Ink Question

Tony said:

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----------------------------------------
Hi -

I share the same hesitance about trying a water-resistant or
'waterproof' black ink, much as I like black.

My problem is this. If it dries on a page and can't be washed off - ie
is virtually insoluble in water - then how on earth can it be washed out
of a pen if the ink is inadvertently left to dry in one?

I mean, if it's insoluble, then it won't dissolve out of the pen either,
right?

Or have I missed something?
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I am old enough to recall my grandfather keeping two sets of pens, one
filled with regular ink, and one with what he called "permanent" ink.
For routine matters, he used regular, washable ink. However for certain
things, I recall he would use the permanent ink; in fact I had the
impression it was a requirement. He kept these pens in his right shirt
pocket, while the washable ones were in his left pocket. I believe this
was a regular practice prior to the mass advent of ball points, and
there must have been cleaning regimes since lost for fountain pens with
permanent ink. I have some vintage inks, and one is "Skrip Writing
Fluid" described as a permanent "successor to ink". An advertisement for
the Sheaffer Snorkel pen appears on the top of the box.

I use permanent art inks with my dip pens, and have cleaners I use for
them that I have tried in cheap fountain pens, and they appear to work.
However, I wonder if these permanent, non-washable inks were, in some
cases, their own solvents.

C.

Another question to bear in mind about permanent ink is this:
waterfastness and lightfastness are, of course, different properties,
not necessarily related.

I keep a journal, and I am much more interested in the persistence of
ink over time than in its waterfastness. None of my journals has ever
got wet, but the ones written 40 years ago (yup, 40) are now fading,
even though they are hardly ever opened.

I suppose we shall have to wait for someone to test Noodlers black for
lightfastness ....

Regards

Tony


On Thu, 22 Apr 2004,08:24:40, Jolyon Wright wrote

john cline ii wrote:

I also have purchased, but not yet tried, Nathan's Noodlers Black,
which I am told is virtually waterproof.

I have a bottle of Noodlers black on order & was hoping that someone on this
thread had tried it; we must be ink pioneers!

jolyon



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As an ebay junkie I find myself soaking a lot of pens,
as for how long the ink has dried I would guess years,
or decades in some cases.

The ink has dissolved every time.

I think the permanent aspect has to do with how well the ink
enters into the fibers of the paper and resists exiting.
Writing on the paper and dousing it will show that at least some
of the ink rinses off (haven't tried Noodler's though), even
Skrip colored the water a bit gray as I sprayed the page
though the writing was not visibly affected.

The negative I find with the permanent black is that
I'm always wearing some on my fingers.

JP




"Tony Stanford" wrote in message
news

Hi -

I share the same hesitance about trying a water-resistant or
'waterproof' black ink, much as I like black.

My problem is this. If it dries on a page and can't be washed off - ie
is virtually insoluble in water - then how on earth can it be washed out
of a pen if the ink is inadvertently left to dry in one?

I mean, if it's insoluble, then it won't dissolve out of the pen either,
right?

Or have I missed something?

On the other hand, I have had good dealings with Nathan, and have bought
some great pens from him at excellent prices. He knows his onions, as we
say in the UK. But I'm still puzzled. Insoluble in water = it won't wash
out of a pen?

Regards

Tony Stanford


On Sat, 24 Apr 2004,00:55:45, Chuck Swisher wrote

Dave wrote:

I am impressed with your (aka Noodlers) water resistance. Does this
water
resistance make it tough to clean a pen? I am one of the AR types who
want
several consecutive clean flushes from a pen before it is returned to
storage - rinsing a Vac is bad enough without water resistant ink.

Love to hear someone's experience on this.

I have tried it in cartridge/converter, piston, lever and button fill pen
s
but not in a Vac. I have found it any harder to clean out of these types
of
pens than Aurora or Parker black ink. This ink is water based and washes
off feeds and nibs just like any other water based inks. Here is a link
to
some additional information about these inks:

http://www.luxurybrandsusa.com/noodlers/

I hope this helps.

Best wishes,

Chuck Swisher at

Swisher Pens, Inc. - www.swisherpens.com

Tele: (757) 539-2209
TF: 1-888-340-PENS (7367)
Fax: (757) 925-2787



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Tony Stanford wrote:
'waterproof' black ink...
If it dries on a page and can't be washed off - ie
is virtually insoluble in water - then how on earth can it be washed out
of a pen if the ink is inadvertently left to dry in one?

