Ink Question

Nathan -

Thanks very much for all this info. Great stuff.

Will you post here when you get a UK distributor. I want this ink!

Regards

Tony


On Tue, 27 Apr 2004,05:04:29, Scaupaug wrote

Noodler's Black:

It was made so that you could dry out the bottle in the dry air near a coal
stove and then reconstitute it by adding water. Put a sample in a glass or
petrii dish - let it dry...then simply stir plain old water back in to the same
level the ink was at when freshly poured - and you'll see for yourself.

--
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Tony Stanford writes:

And you've answered it. When you have a UK distributor, I'll be first
in line for Noodlers black, my favourite colour.

Swisher ships internationally.

--
Mark Atwood | When you do things right, people won't be sure
| you've done anything at all.
http://www.pobox.com/~mra | http://www.livejournal.com/users/fallenpegasus

Blandolf wrote:
The question you want to ask about Noodler's/Swisher's or any other
fountain pen ink claiming to be water-resistant or water-proof is ...
what did they add to the ink to make it so.

Scaupaug wrote:
Bogus. No shellac. No latex. No iron gall. No acrylic. No crap.

It's the way it holds in a water lattice and the way that ceases to
hold when dried in/on only cellulose....and that's all I'm telling
you because the technical data is proprietary....

I'm totally sold on the permanence of your waterproof inks, I'm just not
sold on their safety. What is it about Noodler's/Swisher's Black and
Aquamarine Blue that makes them so permanent when dried onto cellulose
paper? And given that many pens are made from cellulose-based products
(cellulose nitrate, cellulose acetate, and vegetal resin), and given
that your inks have not yet withstood the test of time like Quink,
Sheaffer, Waterman (which are not waterproof but are widely considered
to be "safe" inks) and others, can you assure us that these waterproof
inks will not stain pens or damage them in any other way? For example,
how long can these inks be used in a Vacumatic, a vintage Pelikan with
celluloid barrel, or a Pelikan light tortoise/white pen without
discoloring the visulated portions of the barrel? Is the ink safe to use
in vegetal resin pens? MB is up front about what makes its permanent ink
permanent. It's helpful knowing that their Blue-Black document ink
contains iron-gall as iron-gall has been added to many inks for decades
to increase permanence, and we know what we have to do to use these inks
safely in our cherished pens. Pelikan Fount India gets its permanence
from pigments. Again, knowing that it's a pigmented ink helps us decide
which pens to use it in and how to care for them to avoid clogging,
staining, etc. Neither MB nor Pelikan claims their inks are waterproof.
I can certainly understand why you would want to protect your trade
secret, but a patent would achieve the same thing. If you've patented
the formula, let us know as looking up the patent would provide answers
to these questions. Thanks much... Bernadette

Scaupaug wrote:

Now a problem arose...legal documents such as a simple mortgage MUST
have the signature in BLUE because of photocopy abilities and legal
requirements.

You do make very nice inks, and I commend anyone who manufactures a
specialty item like that; but I'll take issue with the above statement. I've
been a lawyer for over 23 years, and have signed thousands upon thousands
upon thousands of "legal documents" recordable and not; filed with courts
both Federal and State, or just plain put in a draw forever. I have NEVER
used blue until my recent purchase of PR's American Blue. I've signed them
with Herbin Violet Pensee, PR Naples Blue, Tanzanite, old South Seas Blue,
Black - you name it, I've used it!

My clients have signed them with everything from Bic pens to
who-knows-what, and I've never had a document returned to me for not using
blue ink! Nor have I had a document or correspondence not copy because of
the ink color

I think someone is pulling your leg!

Your Ottoman Rose sounds great; I can't wait to try it, but I doubt I'll
use it on a document.
--
Cordially,

Sonam Dasara

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully
as when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal, Pensees, No. 894 (1670)

dovekeeper+at+electric-ink+dot+com

Tony Stanford writes:

I wasn't questioning your integrity or knowledge: I just wondered,
purely as a query, how a waterproof ink could be washed out of a pen
but not out of paper.

What I've gathered is that the ink contains an agent that binds to
cellulose and to nothing (or almost nothing) else, trapping the black
dye in the process. No cellulose in the writing surface, no reaction.
No cellulose in your feed, no problem. Probably the surface would
also need to be porous and absorb the ink in its wet state, which
would mean that it wouldn't react with nitrocellulose surfaces- those
not being porous (or at least not porous enough).

I wasn't questioning your integrity or knowledge: I just wondered,
purely as a query, how a waterproof ink could be washed out of a pen
but not out of paper.

What I've gathered is that the ink contains an agent that binds to
cellulose and to nothing (or almost nothing) else, trapping the black
dye in the process. No cellulose in the writing surface, no reaction.
No cellulose in your feed, no problem. Probably the surface would
also need to be porous and absorb the ink in its wet state, which
would mean that it wouldn't react with nitrocellulose surfaces- those
not being porous (or at least not porous enough).



