Needed: Ink Recommendations for Sheaffer Nonsense Fountain Pen!

On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 22:32:14 -0500, "Bluesea"
wrote:


"The Drunken Lord" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 21:10:28 -0500, "Bluesea"
wrote:


"MatthewK" wrote in message
...
On 2008-06-09, Bluesea wrote:

Thanks for helping me clarify my thoughts.

You're welcome. Discussion helps me, too.

Your last statement
about great pens from $3- $300(?) dollars is a good
generalization.

Isn't the thought of shelling out $300 for a single pen alarming? It
chokes
me. Yet, I have to be realistic - there are people who don't think twice
about dropping that kind of dough on a good user pen. Wait 'til you're out
of school and can afford a pen that costs over $40 .

What if you're not in school, have a good job and could afford a $300
pen, or a few of them, but think it's just a total waste of money when
you can buy one for less than $30 that will work as well.

Can a collection consist of a single pen?

Probably most everybody around here, including me, have a few more
than one. I've got a bunch of cheap sheaffers with italic points.
I'd probably have more pens, and maybe some more expensive ones,
except they don't come with italic points or stubs and it costs an arm
and a leg to get one ground, and then it might not be right.

I have ground a few nibs around here with mixed results. If you try
it, you've got to have superfine grit, like a white arkansas stone or
some super fine 2000 grit sandpaper.

I'm just not going to spend a bunch of money on pens. But I might be
making up for that with ink. I ain't one of those people who's got
one bottle of waterman's blue-black. But I sure as hell don't go to
the Swisher or Art Brown website and do some impulse buying.

This friend of mine--well, he's kind of a friend--lots of times we
don't get along--but he's got a thousand fountain pens, and I know
he's spent at least a thousand on some of these. He keeps most all of
em in the boxes they came in and hasn't even inked most of them. He
just takes em out from time to time and looks at em. This guy
recently published his first novel and finished his second one. He's
a millionaire and lives in this house that's bigger than Gracelands
(I've been to Gracelands and this guy's house is bigger than Elvis's),
and doesn't work and gets in his car and goes and rents some porn most
every day and whacks off, probably quite a few times. He's got some
kind of a connection at the porn store and gets this amateur stuff
shipped in. He says amateur stuff is the best stuff--which is people
making home movies, and selling it for like $20 a minute of film, or
maybe more. And he's miserable but has a thousand, more than a
thousand, fountain pens to brighten up his very dreary days, dreary
except for those brief moments of porn and self-induced orgasms.
What a life.

"The Drunken Lord" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 22:32:14 -0500, "Bluesea"
wrote:


"The Drunken Lord" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 21:10:28 -0500, "Bluesea"
wrote:


"MatthewK" wrote in message
...
On 2008-06-09, Bluesea wrote:

Thanks for helping me clarify my thoughts.

You're welcome. Discussion helps me, too.

Your last statement
about great pens from $3- $300(?) dollars is a good
generalization.

Isn't the thought of shelling out $300 for a single pen alarming? It
chokes
me. Yet, I have to be realistic - there are people who don't think twice
about dropping that kind of dough on a good user pen. Wait 'til you're
out
of school and can afford a pen that costs over $40 .

What if you're not in school, have a good job and could afford a $300
pen, or a few of them, but think it's just a total waste of money when
you can buy one for less than $30 that will work as well.

Can a collection consist of a single pen?

Probably most everybody around here, including me, have a few more
than one. I've got a bunch of cheap sheaffers with italic points.
I'd probably have more pens, and maybe some more expensive ones,
except they don't come with italic points or stubs and it costs an arm
and a leg to get one ground, and then it might not be right.

Have you tried to get nibs exchanged? Some companies offer a free nib
exchange for a new pen so you can get a nib you like. I think I've done it
with Cross and Parker - it's been awhile. I mean, I know I got new nibs from
them, but the reverse oblique I got from Parker might have been an extra
nib, not an exchange.

I have ground a few nibs around here with mixed results. If you try
it, you've got to have superfine grit, like a white arkansas stone or
some super fine 2000 grit sandpaper.

I'm just not going to spend a bunch of money on pens. But I might be
making up for that with ink. I ain't one of those people who's got
one bottle of waterman's blue-black.

I might be that type of person. I buy a few bottles in search of the perfect
shade and when I get it, that's all I care to use. I use the imperfect
shades just to use up the ink.

But I sure as hell don't go to
the Swisher or Art Brown website and do some impulse buying.