On the other hand, I have had good dealings with Nathan, and have bought
some great pens from him at excellent prices.


I've been wondering from the beginning if the waterproof black is bad
for fountain pens.
However, regarding your second point, I agree that Nathan is tops, he's
like his mentor Frank - fair prices, good deals, and a great guy. I'm
assuming he makes quality inks so I'm going to buy them when I can see
them sometime, but I'm trying out the waterproof black in a pen I don't
like just in case it's problematic.

How safe is waterproof black in a vintage pen?

Nancy

Tony Stanford wrote:

Hi -

I share the same hesitance about trying a water-resistant or
'waterproof' black ink, much as I like black.

My problem is this. If it dries on a page and can't be washed off -
ie is virtually insoluble in water - then how on earth can it be
washed out of a pen if the ink is inadvertently left to dry in one?

I mean, if it's insoluble, then it won't dissolve out of the pen
either, right?

Or have I missed something? ...

You've not missed anything, Tony. The question is, what was added to the
ink to make it water-resistant. Some manufacturers add a bit of shellac
to retain shine after the ink dries and also increase water resistance.
In high enough proportions, you get traditional water-proof India Ink.
Some manufacturers add lampblack or carbon to make ink more "permanent"
(water and fade resistant). According to Frank's old posts, vintage ink
manufacturers added iron-gall to their inks to make them more
permanent... same stuff MB uses in their Blue-Black. The vintage inks
I've tried are nowhere near water-proof... they run and wash off paper
readily... I'll post some samples later. Frank claimed that adding a bit
of iron-gall to make an ink more permanent was totally harmless to pens.
IME, I'd have to agree. The question you want to ask about
Noodler's/Swisher's or any other fountain pen ink claiming to be
water-resistant or water-proof is ... what did they add to the ink to
make it so. Fountain pen ink is made with dyes that are water soluble...
for good reasons. Unless a manufacturer dramatically ups the dye content
(which would still produce running in water), nothing but adding some
water-resistant substance (like shellac, carbon/lampblack, iron-gall,
etc.) is going to increase the ink's water-resistance... Bernadette

Noodler's Black:

It was made so that you could dry out the bottle in the dry air near a coal
stove and then reconstitute it by adding water. Put a sample in a glass or
petrii dish - let it dry...then simply stir plain old water back in to the same
level the ink was at when freshly poured - and you'll see for yourself.

The ink can rinse off glass, poly plastics, nylon, celluloid, acrylics, lucite,
hard rubber, sheet rubber, sheet stainless steel, gold, palladium, pure latex -
& if not a simple rinse then with the simple action of a light brushing with
water (example: if the pen dried out multiple fillings and was left in a hot
drawer for six months or other long period, most will still wash out - but as
with any ink, you'll need to clean such a pen - especially Parker Vacs (but not
a Sheaffer plunger of course, that filler cleans itself nicely after such a
duration with a few plunges in water ;-)...it is of course always best to rinse
out the pens BEFORE long term storage when using ANY ink)..... Now for the
interesting part. The ink will alter itself in reaction to cellulose paper
and once DRIED on cellulose paper you will not be able to hinder its permanence
on that paper with: water, UV radiation, alcohol, ammonia, bleach, acetone, and
various industrial solvents and detergents often associated with the shady
people who alter documents. I hate forgers and I aimed to defeat them to the
greatest extent possible with this ink. After trying it yourself sometime, I
hope you agree. I also hate feathering - and this ink can be used to do the
crosswords on the newspaper or write on the cheapest recycled discount writing
paper at Sam's Club or Costco's. It is smooth writing with a deep black color
- and unlike Quink and Skrip - or the pricey Aurora...you don't have to
readdress an envelope if it fell on the wet ground during a rain storm! It is
science in a bottle.

