Innovation in Fountain Pens

On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 23:34:03 GMT, "Mark P. Anderle"
wrote:

Just to answer your metal question the material is Nitinol, which stands for
a mix of nickel and titanium that was developed at the Naval Ordinance Lab.
It has a "memory" that is unbelievable. The wires used to guide angioplasty
balloons is made of Nitinol and you can tie it in a knot and the knot comes
out without a kink in the wire.

Mark

cool. Thanks for the info, Mark. seems like there wouldn't be any
constraints then for using it in pen nibs. but since I've never made
my own nib... I'm only guessing. :P

Thanks,
kcat

On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 11:55:35 -0600, kcat
wrote:

Thanks for your coments.

an alloy that supposedly has "memory."

"nitinol" - a solution that has been looking for applications for a
great many years.

Secondly, the fountain pen market is inherently conservative. It's an
unusual and to some extent inconvenient product, where the disposable
roller meets the needs of almost all users far more effectively,

I have to disagree on this - but only in that I would have said "meets
the needs of uneducated users"

No, my point is that almost none of us write much any more - even
those who do write at all. I use a fountain pen at home, and if
you're really lucky you might get a hand-written letter from me. But
it's never going to replace my word processor.

If people knew and understood how
much less pain they would suffer in using an FP

I rarely carry a fountain pen with me outside the house. Usually a
rollerball instead, simply because it writes more easily in a notebook
crushed into a moving vehicle seat, or when walking along.

My use of a fountain pen is now discretionary. I use it when I wish
to, when writing is a pleasure. There are fewer times when I _need_ to
write by hand, and when I do so, convenience and robustness is often
more significant than performance.

why
does that make them inferior and why is innovation so important?

The fountain pen could be better, and there's 50 years of unused
innovation sitting there. I think we can do better today (technically,
if not commercially).

I do wonder - it *sounds* like you view "flex" as an improvement on
"nails" WRT FP nibs.

I'm not sure - I'd like to, except that my own scrawl doesn't make use
of it. I'd love to be a decent calligrapher. Certainly the ability to
flex is a major part of what distinguishes nibbed pens from rollers.


--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods

Mark P. Anderle wrote:

Just to answer your metal question the material is Nitinol, which stands for
a mix of nickel and titanium that was developed at the Naval Ordinance Lab.
It has a "memory" that is unbelievable. The wires used to guide angioplasty
balloons is made of Nitinol and you can tie it in a knot and the knot comes
out without a kink in the wire.

Mark

Good answer. One minor correction---It is Naval Ordnance Lab. Although
they did deal with the "laws" of physics, they were mostly concerned
with the research and engineering associated with Navy and Marine Corps
weapons or "ordnance." It was a true icon in the technical community
and pioneered many items that became of great use in the non-military
world. One of the original founders of digital computing called the NOL
home. Some of the early research on decontamination of hydrocarbon
pollutants using bacteria was done there. It was located on a beautiful
campus in Silver Spring, Maryland, on the north side of the waschington,
DC, beltway. It was closed as part of the BRAC (Base Realignment and
Closure) process in the late '90s.

Reuben

On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 00:19:19 +0000, Andy Dingley
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 11:55:35 -0600, kcat
wrote:

No, my point is that almost none of us write much any more - even
those who do write at all. I use a fountain pen at home, and if
you're really lucky you might get a hand-written letter from me. But
it's never going to replace my word processor.

ah... see... I'm different that way but before "rediscovering" FPs
(and then discovering this lovely disease I have) I did rely mostly on
my word processor. You make a point I have found both amusing and a
little depressing: I subscribe to two writers' magazines and see FPs
or stylized FPs in ads and stories all the time. Yet I'm sure most
who read these mags wouldn't know what to do with an FP.

I rarely carry a fountain pen with me outside the house. Usually a
rollerball instead, simply because it writes more easily in a notebook
crushed into a moving vehicle seat, or when walking along.

hm... well... my feeling is just the opposite - but again - for me
these are more than just tools and more than just jewelry - they are
"medical devices" But my use when I'm out is limited to lists on 3x5
cards or signing receipts. which takes no more effort with an FP than
with any other device. Even those *(&#$*&#ing thumb print scanners
require more effort - both attempts at using these in local grocery
stores failed miserably. Walking - I don't generally try to walk and
chew gum at the same time - much less write. :-)

I do wonder - it *sounds* like you view "flex" as an improvement on
"nails" WRT FP nibs.

