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#21
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12/14/2003 10:05 AM
On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 17:23:55 GMT, Bob Ingraham wrote: I am kinda on the fence about societal/political apologies and reparations for past misdeeds on the part of government, but I think I am more on the side of the plaintiffs than the defendants, at least in "modern" cases. Here in British Columbia, I have seen the results of two "programs" that resulted in huge injustices to innocents. Just a follow up... I don't want to sound insensitive to those that have bene "wronged" like Bob mentioned, but it arises from the mass hysteria that was war. An excuse, but not a very good one. A wrong is a wrong, regardless of the circumstances. And neither German and Italian Canadians, nor German and Italian Americans, were shipped to what amounted to concentration camps, nor did they have their possessions confiscated. How is the wartime treatment of Japanese Canadians and Americans not a crime? I should have mentioned in my first post that the residential school program had nothing to do with the Second World War. In Canada, it dated from the 1870s and was promoted by the federal government until 1969. BTW, I have, as well as others, helped out a school like Bob mentioned by sending countless stamps to them, while there was a stamp program in place. Not as bleak as the palce Bob mentioned, but fairly close... Tracy Barber If you are speaking of Vanessa Isit's school here in B.C., you can be sure that the problems its students face today are a direct result of the residential school system. The residential schools may be closed, but their devastating impact will be felt for years to come. (For newbies, Vanessa is a teacher -- now on permanent medical leave because of muscular dystrophy -- who for several years ran a stamp club in a school that serve a native reserve in Lower Nicola, B.C. She had a lot of success with the club -- as many as 90 kids came to weekly meetings! She once told me some of her stamp club kids owned only one thing in the world, except perhaps the clothes on they wore, and that was their stamp collections. Some of them left their collections in her care because they were afraid their parents would sell them for beer money. Vanessa can brag of a notable philatelic achievement: she is also an artist, and one of the U.N. stamps -- I'm not sure which one -- is based on one of her paintings. Does anyone know more about this?) Bob Ingraham |
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#22
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12/14/2003 1:47 PM
Canada's government was guilty of a crime against a people; since Canada's governments is an ongoing entity, it remains guilty in my opinion. A fitting commentary Bob, Thank you. The first half adequately covers the Aboriginal tragedy here. I guess the word that broadly covers the topic is empathy. I wonder the history book if role reversal, A Black Government removing children from white families, and fostering them to black families for better integration,care and education. (Remove gum to reply) Role reversal is a useful way of examining the strange ways of humans, of walking a mile in another's shoes. One of Ray Bradbury's books, The Other Foot, postulates a Mars that has been populated by Blacks who left earth to escape the antipathies of whites. Earth destroys itself in a nuclear war, but a white refugees escape to Mars hoping for a welcome, if not a warm welcome. Along the same vein is one of Bradbury's short stories, part of the The Martian Chronicles, titled "Way in the Middle of the Air." It concerns the the relationship between the White and Black population of a small Southern town, specificially between a young Black man and his employer, a red-neck who has grown up assuming that Blacks would always be at his beck and call, and subservient to him. He tolerates them, even likes them, in ways, but has been known to enjoy lynchings. When the Blacks of the town get the opportunity to escape earth in a rocket ship to colonize Mars, they leave en masse. The white bigot finds himself helplessly facing an empty future, because he has come to depend not so much on the labor of Black men, but on the power that he erroneously believed he had over them. I want a Ray Bradbury stamp! (I'd better not say that too loudly, lest I end up with a new collecting interest!) Bob Ingraham |
#23
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On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 22:29:28 GMT, Bob Ingraham
wrote: Just a follow up... I don't want to sound insensitive to those that have bene "wronged" like Bob mentioned, but it arises from the mass hysteria that was war. An excuse, but not a very good one. A wrong is a wrong, regardless of the circumstances. And neither German and Italian Canadians, nor German and Italian Americans, were shipped to what amounted to concentration camps, nor did they have their possessions confiscated. How is the wartime treatment of Japanese Canadians and Americans not a crime? Apparently, you have forgotten about the hysteria that was created by the Pearl Harbor and other propaganda surrounding it. The Germans nor the Italians directly attacked our "shores", so to speak. And why not, Bob? Let's stop thinking with our hats of 2003 and venture back to when this was rampant. The Chinese took the brunt of the railroad system in the states. The Native Americans took the brunt of expansionism west. Canada's definitely not exempt from atrocities and so forth. As per WWII, the Japanese were doing FAR WORSE to our older relatives than the Canadian govt. could ever do to those kids during that time period. At least they had something to eat, albeit oatmeal. The Japanese, from all that has been shown, (not all of them, of course), were worse in their tactics than some the Germans did in Europe. It's just not mentioned as much, is all. There's plenty of misery to go around. There's cruelty all over this forsaken planet. Then and now. I should have mentioned in my first post that the residential school program had nothing to do with the Second World War. In Canada, it dated from the 1870s and was promoted by the federal government until 1969. This would have cleared a little up, yes indeed. BTW, I have, as well as others, helped out a school like Bob mentioned by sending countless stamps to them, while there was a stamp program in place. Not as bleak as the palce Bob mentioned, but fairly close... If you are speaking of Vanessa Isit's school here in B.C., you can be sure that the problems its students face today are a direct result of the residential school system. The residential schools may be closed, but their devastating impact will be felt for years to come. ....and this is truly a shame. (For newbies, Vanessa is a teacher -- now on permanent medical leave because of muscular dystrophy -- who for several years ran a stamp club in a school that serve a native reserve in Lower Nicola, B.C. She had a lot of success with the club -- as many as 90 kids came to weekly meetings! She once told me some of her stamp club kids owned only one thing in the world, except perhaps the clothes on they wore, and that was their stamp collections. Some of them left their collections in her care because they were afraid their parents would sell them for beer money. Vanessa can brag of a notable philatelic achievement: she is also an artist, and one of the U.N. stamps -- I'm not sure which one -- is based on one of her paintings. Does anyone know more about this?) This I didn't know about. Interesting. She sent me a letter mentioning pretty much the same thing you stated about their living conditions, schooling, the works. Pretty rough, to say the least. Anyway - when one side of the pot-kettle-black is stating something, usually the other side has close to the same number of bones in the closet... sad that it is. Tracy Barber |
#24
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Reply at the bottom where it belongs (you should know this, Victor!)