This ink was tested by drying it out in pens, drying it out about rod stock and
in tubes, reconstituting it with water, hanging it in pure latex bags, and
testing more than 90 families of molds against its defenses (the most recent
bottles for example are perhaps among the most mold resistant inks in the past
60 years, as I hate mold as much as I hate forgers)....but it also HAD TO BEAT
BALL PENS for use on documents, records, signatures, etc... Ball point ink is
not as immune to alcohols and other solvents - it also ages very poorly
especially when faced with UV light radiation. Write a phrase with Noodler's
black on a lined document and tack it up to a sun soaked window - then take a
look at the paper a few weeks later and see if the lines exist anymore - and
compare them to the phrase you wrote. Also - you can make the paper fall into
bits of dust with a concentrated UV beam with the Noodler's Black remaining in
filigreed text unaltered - as if it were sunscreen on the paper. Soak the page
in the same alcohols that disolve ball pen ink. Soak it in water. Soak it in
bleach. Just a few of the experiments one can run if one is so inclined,
provided the ink has DRIED on cellulose PAPER!. If it is not dried on paper -
it will just rinse away. If you can remove my black ink from paper after it
has dried without destroying the document....let me know! I'll then try to fix
that as well... ;-)


Now a problem arose...legal documents such as a simple mortgage MUST have the
signature in BLUE because of photocopy abilities and legal requirements. I
only was able to produce such an ink in black (all other colors are
conventional, though they don't wash out of paper the way the two major brands
do and don't have the organic/mold problems of some others...one "notable"
black mentioned in this group washes out to an almost imperceptible faded blue
in only 5 minutes soaking - if you think that is good ink, then don't buy
Noodler's). Recently the elusive blue was formed, but the component costs
were so prohibitive that I quickly concluded there was no chance it could ever
be competitive despite its qualities. However, Aurora Black averages $20 per 3
oz, and would STILL cost more than even the UV light/waterproof blue - so Chuck
is trying out a sample called "Aquamarine Blue - Contract ink". Perhaps it can
compete - contact Chuck for more details. It is an experimental run just to
see if the market likes such an ink on the hunch that it might just provide for
certain needs such as contract ink. Being resistant to most of a forger's
arsenal, UV light, water, etc...blue might be just what is desired for a
certain important document that needs a signature to last...in blue. Also - if
you get some of the "Swisher Aquamarine Blue - Contract Ink", please send him
feedback. Any suggestion to improve the ink and its properties would be
greatly appreciated (don't e-mail me though, my e-mail is now beyond
hopeless...Chuck has a staff - I don't). Chuck is the only dealer carrying
this item, so all feedback should go through Swisher pens/Swisher Ink
concerning this model ink. It is a little faster flowing than the black - so
can't be used on newsprint or an industrial brown wrapping paper like the black
can be - but it shares the other properties of black such as being waterproof
once dried on cellulose paper. It is impervious to bleach - try that on any
other ink.....also immune to ammonia (separate experiment of course).
Keep in mind the water proof inks are themselves almost all water and
readily mix with water/disolve in water/rinse out with water - they work only
when they dry on cellulose paper! The black ink is most at home on cheap paper
- no need to splurge anymore....just get legal pads at the cheapest price you
can find and WRITE! This ink was made in part to please you on recycled and
defeat the plague that had beset fountain pens because of the increasing
dominance of recycled papers in stores. The standard inks (all 34 of them,
including specialty issues) were also the result of a war with recycled paper.

Lastly - some people have commented that Ottoman Rose is too deep a color to be
Persian Rose. Well, vintage Persian Rose had 9 color variations...suspected
causes being exposure to sunlight, water dilution, bacterial activity, other
colors being mixed when people refilled pens of divergent color contents into
the same bottle over time....etc.... The few mint bottles were different in
color as well! Some mint bottles had been exposed to sunlight. The color I
settled upon represents the closest to what I believe the original factory
fresh Persian Rose looked like - with greater intensity than the 50+ year old
vintage - and excluding shading/aging/dilution factors. I've told Chuck - if
people want the faded look...dilute Ottoman Rose with water...or smear it with
your thumb before it dries. Yet, if you like the more intense and fresher line
- just leave it be...

There will be "Rose of the Shah" at a later date (a few weeks) with an
elaborate label in the Noodler's line...just in case some prefer the aged look
to the fresh look, a color appropriate for 1979 one might say. It will have a
completely different base than Ottoman Rose, yet share equal intensity/contrast
upon the page and still be in the old persian rose range.

Did people actually like Penman Sapphire? It bleeds like tea in a tea
bag...write a word, soak in water - and poof....it vanishes before your eyes!
Is that desirable? I won't even try to mimic that - perhaps the color, but
certainly not the ink. Is quink black a black or a blue? Soak that in
water....and what do you see?

Love this group. I bet Frank still reads it!





Mr. Swisher:

I am impressed with your (aka Noodlers) water resistance. Does this water
resistance make it tough to clean a pen? I am one of the AR types who want
several consecutive clean flushes from a pen before it is returned to
storage - rinsing a Vac is bad enough without water resistant ink.

