in 480 BC and which would determine the
subsequent course of Western history. The Greeks defeated the Persian
fleet at Salamis in a battle that has been called the "supreme
confrontation between East and West," between despotism and individual
freedoms (Hanson).

Afterward, the Greeks for the first time formed a formal allegiance of
the various Greek city-states (the Delian League) and were able to
continue their unprecedented experimentation with individualism and
democracy. This ushered in the golden age of ancient Greece, the
thinking of men such as Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle, and the
genesis of Western science, philosophy, and civilization.

Back to coins. g. I was also able to attribute my coin as Sear Greek
1842v. (for variety), Seltman Group Gi, Price and Waggoner Group IVg,
Szego 3.

Fun stuff.

--

Email: (delete "remove this")

Coin Collecting: Consumer Protection Guide: http://rg.ancients.info/guide
Glomming: Coin Connoisseurship: http://rg.ancients.info/glom
Bogos: Counterfeit Coins: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 17:32:24 -0500, "DoctorZ" wrote:

Your story was a fantastic read. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Thanks for
taking the time to share...

My latest purchase:
http://www.cngcoins.com/coin.asp?ITE...TEM_ENLARGED=1

I'm tempted to say something nice about your new purchase because of
your nice words to me. But I have to be honest here. Your coin is
spectacular, and I'm not saying that just to be nice. g Really.

Even though these coins aren't my area, here's what I like about it:
1) It's gold, and it gold has a timeless allure. 2) It's beautifully
toned for a gold coin, with the darker recesses nicely accentuating
the coin's age. 3) It's big, very big, for a gold coin, at 39 mm, and
though undoubtedly thin at 8.65 grams, the thinness doesn't strike me
as detracting from the coin's dimensional impressiveness. 4) Its style
is very cool, very kingly, very royal, both obverse and reverse. 5)
There are no unaesthetic indications of it's being ex-jewelry, and
though I don't know the market for these coins, as ex-jewelry, you
undoubtedly got a deal on it. 6) As a VF, all of the design elements
are present, and the coin's moderate wear also doesn't detract from
the impressiveness of the design. 7) The history is very cool -- a
quick search indicates that James I was the guy who sponsored the King
James Bible -- it's named after him -- and James I had some
interesting ideas about the divine rights of kings.

Congrats on your purchase. Can I have it?

--

Email: (delete "remove this")

Coin Collecting: Consumer Protection Guide: http://rg.ancients.info/guide
Glomming: Coin Connoisseurship: http://rg.ancients.info/glom
Bogos: Counterfeit Coins: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos

Reid wrote:

"The history is very cool -- a quick search indicates that James I was the guy
who sponsored the King James Bible -- it's named after him -- and James I had
some
interesting ideas about the divine rights of kings."


Are you SERIOUS?


Anka ---- tell me something I -don't- know

(Ankaaz) wrote:
Reid wrote:
... James I was the guy who sponsored the King James Bible...
... interesting ideas about the divine rights of kings."

Are you SERIOUS?
Anka ---- tell me something I -don't- know

Now, now... a little Christian caritas required you to allow him to
make sure that it was not James II, just in case... I agree that it
is easy to assume that he did not have a clue until he googled it, but
patience means suffering, which we all do gladly to save the lost.

The greater transgression was the complete baloney about Athenian
democracy and the Delian League and Aristotle. He reminds me of the
couple in "My Fellow Americans" who were passionate about their
patriotism despite the hard knocks they took from their government,
but who lost the details of American history somewhere in the 10th
grade. They never heard of Gutzon Borglum and he never heard of
Aspasia.

Michael
Polyphemos lived on Sicily

Michael E. Marotta wrote:

"Now, now... a little Christian caritas required you to allow him to
make sure that it was not James II, just in case... I agree that it
is easy to assume that he did not have a clue until he googled it, but
patience means suffering, which we all do gladly to save the lost."



Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.


Anka ---- have you read God's Secretaries by Nicholson?

Now, now... a little Christian caritas required you to allow him to
make sure that it was not James II, just in case... I agree that it
is easy to assume that he did not have a clue until he googled it, but
patience means suffering, which we all do gladly to save the lost.


Hammered coins ceased to be produced in 1662, and milled coins finally
took over. James II reigned 1685-1688 so all his coins would thus be
milled, so Reid was right. Talking of James II, his gold coins look a
little more like this...

http://www.tclayton.demon.co.uk/pics/hsov.html


Sylvester.

Specialising in Sixpences 1674-1694 and King Stephen pennies 1135-54.

Michael E. Marotta wrote:

(Ankaaz) wrote:

Reid wrote:
... James I was the guy who sponsored the King James Bible...
... interesting ideas about the divine rights of kings."


Are you SERIOUS?
Anka ---- tell me something I -don't- know


Now, now... a little Christian caritas required you to allow him to
make sure that it was not James II, just in case... I agree that it
is easy to assume that he did not have a clue until he googled it, but
patience means suffering, which we all do gladly to save the lost.

The greater transgression was the complete baloney about Athenian
democracy and the Delian League and Aristotle. He reminds me of the
couple in "My Fellow Americans" who were passionate about their
patriotism despite the hard knocks they took from their government,
but who lost the details of American history somewhere in the 10th
grade. They never heard of Gutzon Borglum and he never heard of
Aspasia.

Michael
Polyphemos lived on Sicily

I thought it was James VI who commissioned the bible thing.........(?)

Sadly, he was a Scot and we can't be having that in relation to
`English' history now could we?

Mind you he did have a bit part to play in shaping `English'
history....but unlike Scottish history, my knowledge of 16th / 17th
century `English' history is terribly vague, and I need to be told who
it was who commissioned the KJV bible...... because it is `cool'.

I am also led to believe that James had some interesting ideas about the
divine rights of kings? Would I be right in going along with that do you
think?....I wonder what those interesting ideas could possibly be?

IM

Reid Goldsborough wrote:

SNIP
7) The history is very cool -- a
quick search indicates that James I was the guy who sponsored the King
James Bible -- it's named after him -- and James I had some
interesting ideas about the divine rights of kings.
--

Email: (delete "remove this")

There is no way that you believe this.... It is a joke, Right?
Roscoe

In article ,
Roscoe wrote:

Reid Goldsborough wrote:

SNIP
7) The history is very cool -- a
quick search indicates that James I was the guy who sponsored the King
James Bible -- it's named after him -- and James I had some
interesting ideas about the divine rights of kings.
--

Email: (delete "remove this")

There is no way that you believe this.... It is a joke, Right?
Roscoe

I don't see the problem here. From the inside flap of the Nelson Bibles
version of the King James; Reissue edition (June 1, 1982 ):

"Shortly after inheriting the throne of England in the midst of violent
religious strife, King James I called together the country's leading
churchmen and theologians at Hampton Court, "for the hearing, and for
the determining, of things pretended to be amiss in the Church."

Out of that conference came the memorable decision to commission a new
translation of the Holy Scriptures. King James I eagerly approved the
idea in the hope that this new translation might help avert civil war by
uniting the religious factions within his country. The uniform
translation, since called the "King James Version," dramatically
affected the course of development of the English-speaking world.


.............

What am I missing?

Scot Kamins
---
***Collecting Euro's (for no apparent reason)***