This friend of mine--well, he's kind of a friend--lots of times we
don't get along--but he's got a thousand fountain pens, and I know
he's spent at least a thousand on some of these. He keeps most all of
em in the boxes they came in and hasn't even inked most of them. He
just takes em out from time to time and looks at em.

He sounds like he collects to have and admire. I enjoy looking at my pens,
too, but if I can't use a pen, I have no interest in it. I have a few pens
that aren't comfortable for long writing sessions that have been relegated
back to their boxes. Since I could use them for short sessions, I haven't
been able to get rid of them.

This guy
recently published his first novel and finished his second one. He's
a millionaire and lives in this house that's bigger than Gracelands
(I've been to Gracelands and this guy's house is bigger than Elvis's),
and doesn't work and gets in his car and goes and rents some porn most
every day and whacks off, probably quite a few times. He's got some
kind of a connection at the porn store and gets this amateur stuff
shipped in. He says amateur stuff is the best stuff--which is people
making home movies, and selling it for like $20 a minute of film, or
maybe more. And he's miserable but has a thousand, more than a
thousand, fountain pens to brighten up his very dreary days, dreary
except for those brief moments of porn and self-induced orgasms.
What a life.

Interesting. As a novelist, however, how dreary is his life? He has to think
up plots and characters and such for his books, so his imagination must keep
him occupied when he's not admiring his pens or watching porn. Does he ever
write longhand, with one of his fountain pens?

--
~~Bluesea~~
Spam is great in musubi, but not in email.
Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.

"Deirdre Saoirse Moen" wrote in message
...
Bluesea wrote:

Isn't the thought of shelling out $300 for a single pen alarming? It
chokes
me. Yet, I have to be realistic - there are people who don't think twice
about dropping that kind of dough on a good user pen. Wait 'til you're
out
of school and can afford a pen that costs over $40 .

I've been thinking that I should raise the high end to $400 because of
inflation.

I went to Bittner's Visconti Sale this last weekend and bought three pens
(and some other stuff) and managed to keep my bill at around $900.

What I bought pen-wise:

1) Visconti Mazzi The Queen/Climbing the Sky frankenpen (I have the top
half
of one LE and the bottom half of the other) Upgrade to an 18k nib so I
could
have a factory stub.
2) Visconti Millenium Arc in Orange. I have the blue one, so now I have
two
of the three.
3) Visconti Van Gogh Midi in the new Evergreen. $146 (instead of $195)

The first was definitely a splurge and will use, but it's a desk pen, not
a
carry pen. The second is just gorgeous and I'm sure I'll use it a lot. The
third I'll use all the time.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/muhe-e/2578440809/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/muhe-e/2579276384/

So I guess I don't find it alarming, though I do tend to find my daily
writers are the ones I paid $100-$200 for (regardless of original street
price).

Those pens are attractive!

Yes, price paid can be quite different from retail price listed.

--
~~Bluesea~~
Spam is great in musubi, but not in email.
Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.

On 2008-06-10, The Drunken Lord wrote:
On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 00:24:48 +0000, MatthewK
wrote:


When we're using the term, "dumbass", we need to define what we mean
by the term, because there are ordinary dumbasses and there are "FPN
dumbasses". FPN dumbasses are dumbasses of a higher order and
magnitude--we're talking exponential--than an ordinary dumbass.


Thanks. I'm a run-of-the-mill dumbass who has to do something a
good 2-3 times before getting it right.




I wonder what they put in aurora to make it like that. You know,
there are recipes all over the place for iron gall inks, but as far as
I know, we don't have much of a clue about what Nathan and PR and
Diamine are putting in their inks other than aniline dyes.

Thats a good question with no good answer. I've read all the
ink chemistry postings I know of but past analine dye and water
no one really has a clue on what is in the modern inks. It's
almost alchemy to me.

There is a post in the archives here with a couple of guys
speculating about Nathan's ink chemistry. Someone thought it
was a special fabric industry dye but Nathan posted that he
tried it and it sucked.

matthew

On 2008-06-11, Bluesea wrote:

"MatthewK" wrote in message
...
On 2008-06-09, Bluesea wrote:

Thanks for helping me clarify my thoughts.

You're welcome. Discussion helps me, too.

Your last statement
about great pens from $3- $300(?) dollars is a good
generalization.

Isn't the thought of shelling out $300 for a single pen alarming? It chokes
me. Yet, I have to be realistic - there are people who don't think twice
about dropping that kind of dough on a good user pen. Wait 'til you're out
of school and can afford a pen that costs over $40 .



