photo-flo

I'm interested in wetting agents for ink, and have been exploring this
group's archives on the subject.

I really like the way liquid detergent increases the wetness of my
ink, but I don't like the increased foaming.

I found reference to Photo-flo as an alternative wetting agent.

On October 3, 2000, Adrien Lawrie said:
The beauty of this type of wetting agent is, it does not foam and has
no
smell. Iti is available from good photographic shops.

On December 30, 1998 however, Giovanni Abrate warned:
Do NOT use wetting agent for Photographic use (darkroom). Modern day
Photo
wetting agents contain alcohol (various types depending on brand) that
can
and will damage the pen. The best wetting product for inks is
"Teepol",
made by Shell. It is the main component on a variety of commercial
mild
detergents and shampoos. If you cannot find Teepol, use dishwashing
liquid
or neutral shampoo.

On Nov 1, 1996, Eric Voget wrote:
a friend recently told me that the ubiquitous wetting agent
Photoflo (KODAK) is reported to ruin certain plastics! Specifically,
he
told me that the JOBO company (they make photo processing machines for
semi-pro use) now warns against ever using Photoflo in their units.
They
say it cause permanent problems with their plastic reels.

To this Charles Sartwell replied:
There are scads, perhaps thousands, of surfactants (short for surface
active agents). Generally, each is intended for a specific purpose,
and
most are effective in very low or minute concentrations, say, a drop
in a
quart, gallon, or 10 gallons of water. Suffice it to say, that it is
easy
to use too much of a surfactant, particularly if one doesn't read a
label.

I wonder why JOBO Company would design processing equipment vulnerable
to
a common agent used in photo processing. Perhaps they want to sell a
surfactant carrying their own brand.

To which the late Frank Dubiel responded:
I have no reason to suspect the
Kodak agent would harm a pen--but this is a PRIME EXAMPLE of searching
for a more complicated soulation when a simple one will do. Every one
(hopefully) has a mild dishwashing, liquid hand washing, or even a
mild
shampoo detergent in their homes--how many have Kodak wetting
agent?

I however am still interested in Photo-flo, because I don't like the
extra foaming of additional detergent in ink, and have noticed that
once in a long while, some of my pens have to be encouraged just a
little to start when I use enough of it to really increase ink flow.
Once they start they're fine for hours though. But no determent I've
tried does any harm to the pen; when pure Quink is used again they are
back to their same dry, but easy-starting habits. I have read that
some alcohols attack some plastics, but would suppose it unlikely that
Photo-flo would attack the specific plastic found in the feed of a
given fountain pen. But I'm just guessing.

It may be that some detergents have other ingredients such as perfumes
that aren't good for a pen.

I'm going to get some Shell Teepol to try if I can find it, as
Giovanni Abrate suggested, and I have some Photo-flo ordered to try in
one of my cheapie pens. In the meantime, does anyone (perhaps Adrien
Lawrie) have any further experience with Photo-flo in ink? Any
problems with it? How much do you use?

Gregg Gibson wrote:

... unlikely that Photo-flo would attack the
specific plastic found in the feed of a
given fountain pen....

Googling on "jobo photoflo" results in a
number of hits, some of which explain that
the Photoflo doesn't attack the plastic, but
that over time -- years evidently -- it results
in a buildup of scum on the gears. This scum
can be removed by soaking in bleach, then
scrubbing with a toothbrush. (You wouldn't
be able to do that to your Pelikan barrel.)
It doesn't attack or degrade the plastic.

But I doubt that the amount of use or
contact in a fountain pen would be anywhere
near the same magnitude as in commercial
film processing equipment, and the concentration
would be infinitesimal. I'm thinking this would
be more like soap scum build-up on commercial
washing machine parts.

I, and I believe others in this group who know much more than I, would
suggest having your feed adjusted to produce the degree of wetness or
dryness that you desire. My impression is that the range of
adjustment is from no ink at all, ever, to all of the ink at once,
every time.
Fountain pen ink is a balance of ingredients to get the ink to flow
through the pen, but not through the paper. I ruined a nice bottle of
Antigua Blue by getting a little Windex into it from a poorly rinsed
pen. That bottle feathers like a diseased turkey now.
One of the nice things about getting a custom ground nib is that the
maker will generally have adjusted the feed so that it is nice and
moist, but not too wet.
But try the Photo-flow anyway. FPs are for fun; mixing ink is too.
And even if you just wind up re-inventing the wheel at least its your
wheel.