Love to hear someone's experience on this.

Dave

"Chuck Swisher" wrote in message
news:OjShc.919$VQ3.881@lakeread06...
At this time the black ink is the only color that Nathan calls "Extremely
Water Resistant"

Tony Stanford wrote:

Hi -

I share the same hesitance about trying a water-resistant or
'waterproof' black ink, much as I like black.

My problem is this. If it dries on a page and can't be washed off -
ie is virtually insoluble in water - then how on earth can it be
washed out of a pen if the ink is inadvertently left to dry in one?

I mean, if it's insoluble, then it won't dissolve out of the pen
either, right?

Or have I missed something? ...

You've not missed anything, Tony. The question is, what was added to the
ink to make it water-resistant. Some manufacturers add a bit of shellac
to retain shine after the ink dries and also increase water resistance.
In high enough proportions, you get traditional water-proof India Ink.

Bogus. No shellac. No latex. No iron gall. No acrylic. No crap.

It's the way it holds in a water lattice and the way that ceases to hold when
dried in/on only cellulose....and that's all I'm telling you because the
technical data is proprietary.

Some people will never even try the ink....but to those that do - I hope you
like it. If you are still a chronic cynic - I hope the ink made you smile at
least once even if only for an all too brief second.

Scaupaug wrote:
Noodler's Black:
/* snip - loads of interesting stuff */

First time for everything I suppose; I have never felt the urge to print out
a post & study it off line until now - so thanks Scaupaug. Anyone with a
special interest in ink is (I guess) going to be following this thread; so
anyone that was wondering how my aerometric pelikan fount indian ink
experiments were going (hm!) may be excited to learn that I have desisted.

There was no damage to my pen - but the viscosity of the ink really changed
the feel of the pen (this is my *guess* - I'm not a chemist); I was quite
surprised the change in feel was very different - my pelikan (in which I
still use fount) didn't suffer from this. All the (er) subtelty when out of
the pen; the flow seemed to increase radically.

Anyway - just maybe I saved somebody the bother of trying this. Very much
looking forward to trying noodler's black:- will it be "safe" fount?

jolyon

ospam (Scaupaug) writes:
oz, and would STILL cost more than even the UV light/waterproof blue
- so Chuck is trying out a sample called "Aquamarine Blue - Contract
ink". Perhaps it can compete - contact Chuck for more details. It
is an experimental run just to

It's not on the SwisherPen website yet, so I called them up on the phone
instead. I've ordered a bottle of the black, and a bottle of this new
Contract Blue.

I look forward to trying them out.


Now all I need is to pick out an accountant's nib to use on my multipart
form checks...

--
Mark Atwood | When you do things right, people won't be sure
| you've done anything at all.
http://www.pobox.com/~mra | http://www.livejournal.com/users/fallenpegasus

That's good enough for me, Nathan.

I wasn't questioning your integrity or knowledge: I just wondered,
purely as a query, how a waterproof ink could be washed out of a pen but
not out of paper. I'm sure you can understand why someone ignorant of
such things would need the question answering.

And you've answered it. When you have a UK distributor, I'll be first in
line for Noodlers black, my favourite colour.

Thanks for the info.

Best wishes

Tony

On Tue, 27 Apr 2004,05:11:04, Scaupaug wrote


Tony Stanford wrote:

Hi -

I share the same hesitance about trying a water-resistant or
'waterproof' black ink, much as I like black.

My problem is this. If it dries on a page and can't be washed off -
ie is virtually insoluble in water - then how on earth can it be
washed out of a pen if the ink is inadvertently left to dry in one?

I mean, if it's insoluble, then it won't dissolve out of the pen
either, right?

Or have I missed something? ...

You've not missed anything, Tony. The question is, what was added to the
ink to make it water-resistant. Some manufacturers add a bit of shellac
to retain shine after the ink dries and also increase water resistance.
In high enough proportions, you get traditional water-proof India Ink.

Bogus. No shellac. No latex. No iron gall. No acrylic. No crap.

It's the way it holds in a water lattice and the way that ceases to hold when
dried in/on only cellulose....and that's all I'm telling you because the
technical data is proprietary.

Some people will never even try the ink....but to those that do - I hope you
like it. If you are still a chronic cynic - I hope the ink made you smile at
least once even if only for an all too brief second.

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