"Victor Manta" wrote in message ... Are you sure that I don't understand it? How about the following Universal Declaration (?) In a time when the individual right weren't respected either by your people or by our one, we express our deeply regret for all atrocities, including for those perpetrated by our ancestors. Signed The Prime Minister Is it OK for you in this form? Victor Manta No, Victor, you do not understand my opinion at all. I am not saying any government should apologize for anything done in the past - nor am I saying that they *shouldn't* apologize. I was pointing out only that an apology does not necessarily imply guilt or responsibility on the part the the group giving the apology. That's all - nothing more. Peter G. Aitken Yes I am sure you do not understand what I am trying to say. -- Peter Aitken Remove the crap from my email address before using. |
#25
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"Peter Aitken" wrote in message . com... Reply at the bottom where it belongs (you should know this, Victor!) I apology for this. ¦¦ V "Victor Manta" wrote in message ... Are you sure that I don't understand it? How about the following Universal Declaration (?) In a time when the individual right weren't respected either by your people or by our one, we express our deeply regret for all atrocities, including for those perpetrated by our ancestors. Signed The Prime Minister Is it OK for you in this form? Victor Manta No, Victor, you do not understand my opinion at all. I am not saying any government should apologize for anything done in the past - nor am I saying that they *shouldn't* apologize. I was pointing out only that an apology does not necessarily imply guilt or responsibility on the part the the group giving the apology. That's all - nothing more. Peter G. Aitken Yes I am sure you do not understand what I am trying to say. Peter Aitken I apology for this too. Victor Manta |
#26
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"Bob Ingraham" wrote in message ... It's in the news still. Some of Jefferson's white descendants are fighting tooth and nail to ignore what seems to be incontrovertible DNA evidence that Jefferson did indeed father children with one of his slaves, Sally Hemings, but others have accepted it as fact and apparently are enjoying having a suddenly larger family network: I believe the original DNA study was based on the Y (male-maker) chromosome, which is passed pretty much intact from father to all sons. It only showed that at least one (the last, I believe) of the Hennings' children was likely fathered by one of the Jefferson men. Some historians considered Thomas's brother to be the more likely candidate. (I have no opinion either way.) I have not read about any further studies. http://charleston.net/stories/071403/wor_14jeff.s html only says "a genetic link was established between the Hemingses and Jeffersons in 1998". Any of the Jefferson men could be that link. TJR |
#27
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"Tracy Barber" wrote in message ... An excuse, but not a very good one. A wrong is a wrong, regardless of the circumstances. And neither German and Italian Canadians, nor German and Italian Americans, were shipped to what amounted to concentration camps, nor did they have their possessions confiscated. How is the wartime treatment of Japanese Canadians and Americans not a crime? Apparently, you have forgotten about the hysteria that was created by the Pearl Harbor and other propaganda surrounding it. The Hawaiian Japanese Americans, who logically were the most 'dangerous', were left alone. The more bigoted West coast (where I grew up) had a bigoted commander who pushed to treat even kids worse than criminals. The Germans nor the Italians directly attacked our "shores", so to speak. Actually, German subs operated right off the Atlantic coast sinking ships and landing spies. Those caught were interned here in Delaware. TJR |
#28
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12/16/2003 12:21 PM
"Tracy Barber" wrote in message ... An excuse, but not a very good one. A wrong is a wrong, regardless of the circumstances. And neither German and Italian Canadians, nor German and Italian Americans, were shipped to what amounted to concentration camps, nor did they have their possessions confiscated. How is the wartime treatment of Japanese Canadians and Americans not a crime? Apparently, you have forgotten about the hysteria that was created by the Pearl Harbor and other propaganda surrounding it. The Hawaiian Japanese Americans, who logically were the most 'dangerous', were left alone. The more bigoted West coast (where I grew up) had a bigoted commander who pushed to treat even kids worse than criminals. The Germans nor the Italians directly attacked our "shores", so to speak. Actually, German subs operated right off the Atlantic coast sinking ships and landing spies. Those caught were interned here in Delaware. TJR Good points, Terry. There can really be no serious argument that "war hysteria" was the cause of the Japanese internments in both Canada and the U.S. Let's call it what it was: bigotry. I found the following information, about California but relevant to Canadian history, at this web site: http://www.delmar.edu/socsci/rlong/race/far-15.htm. Note that it concerns conditions well *before* the Second World War: "Finally, when legislation against the Chinese proved ineffectual, gangs of resentful whites drove them bodily from the fields. Many were deported to China under the Oriental Exclusion Act of 1882 and the Geary Act of 1892, while others took refuge in the cities. "After the Chinese were driven away, and by the time Japanese were "enticed" to come to harvest the crops, "over half a million acres of farm land had been put out of cultivation in California." During the 90's, Japanese farm laborers began to appear around Fresno. From about 2,000 in 1890, their number grew to 24,000 in 1900, and 72,000 in 1910. They worked almost exclusively on specialized farms. They had no families, moved quietly from harvest to harvest, and never obtruded their presence on the white community. No one seemed to know where or how they lived, or where they went when their work was done. They were hired through their own employment clubs, and, at first, worked for less than white and even Chinese labor. Again, the big farms had "solved" their labor problem. "The Japanese, however, behaved most ungratefully. First, after obtaining a virtual monopoly over California farm labor, they demanded higher wages, and got them. Second, they began to acquire land of their own‹waste land, to be sure, which no one else thought worth cultivating‹and were amazingly successful in farming on their own account. By 1918, they were growing some 25,000 acres of rice in California. Other arid stretches were turned into fruitful berry country by the Japanese. These innovations were due entirely to the skill and imagination of Japanese farmers. "Accordingly, instead of an "ideal labor force," the Japanese now were known as undesirable "Asiatics" who must be prevented from getting a "firm foothold and permanent position in the community." The campaign against the Japanese resulted in the Alien Land Act of 1913 and restriction on Japanese immigration in 1924. They were forced to sell their land-holdings under the Alien Land Act, and except for the few who were able to evade the provisions of this law, the Japanese lost the benefit of their contribution to California agriculture. During World War II, of course, they suffered further losses. |
#29
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On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 23:30:30 GMT, Bob Ingraham
wrote: 12/16/2003 12:21 PM "Tracy Barber" wrote in message ... An excuse, but not a very good one. A wrong is a wrong, regardless of the circumstances. And neither German and Italian Canadians, nor German and Italian Americans, were shipped to what amounted to concentration camps, nor did they have their possessions confiscated. How is the wartime treatment of Japanese Canadians and Americans not a crime? Apparently, you have forgotten about the hysteria that was created by the Pearl Harbor and other propaganda surrounding it. The Hawaiian Japanese Americans, who logically were the most 'dangerous', were left alone. The more bigoted West coast (where I grew up) had a bigoted commander who pushed to treat even kids worse than criminals. The Germans nor the Italians directly attacked our "shores", so to speak. Actually, German subs operated right off the Atlantic coast sinking ships and landing spies. Those caught were interned here in Delaware. TJR Good points, Terry. There can really be no serious argument that "war hysteria" was the cause of the Japanese internments in both Canada and the U.S. Let's call it what it was: bigotry. And you call Japanese aggression what? Tracy Barber |
#30
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Tracy Barber wrote:
On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 23:30:30 GMT, Bob Ingraham wrote: 12/16/2003 12:21 PM "Tracy Barber" wrote in message ... An excuse, but not a very good one. A wrong is a wrong, regardless of the circumstances. And neither German and Italian Canadians, nor German and Italian Americans, were shipped to what amounted to concentration camps, nor did they have their possessions confiscated. How is the wartime treatment of Japanese Canadians and Americans not a crime? Apparently, you have forgotten about the hysteria that was created by the Pearl Harbor and other propaganda surrounding it. The Hawaiian Japanese Americans, who logically were the most 'dangerous', were left alone. The more bigoted West coast (where I grew up) had a bigoted commander who pushed to treat even kids worse than criminals. The Germans nor the Italians directly attacked our "shores", so to speak. Actually, German subs operated right off the Atlantic coast sinking ships and landing spies. Those caught were interned here in Delaware. TJR Good points, Terry. There can really be no serious argument that "war hysteria" was the cause of the Japanese internments in both Canada and the U.S. Let's call it what it was: bigotry. And you call Japanese aggression what? Tracy Barber War crimes. Do you always blame innocent persons, such as the Japanese Americans, for the misdeeds of the political leaders in their former homeland? = Eric |
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