(Gregg Gibson) wrote in message . com...
I'm interested in wetting agents for ink, and have been exploring this
group's archives on the subject.

I really like the way liquid detergent increases the wetness of my
ink, but I don't like the increased foaming.

Also found this in the archives:

On July 16, 2000 PGldbrg wrote:
Better [as a wetting agent in ink] is product available in
photography stores call Photo Flo. It is a
wetting agent to get photo chemicals to spread evenly in the darkroom.
Very
pure so it won't ruin the pictures.

To which the late Frank Dubiel replied:
Agreed. But fact is most pen companies just used standard detergent.
Photo-floo is a bit harder to find, but I wont disagree it would work
as well
for a wetting agent. So little is used in either case, i.e. a drop
or two
per gallon, that it makes little difference if its photo-flo or
standard
dertergent like ALL. The additional chemicals in a mild dertergent
are so
minute, esp in quanities in ink they have no effect, or if any, simply
help
clean a pen as it writes, (and that effect is more hype than reality)
which is
the basis for Solv-X in Quink, and also Mont Blanc, Waterman and Skrip
inks
among many others that all make or have made the same claim at one
time or
another.

If they only put a drop or two per gallon, then no wonder I like more.
I like a very flee-flowing ink, so a drop or two per bottle is more my
style.

Amazon.com and Odarama Camera have photo-flo in 4 oz and 16 oz
bottles. If it works safely as a wetting agent for ink, a 16 oz bottle
should last a lifetime. Not too dear either.

I'm wondering just how much alcohol Photo-flo contains, and what kind.
of alcohol. I remember from my chemistry that some alcohols behave
quite differently from others. Certainly not all alcohols damage
plastic - many are sold in plastic bottles, as is photo-flo.

These archives are fascinating. You can lose yourself in them for
hours...

"Tetractys" wrote in message ...
Gregg Gibson wrote:

... unlikely that Photo-flo would attack the
specific plastic found in the feed of a
given fountain pen....

Googling on "jobo photoflo" results in a
number of hits, some of which explain that
the Photoflo doesn't attack the plastic, but
that over time -- years evidently -- it results
in a buildup of scum on the gears. This scum
can be removed by soaking in bleach, then
scrubbing with a toothbrush. (You wouldn't
be able to do that to your Pelikan barrel.)
It doesn't attack or degrade the plastic.

But I doubt that the amount of use or
contact in a fountain pen would be anywhere
near the same magnitude as in commercial
film processing equipment, and the concentration
would be infinitesimal. I'm thinking this would
be more like soap scum build-up on commercial
washing machine parts.

This is very helpful. Thanks.

(svejk) wrote in message . com...
I, and I believe others in this group who know much more than I, would
suggest having your feed adjusted to produce the degree of wetness or
dryness that you desire. My impression is that the range of
adjustment is from no ink at all, ever, to all of the ink at once,
every time.
Fountain pen ink is a balance of ingredients to get the ink to flow
through the pen, but not through the paper. I ruined a nice bottle of
Antigua Blue by getting a little Windex into it from a poorly rinsed
pen. That bottle feathers like a diseased turkey now.
One of the nice things about getting a custom ground nib is that the
maker will generally have adjusted the feed so that it is nice and
moist, but not too wet.
But try the Photo-flow anyway. FPs are for fun; mixing ink is too.
And even if you just wind up re-inventing the wheel at least its your
wheel.

Hmmm. You're probably right about getting my nibs adjusted. I have
ordered 'Da Book' and may even give this a try myself. But I'm also
nostalgic for the Old Skrip, which I have the impression must have had
more wetting agent than other inks. At least it had something special
to make it so smooth. I vaguely remember reading about Mr Sheaffer
with his hundreds of bottles of secret additives in his ink lab, back
in the early years of the 20th century...