I'm not sure - I'd like to, except that my own scrawl doesn't make use
of it. I'd love to be a decent calligrapher. Certainly the ability to
flex is a major part of what distinguishes nibbed pens from rollers.

well.. i suppose to many it is. when you speak of Calligraphy - do
you mean brush calligraphy or a sort or edged pen calligraphy? I
separate (mentally though perhaps not properly) Calligraphy from
Spencerian or Copperplate and much prefer a rigid edged pen that will
give crisp lines. I wouldn't even attempt the lovely flourishes of
flexible artistic writing like Spencerian and it's ilk.

I suppose I just don't see anything in FPs that I consider a flaw (in
general - not speaking of specific brands/designs.) And I do consider
FPs to be superior to other pens in many ways. Certainly I'd get
upset if I was walking and writing (and chewing gum) and my pen spit
up all over my 3x5 card holder. But I'd get equally upset with a bp
or RB that decided to stop working entirely as well. So far, the only
"spit up" FPs I've had were vintage pens with sacs that had failed.
IMO, the sac issue has been addressed with piston fillers (look out -
if anyone else is actually reading this I could be in trouble...)

My biggest gripes with RBs is that their points wear very quickly
(weeks/months) compared to a good iridium-tipped FP (decades.) Others
have mentioned the "new" rollerballs that use FP ink and have
interchangeable nibs. But still - I don't typically buy an FP and
think "well, I better get 2 or 3 extra nibs because they wear out" *
while with RBs of any sort that is my first concern. Those pens are
nice - and I have 3 on my desk. Maybe this is an area where some
technology could really be applied and be useful even if it was never
noticed by the masses - an RB tip that didn't wear quickly in an RB
that was refillable.

anyway - interesting discussion....

KCat

*I do however buy extra nibs because I love variety - M200s Rule!

I think that the basic design of the fountain pen cannot be improved
upon. It is pretty much perfect. In principle fountain pens are very
durable, more durable than any other kind of pen, and putting new ink in
them is pretty easy, at least with modern and golden age fountain pens.
If you want a pen that can do tricks a fountain pen cannot do (like not
getting empty so fast), you shouldn't get a fountain pen but another
kind of pen (ballpen, rollerball) that meets your requirements.

So far I haven't found any other pen that writes as nice as a fountain
pen, and since I don't mind to open up an ink bottle to put new ink in
them, instead of throwing away an empty rollerball or ballpoint pen and
picking up a new one instead, I will keep on using fountain pens.

BTW I wouldn't say that fountain pens are a niche product...
Fountain pens can be bought in supermarkets, in every office supplies
stores and every shopping mall and lots of other places. They are
therefore a typical mass market product. Tens of millions of people
(maybe even more) in the 'civilized world' use them, often daily. That's
a huge market! It is a smaller market than the hundreds of millions
using ballpoints but it is still a mass market.

.... and I wouldn't say that there is no money to be made from
investment in research and development of niche products.
Niche products need just as much research and development as mass market
products, maybe even more... And there is plenty of money to made in
niches, often with larger profit margins and less marketing costs.

O.. And about people not using pens that much as they used to... Plenty
of people still do, otherwise there wouldn't be so many places where you
can buy pens. Pens are often very handy, much handier than palmtops and
computers for storing information. You don't have to turn them on and
wait for them to start up, they don't suffer from virusses, they are
very cheap, very fast (if you cannot type with ten fingers they are much
faster than a word processor on a gigahertz pentium or powerpc). Nothing
beats a pen for making notes, shopping lists, draft texts, corrections
on printouts, etc. etc. etc. etc.

Marten

Marten van de Kraats wrote:
SNIP
BTW I wouldn't say that fountain pens are a niche product...
Fountain pens can be bought in supermarkets, in every office supplies
stores and every shopping mall and lots of other places. They are
therefore a typical mass market product. Tens of millions of people
(maybe even more) in the 'civilized world' use them, often daily. That's
a huge market! It is a smaller market than the hundreds of millions
using ballpoints but it is still a mass market.

And maybe that is the real point -- advances in manufacturing
have made it possible to buy, for the cost of one or two
hamburgers, a pen that will write well and reliably. Maybe that
price point has always been covered -- but I think in a European
supermarket these days you could get a good pen for less than a
1940s dollar.

Michael

Michael Wright writes:

And maybe that is the real point -- advances in manufacturing have
made it possible to buy, for the cost of one or two hamburgers, a
pen that will write well and reliably. Maybe that price point has
always been covered -- but I think in a European supermarket these
days you could get a good pen for less than a 1940s dollar.

This summer I bought a Waterman cheapo "stylo plume" at a Carrefour
department store in France for 5 Euros. It looks like a clear
plastic version of the Phileas. It's an excellent writer.