It doesn't seem alarming to me as much as I have more
interesting/pressing things to spend $300 dollars on. I was
thinking about buying a middle-end japanese pen not to long
ago but I decided to spend the $200 dollars on books instead.


That being said, my pen budget for the future won't be that
high for another few years probably...if ever.

matthew

On 2008-06-15, Brian Ketterling wrote:
In ,
MatthewK wrote:

Thanks, and I think your right about me presenting most of
my opinions as "foggy".

No, *thank you* -- I'm relieved not to have gotten into one of those
sumo-suit-wrestling threads where people endlessly "argue" past each other.
That happened, I think early last year, between BL and I over Quink.

I know the feeling and your welcome.



....the funny thing about all this is I've been making an
attempt to study the trivium lately. lol

And then on to the quadrivium? Seriously, I think that's pretty cool! I
assume _you're_ making the attempt because your school has never heard of
it.


Yes and Yes. I'm not an english major but many of my campus
friends are and they seem to be clueless about such things. I
think I'm missing a lot about not have a true liberal arts
education so I'm trying to give it to myself.

I think it is all Mortimer J. Adler's fault.

matthew

On 2008-06-10, Inspiring Discovery wrote:
On Jun 9, 3:37*pm, MatthewK wrote:



I can't speak for the others but an hour spent googling the vp
will give you a couple of results. How great the pen is. Why
doesn't it work well with this ink, why doesn't it work well *
with this converter, why is it so noisy?

Do you think that may be partially to do with the fact that someone
that shells out $300 might have slightly higher expectations than
someone who puts out $14.95?

sure.


The cheapest I've seen a new vp is $88-$160. I expect a pen
that costly to work without a hitch but the rest of the market
is satisfied with poor engineering and materials.

OK, if you buy a $7 parker and it doesn't write well, how many forums
are you going to run to in order to post your bad experience? Again,
expectations are higher in the upper price ranges, people will work
harder to get them fixed/replaced, disappointment runs deeper, and
forum posts increase. That does not mean people are satisfied with
poor engineering, not a bit. It means that you find more posts because
people paid more.

Well, a lot of people have bitched about the cheap pilot
vpens..at least the purple one on FPN.

Higher expectations for a $$$ writing instrument only go so
far, at a certian point you get into status/fetish and the pen
isn't used as a pen. I think the japanese makers might be the
exception: they make really expensive pens that will not be
used, yet write well.





I'm curious about how cheap ones have statistical quality controls
that more expensive ones don't have? Because they make more, that
means they are better quality? Well, not really.


Statistical Q.C. is for high volume/production runs. I'm sure
nibs and feed mechanisms apply here (in terms of japanese pens)
but not much else on more expensive pens. That is not to say
they are not quality...but statistical q.c. has no part in
handmade objects.

It is true that in the upper end fountain pens, there are a lot of
hand made components, and yes, handmade components aren't as likely to
be as consistent as machine made components. But this is why we have
pen retailers - we sit in front of our pen retailer, we fill the pen
with ink, we try the pen before we buy it, the retailer makes
adjustments (well a good retailer anyway).


I think any $200 or more pen should have some old guy at the
factory checking them. It doesn't seem to happen though.

Why should any expensive (insert brand) be shipped from the
factory with a scratchy nib or a clogged feed? That is
unacceptable to me.


Not all of us have b&m penshops within a days car trip. That
being said there are some online dealers that care enough about
their customers to check over a $10 pen.

matthew
"wish I had a penshop"

On Jun 20, 7:51*am, MatthewK wrote:
On 2008-06-10, Inspiring Discovery wrote:

On Jun 9, 3:37*pm, MatthewK wrote:

I can't speak for the others but an hour spent googling the vp
will give you a couple of results. How great the pen is. Why
doesn't it work well with this ink, why doesn't it work well *
with this converter, why is it so noisy?

Do you think that may be partially to do with the fact that someone
that shells out $300 might have slightly higher expectations than
someone who puts out $14.95?

sure.



The cheapest I've seen a new vp is $88-$160. I expect a pen
that costly to work without a hitch but the rest of the market
is satisfied with poor engineering and materials.

OK, if you buy a $7 parker and it doesn't write well, how many forums
are you going to run to in order to post your bad experience? Again,
expectations are higher in the upper price ranges, people will work
harder to get them fixed/replaced, disappointment runs deeper, and
forum posts increase. That does not mean people are satisfied with
poor engineering, not a bit. It means that you find more posts because
people paid more.