We actually developed a product that is specifically formulated as an ink
additive: it is called InkSafe
InkSafe can be used for various purposes:
1. to increase ink flow, add one or two drops (no more) to a full bottle of
ink. If you need to add the product to a cartridge or a full converter, dip
a needle into the InkSafe and then dip it into the cartridge. A little bit
of the product goes a long way. If you find that the ink feathers on the
paper, you have used too much InkSafe.
2. To prevent the onset of "gunk" due to bacterial growth, add one drop of
InkSafe into a bottle of ink. Stir well.
3. To remove any residue of manufacturing oils from a converter, add a few
drops of InkSafe to a small amount of water and flush the converter
repeatedly by filling and emptying it with the InkSafe solution.
InkSafe, and much more, can be found at the world's largest online pen care
products website:

http://tryphon.it/catalogo.htm

Bookmark the URL for all your future pen care and repair needs.
Giovanni

"Gregg Gibson" wrote in message
om...
I'm interested in wetting agents for ink, and have been exploring this
group's archives on the subject.

I really like the way liquid detergent increases the wetness of my
ink, but I don't like the increased foaming.

(Gregg Gibson) wrote in message . com...
My photo-flo arrived and I have been tinkering with adding it to Quink
black

I used Sheaffer cartridge pens and some cheap Italian piston-fillers
to work with..

Photo-flo has an effect quite different from adding teepol-based
detergents (like Ajax or Ivory I think) to ink. The detergents just
increase ink flow, period, and seem to work best with some added water
(1/4 to 1/3 of the total). They make the ink look darker on the Xerox
copy paper I use. Adding water makes the ink cohere better, forming a
'ridge of ink' on the paper, so that paradoxically the ink looks a
little darker with added water than without, as long as detergent is
used.

The disadvantage to adding detergent to Quink is that the points dry
out quicker so that an uncapped Sheaffer or one that is stored with
the nib up,sometimes needs a little shaking to start after only 10 or
15 minutes without writing.

Photo-flo on the other hand, even at concentrations of only 1 drop
from a 3 cc syringe per bottle, causes the Quink to spread out more on
the paper, and look rather washed out, even when no extra water is
added. Nor does it increase flow as much as detergent. But it does
have one very attractive effect. At concentrations of 6 to 8 drops
(dripped in from a 3 cc syringe) per bottle it seems to lubricate the
point in a remarkable manner, even better than the old Skrip. Maybe Mr
Sheaffer found something similar and put it in his ink to make it so
incredibly smooth-writing.

I also tried combining detergent and photo-flo, but I just don't like
the washed-out effect that even one drop of photo-flo gives per
bottle.

Somewhere out there is a wetting agent much better than either
detergent or photo-flo, one that permits the absolute minimum of dye
to be used, thus avoiding clogging and staining, while causing the ink
to flood out onto the paper in a river of ink that nevertheless does
not feather or spread too much, and that always starts at once in
every pen.

I think that the old Skrip was pretty close to these requirements,
only it was a little washed out, and spread a little too much on my
Xerox copy paper.

It occurs to me that someone might want to try adding 6 or 8 drops of
photo-flo (from a 3 cc syringe) to a really dye-heavy ink like private
reserve or levengers black, and see if there would be a washed-out
effect to the ink on the paper. If not, photo-flo would be the perfect
way to make these inks smoother. They tend to be a little
rough-writing and hard-flowing right out of the bottle, at least on my
Xerox paper.

In the past I have also mixed up inks from Speedball water-soluble
printing ink gel, which are perfectly acceptable for fountain pen use,
once detergent is added to the distilled water/gel mix. You can mix up
a bottle of ink for less than a dollar. I am going to try adding
photo-flo to this as well and see what happens.

Naturally I would NEVER experiment with an unknown ink in a really
expensive or prized pen.

Also of course, it is not necessary to use whole bottles of ink. I
just use 2 cc ink and photo-flo diluted in 0,5 cc distilled water. It
is then simple to calculate the number of drops of the photo-flo/water
mixture (or detergent/water mixture) that is the equivalent of 1 drop
per 50 or 57 cc bottle of ink.

The added water in the ink has a definite effect on the flowing
characteristics of the ink, and you can have all kinds of fun for
hours and hours varying the proportions.

"Gregg Gibson" wrote in message
om...

Somewhere out there is a wetting agent much better than either
detergent or photo-flo, one that permits the absolute minimum of dye
to be used, thus avoiding clogging and staining, while causing the ink
to flood out onto the paper in a river of ink that nevertheless does
not feather or spread too much, and that always starts at once in
every pen.



We believe the additive you wish existed is called InkSafe and available
from us.
Check out the catalog at:
http://tryphon.it/catalogo.htm
Regards,
Giovanni