ID needed France

On 19 Jul 2004 06:30:17 -0700, (malcolm
hirst) wrote:

Would this tax be a method primarily of raising revenue or by
increasing the price offering some protection to the coffee-producers
of France. In some areas of finance tax is not necessarily to raise
revenue( although no doubt the extra monet is welcome!)

Malcolm:

As far as I know coffee is not produced in France,
so the "producers" do not exist there. West / Central / East Africa,
the West Indies or Yemen would be the closest to France.

South America, Indonesia + parts of SE Asia also produce it.

Coffee Producing Countries
http://www.allaboutcoffee.org/0f3384e0.jpg

Is it possible that this revenue was applied to packages of chicory?
Much like playing card stamps (applied to packets of cards and
tobacco revenues attached to packets of cigars and cigarettes.

Blair

================================================== ========================
AK47 wrote in message ...
Mr. Tracy Barber wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:42:49 -0400, AK47
wrote:


My guess is that the "stamp" is a wartime rationing coupon for

chickory, a substitute for coffee. Can anyone in France confirm that?

Already did, to some extent. Read my reply...

rest snipped

Thanks for all of your replies.

My suspicion befroe I made my original post was that this was some sort
of ration coupon.

This brings up another question:

These stamps were issued between 1926 - 1935. That was not wartime.WWI
ended in 1918 WWII did not begin until 1939. Does anyone know why
rationing normally a wartime measure, and particularly of an inferior
subsitute like chocory would have been necessary in that period.


The stamps were issued between 1917 - 1945. This is what Yvert calls
the 2nd Period.

The first period was 1871 - 1878 and these were small circular stamps
on flimsy pelure paper. Wasn't this the Franco-Prussian war period?

Here's the Yvert French version, without accents:

Ces timbres on ete crees en execution de la loi du 30 decembre 1916
retablissant la taxation de la chicoree at des autres succedanes du
cafe.

Here's my translation, without on-line help:

These stamps were created by execution of the law of December 30, 1916
which re-establishes taxation of chicoree and other substitutes of/for
coffee.

Hope this helps. :^)

Thanks. I conclude then that the stamps are tax-paid revenue stamps
rather than ration coupons as the earlier posts in this thread supposed.

Blair
Sorry - perhaps I wasn't clear. By producers I meant
shippers,importers, manufacturers,suppliers,processers etc - in other
words the French infrastructure involved in the supply of coffee to
the public. I didn't necessary mean growers - I mean companies like
Nescafe and Maxwell House today occupy a fairly powerful "vested
interest" group - and as coffee has always been the "staple" drink in
France ( after wine of course) perhaps some form of protective
taxation might be a possibility.
I will be more careful with my wording in future!
Regards
Malcolm



"Blair (TC)" wrote in message . ..
On 19 Jul 2004 06:30:17 -0700, (malcolm
hirst) wrote:

Would this tax be a method primarily of raising revenue or by
increasing the price offering some protection to the coffee-producers
of France. In some areas of finance tax is not necessarily to raise
revenue( although no doubt the extra monet is welcome!)

Malcolm:

As far as I know coffee is not produced in France,
so the "producers" do not exist there. West / Central / East Africa,
the West Indies or Yemen would be the closest to France.

South America, Indonesia + parts of SE Asia also produce it.

Coffee Producing Countries
http://www.allaboutcoffee.org/0f3384e0.jpg

Is it possible that this revenue was applied to packages of chicory?
Much like playing card stamps (applied to packets of cards and
tobacco revenues attached to packets of cigars and cigarettes.

Blair

================================================== ========================
AK47 wrote in message ...
Mr. Tracy Barber wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:42:49 -0400, AK47
wrote:


My guess is that the "stamp" is a wartime rationing coupon for

chickory, a substitute for coffee. Can anyone in France confirm that?

Already did, to some extent. Read my reply...

rest snipped

Thanks for all of your replies.

My suspicion befroe I made my original post was that this was some sort
of ration coupon.

This brings up another question:

These stamps were issued between 1926 - 1935. That was not wartime.WWI
ended in 1918 WWII did not begin until 1939. Does anyone know why
rationing normally a wartime measure, and particularly of an inferior
subsitute like chocory would have been necessary in that period.