On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 02:49:59 +0100, Marten van de Kraats
wrote:

I think that the basic design of the fountain pen cannot be improved
upon. snipperoo

woohoo! someone that agrees with me. It happens.

So far I haven't found any other pen that writes as nice as a fountain
pen, and since I don't mind to open up an ink bottle to put new ink in
them,

of for some - just slap in a new cartridge. Though I'm not wild about
cartridges m'self.

a huge market! It is a smaller market than the hundreds of millions
using ballpoints but it is still a mass market.

we tend to get a bit US/UK biased here I think - forgetting that there
are still places where FPs are still used daily in school and such.

products, maybe even more... And there is plenty of money to made in
niches, often with larger profit margins and less marketing costs.

we (hubby and I) sell niche s/w and I agree but any small business has
a low chance of surviving much less being successful. Fortunately,
ours has done both. IMO, by definition, a niche market is kept alive
by the small business-person. (as opposed to the small, business
person. :P

O.. And about people not using pens that much as they used to... Plenty
of people still do, otherwise there wouldn't be so many places where you
can buy pens.

Yet I agree with Andy to some extent here - I don't think most
journalists, writers, and so on that write daily in significant
amounts are using pens or pencils. Editing would possibly be an
exception. And I feel the "snail" has been done a great disservice by
email. Though *I* still write them, several of the people I write to,
never write back.

beats a pen for making notes, shopping lists, draft texts, corrections
on printouts, etc. etc. etc. etc.

well that's what *we* think. :-)

a huge market! It is a smaller market than the hundreds of millions
using ballpoints but it is still a mass market.

we tend to get a bit US/UK biased here I think - forgetting that there
are still places where FPs are still used daily in school and such.

I don't know how things are in the US/UK. It could very well be that
mainland Europans use more fountain pens than the Anglo Saxons. There is
certainly nothing exotic about fountain pens in this part of the world,
you can buy them everywhere from Paris to Warschau and from Stockholm to
Rome. I know for a fact that the Dutch use more ballpoints than fountain
pens, but there are still quite some fountain pen users here. Otherwise
there wouldn't be so much on offer in stores. I know for a fact that the
French use fountain pens quite a lot, which is pretty interesting
because Bic happens to be a French company too. I think Fountain pen
usage is probably pretty strong too in Germany. Both these countries
dominate the international fountain pen market. Companies like Waterman,
Pelikan and many others are based there. It could very well be that the
Spanish and the Italians also like using fountain pens, but I am not
sure about it. I know even less about the rest of Europe (Scandinavia,
Central and Eastern Europe). But like I said there is no place in Europe
where fountain pens are considered something exotic.

O.. And about people not using pens that much as they used to... Plenty
of people still do, otherwise there wouldn't be so many places where you
can buy pens.

Yet I agree with Andy to some extent here - I don't think most
journalists, writers, and so on that write daily in significant
amounts are using pens or pencils. Editing would possibly be an
exception. And I feel the "snail" has been done a great disservice by
email. Though *I* still write them, several of the people I write to,
never write back.

All writers use pens to some extent. Most of them mainly use word
processors, but quite a lot still use pens for draft texts. Journalists
are all word processor.

beats a pen for making notes, shopping lists, draft texts, corrections
on printouts, etc. etc. etc. etc.

well that's what *we* think. :-)

I don't think we are alone in this. Like I said, you can buy pens in
just about every super market. Mainly ball points of course, but
still... This is indicates a mass market. Super markets don't tend to
keep products in stock that don't sell well. Shops that do, normally
don't survive.

Marten

Marten van de Kraats writes:

I don't know how things are in the US/UK.

In the US, fountain pens are very rare. I manage to amaze some
cashier at least a couple of times a week. "Wow, what kind of pen is
that!?!" as I write a check (cheque).

It could very well be that mainland Europans use more fountain pens
than the Anglo Saxons. There is certainly nothing exotic about
fountain pens in this part of the world, you can buy them everywhere
from Paris to Warschau and from Stockholm to Rome. I know for a fact
that the Dutch use more ballpoints than fountain pens, but there are
still quite some fountain pen users here. Otherwise there wouldn't
be so much on offer in stores. I know for a fact that the French use
fountain pens quite a lot, which is pretty interesting because Bic
happens to be a French company too.

This past August I was in France to do the Paris-Brest-Paris bike
ride, which started/ended in the suburb of St. Quentin-en-Yvelines.
At the Carrefour department store, it was back-to-school time and
almost all the students were buying fountain pens. "Papa, j'ai
besoin de stylo plume" or something like that. But there were lots
of ballpoints, rollerballs, etc. in many of the same brands and
packaging that one sees at Awfus Max.