Well, a lot of people have bitched about the cheap pilot
vpens..at least the purple one on FPN.

Higher expectations for a $$$ writing instrument only go so
far, at a certian point you get into status/fetish and the pen
isn't used as a pen. I think the japanese makers might be the
exception: *they make really expensive pens that will not be
used, yet write well.


Of course - at about $400-$500 there is little else a pen manufacturer
can do to make it a better writing instrument. At that point it
becomes the workmanship of the barrel, whether there is craftsmanship
from an artist, the materials in use, etc.etc. All the manufacturers
make excellent expensive pens that write magnificently. Like I said
before, if you buy a pen that gets into the upper numbers, you should
have some service to go along with that purchase.



I'm curious about how cheap ones have statistical quality controls
that more expensive ones don't have? Because they make more, that
means they are better quality? Well, not really.

Statistical Q.C. is for high volume/production runs. I'm sure
nibs and feed mechanisms apply here (in terms of japanese pens)
but not much else on more expensive pens. That is not to say
they are not quality...but statistical q.c. has no part in
handmade objects.


Well, no - its for any repeated process, automated or hand-done.
Different places employ it differently. There is no inverse
relationship between the cost of an object and the degree to its
statistical control. There is also no relationship between the size of
a manufacturing run and the extent to which a manufacturer employs QC
techniques.

I do statistical QC on customer services processes, many of them very
low volume. Nothing automated.

What does happen in low-cost high-production manufacturing is that the
design of pens is made to be considerably more simplistic in an effort
to avoid manufacturing defects. On the one hand, it mean your pen
comes out of the box and writes exactly the same more frequently. If
that's all you want, great (but then again, why not buy a $1.95 gel
pen?). If you want something a bit more luxurious, you have to accept
that the design was not spec'd to manufacturing simplicity, but to
consumer demand. As such, there is the possibility of there being
flaws.



It is true that in the upper end fountain pens, there are a lot of
hand made components, and yes, handmade components aren't as likely to
be as consistent as machine made components. But this is why we have
pen retailers - we sit in front of our pen retailer, we fill the pen
with ink, we try the pen before we buy it, the retailer makes
adjustments (well a good retailer anyway).

I think any $200 or more pen should have some old guy at the
factory checking them. It doesn't seem to happen though.

Ever try to get ink completely out of a pen? If it was inked and tried
in the factory, it is no longer a new pen. There are people like me
that buy pens to write with, and there are people who buy pens to
collect and/or display and are very proud of the fact they are un-
inked.

In that price range, there is an expectation that the pen is very new.
Yes, I know - there are people that want their pens (and rightly so)
tested - thats what the retailer function is.

In article ,
Inspiring Discovery wrote:
On Jun 20, 7:51*am, MatthewK wrote:

I think any $200 or more pen should have some old guy at the
factory checking them. It doesn't seem to happen though.

Ever try to get ink completely out of a pen? If it was inked and tried
in the factory, it is no longer a new pen. There are people like me
that buy pens to write with, and there are people who buy pens to
collect and/or display and are very proud of the fact they are un-
inked.

In that price range, there is an expectation that the pen is very new.
Yes, I know - there are people that want their pens (and rightly so)
tested - thats what the retailer function is.

I find it strange, then, that Mont Blanc -- whom I think makes a lot of
pens which people buy solely for the status -- made such a big deal of
their "process" a short time ago. They put up a nice little thing on
their site with videos and all, especially emphasizing that each pen was
hand checked, inked, written with to test for proper feel, and so on. If
the collectors don't like their pens inked, I would think they would
also look unfavorably on Mont Blanc's marketing attempt here.

Aaron Hsu
--
+++++++++++++++ ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x))) +++++++++++++++
Email: | WWW: http://www.sacrideo.us
Scheme Programming is subtle; subtlety can be hard.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++

In ,
Bluesea wrote:

Since what touches paper is the tipping material, gold doesn't play as a
factor when we talk about smoothness.

The thing about gold nibs for me is that they're not as rigid as stainless
steel nibs. I think gold nibs give a more enjoyable writing experience...

In my case, I like my gold pen nibs as much as, or more than, my steel nibs
(depending on the pen), but I'm not sure why. It's not flexibility -- my
gold nibs, by and large, are as rigid as the steel ones -- and I don't
believe it's psychological. Maybe gold nibs just tend to receive more care
from the manufacturer.

Brian
--