I'm not going to be so naive as to disclose more than I have about the black or
any other inks (but the above post by Tim explains things well), as it would
not please a certain poster regardless of any explanation or facts at this
point. If my now extensive testing is not good enough for that poster, then so
be it. I'll leave it at that, some people will never try new inks until after
a 70 year "trial" wait to see if it is as good as another more "proven" ink
despite changes in those very same other brands that have made them quite
different from what they used to be (Penman was made by Parker afterall, Quink
black is not the same as it was in 1950, Sheaffer ink is now from Slovakia). I
am not Frank and will not banter constantly with somebody like that who is
convinced I am always wrong from the first word anyway. I still regret that he
endured such as it did bother him.

I also refuse to wait 70 years to use my ink - especially after testing every
substance I could find that is even faintly related to pens. That's akin to
claiming women should have waited another 70 years for the vote, because men
were proven more "reliable" over the test of time or some such nonsense. I'll
be dead in 70 years - and as Lord Keyenes said....in the "long term" we are all
dead. If you don't like new things or new ink - then don't buy any! I suggest
a steady diet of pre-1950 vintage inks for such a person - just to be sure the
formulas did not change even by an iota in that time. Besides, the other inks
are not waterproof - if that is a source of fear and loathing...just don't ever
use a UV/bleach/ammonia/water proof ink (scary, isn't it?). Stick to the stuff
that bleeds with a single drop of rain if that is your preference, such as
penman.

Also, some lawyers in New York have mentioned wanting the blue to distinguish
original contract signatures from the photo copies. I don't know why, but I'll
take them at their word as to what they desire and their reasons for using it
on the original documents.

Good night to all.....

"Tony Stanford" wrote in message
news

Hi -

I share the same hesitance about trying a water-resistant or
'waterproof' black ink, much as I like black.

My problem is this. If it dries on a page and can't be washed off - ie
is virtually insoluble in water - then how on earth can it be washed out
of a pen if the ink is inadvertently left to dry in one?

I mean, if it's insoluble, then it won't dissolve out of the pen either,
right?

Or have I missed something?

On the other hand, I have had good dealings with Nathan, and have bought
some great pens from him at excellent prices. He knows his onions, as we
say in the UK. But I'm still puzzled. Insoluble in water = it won't wash
out of a pen?

Regards

Tony Stanford

Sounds like Nathan's ink is based upon a reactive dye. Try a Google search
on this term and you'll find a huge amount of inforation on the subject.
Reactive dyes have been around for many years and provided the ones he uses
exhibit long term stability in solution, I've no doubt they will do exactly
what it says on the tin. RD's can be designed to react very specifically
with particular materials and I would have thought using them as the basis
for ink is a very neat idea.

Gordon

On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 20:28:52 -0400, "Sonam Dasara"
wrote:

I have NEVER
used blue until my recent purchase of PR's American Blue. I've signed them
with Herbin Violet Pensee, PR Naples Blue, Tanzanite, old South Seas Blue,
Black - you name it, I've used it!

My clients have signed them with everything from Bic pens to
who-knows-what, and I've never had a document returned to me for not using
blue ink! Nor have I had a document or correspondence not copy because of
the ink color

I think someone is pulling your leg!

As a CPA and CFO, I've been filing documents with the state of
Maryland and the general requirement across several agencies has been
an original signed in blue and six copies. Been that way for at least
25 years, though I was never interested enough to see if it is true
for every Maryland agency or even most. Certainly true of the
Department of Health and Mental Hygiene and before at the Department
of Ageing (not sure about the six copies, though).

Frankly, it is a dinosaur. Printers and copiers that can provide that
blue signature on a copy are cheap and pervasive.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Curtis L. Russell wrote:
As a CPA and CFO, I've been filing documents with the state of
Maryland and the general requirement across several agencies has been
an original signed in blue and six copies. Been that way for at least
25 years, though I was never interested enough to see if it is true
for every Maryland agency or even most. Certainly true of the
Department of Health and Mental Hygiene and before at the Department
of Ageing (not sure about the six copies, though).

Frankly, it is a dinosaur. Printers and copiers that can provide that
blue signature on a copy are cheap and pervasive.

Hi Curtis,

That's fascinating! I'm barred in NJ and PA and there are no
requirements here about ink color. After reading your reply, I asked the
guys in our NY office, and there are no ink color requirements there either.
They were amazed when I mentioned your reply.

I guess that some states do have that requirement, and I don't know
why - I'm certain that you know most document disputes are based upon
impersonation or a clear forgery combined with a faulty/false/fraudulent
jurat.
--
Cordially,

Sonam Dasara

dovekeeper+at+electric-ink+dot+com

Gordon wrote:

Sounds like Nathan's ink is based upon a reactive dye....

Thanks for the info, Gordon.

Bernadette