The stamps were issued between 1917 - 1945. This is what Yvert calls
the 2nd Period.

The first period was 1871 - 1878 and these were small circular stamps
on flimsy pelure paper. Wasn't this the Franco-Prussian war period?

Here's the Yvert French version, without accents:

Ces timbres on ete crees en execution de la loi du 30 decembre 1916
retablissant la taxation de la chicoree at des autres succedanes du
cafe.

Here's my translation, without on-line help:

These stamps were created by execution of the law of December 30, 1916
which re-establishes taxation of chicoree and other substitutes of/for
coffee.

Hope this helps. :^)

Thanks. I conclude then that the stamps are tax-paid revenue stamps
rather than ration coupons as the earlier posts in this thread supposed.

Hi
I missed reading this when it was first posted so better late than
never.
Chicory was first taxed between September 1871 and Junr 1873. It was next
taxed with revenue stamps like that on the site between December 1916 until
December 1945.
Have fun, Art

From: AK47
Newsgroups: rec.collecting.stamps.discuss
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 10:47:12 -0400
Subject: ID needed France

I have a strange stamp which I think was part of a kiloware mixture I
bought about 25 years ago.
The stamp is red, and inscribed (in French)²250 grams chicory and other
substitutes for coffee².
It bears a seal which indicates that it was issued by the French Government.
Can anyone in the group identify it?

http://users.rcn.com/jnobrien/France_ID_0704.jpg
--
To e-mail me get rid of the cats and dogs.

PS: wouldn't it be great if instead of going through all this BS to put
a picture of this on the Internet, we could just attach it to this post.
Oh for th good old days before worms and viruses!

On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:00:28 -0400, Arthur Mongan
wrote:

Hi
I missed reading this when it was first posted so better late than
never.
Chicory was first taxed between September 1871 and June 1873. It was next
taxed with revenue stamps like that on the site between December 1916 until
December 1945.
Have fun, Art


================================================== ====================

Interesting dates: 1871 end of the Franco Prussian war , 1916-45
WW1, Depression, + WW2, Events making coffee generally unavailable
and replaced by inferior "ersatz coffee" made mainly from chicory.

SO LET's TAX CHICORY.

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Note 1 : Ersatz is a German adjective meaning "substitute" but which
has also evolved to mean something like "make-believe". While we
mostly associate it with the privations of WWI , the global
Depression in the '30s and the then privations of wartime during and
immediately after the Third Reich, it would be interesting to know the
cultural context for its adoption in the late 19th Century.... and how
it came to be adopted by English speakers then and in what context it
was used (political or military?).

New York Times, New York, N.Y.; Jan 18,1871; pg. 1, 1 pgs
"The real army and _ersatz_ reserve--ie., those below the regulation
stature, who, however, are in general quite fit to take the field and
are taller than the French--has not been called out.")

"Reich Gets New Ersatz Coffee"; New York Times New York, N.Y.;
Jan 3, 1940; pg. 11, 1 pgs

FOUND FOOD ENOUGH IN BELGIAN CITIES; American Observer Was Also
Surprised at Relative Plenty in Alsace. DUE TO GERMANS' RETREAT
Armistice Prevented Their Ravaging These Sources Which Had Supplied
Their Armies.; By WALTER DURANTY. Copyright, 1918, by The New York
Times Company Special Cable to THE NEW YORK TIMES.; New York Times
New York, N.Y.; Dec 3, 1918; pg. 5, 1 pgs
("...bread, butter and sugar gratis, and a vile ersatz coffee, with
genuine homemade cordial, 1 mark.")

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Note 2 : Coffee imports had became impossible by 1916. The scant
stores on hand had been stretched and extenuated by the use of CHICORY
and other supplements. A transition from coffee to coffee substitute
began.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Chicory: A plant related to the endive and the dandelion. The wild
chicory plant is also known as blue succory because of the colour of
its flowers. The cultivated varieties are root chickory (var. sativum)
and salad chicory (var. foliosum). Root chicory was initially used as
animal fodder, but later as the basis for ersatz coffee.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Blair Stannard