Henry 7th Groat

Hello All,

As mentioned in previous posts, I have recently purchased a Henry7th Groat.
I wasn't expecting to get the coin so soon but the coin arrived today
despite the fact that I havn't paid for it yet! (I think someone made a
mistake at the auction house).

The following link is for a scan of the coin. I will post a photo of the
coin in the next few weeks after Dad has been to visit along with his
close-up camera gear! :-)

The coin was listed as an EF but I personally call it a Choice VF to gVF.
Having said that, I have seen coins a lot less attractive with significantly
more wear graded as aboutVF so This coin 'could' be EF. My personal opinion
is either Choice VF or gVF. I find it hard to grade coins that you only have
photos to compare with. I may in the future submit this coin to Spink for
grading.( I wish Spink had a slabbing service).

http://au.f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/...&.dnm=8be5.jpg

The catalogue value of this coin is £150in VF. If this coin is infact in a
grade higher than VF then I have purchased a bargain. Eitherway, I am very
pleased with this coin.

I should note that while the scan is quite a good reporduction of the coin,
it doesn't acurately show some of the detail. The actual coin has a dark
blue-steel toning which makes me think that this coin has been sitting in
someones collection for a long time. My dealer agrees with me on this and
although there is no provenance provided with the coin (I am going to email
the auction house and double check), both my dealer and I think this coin
has probably been hoping from collection to collection for a couple of
hundred years. That is pure speculation though, which does raise a question
I have:

Is there anyway that toning can be 'faked'? Is there some kind of treatment
that could enhance the colour of the coin in this manner? Opinions on this
would be greatly appreciated.

Kind regards,
Mame du Bois

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 22:07:57 +1000, "Mame" is alleged to
have written:

Hello All,

As mentioned in previous posts, I have recently purchased a Henry7th Groat.
I wasn't expecting to get the coin so soon but the coin arrived today
despite the fact that I havn't paid for it yet! (I think someone made a
mistake at the auction house).

The following link is for a scan of the coin. I will post a photo of the
coin in the next few weeks after Dad has been to visit along with his
close-up camera gear! :-)

The coin was listed as an EF but I personally call it a Choice VF to gVF.
Having said that, I have seen coins a lot less attractive with significantly
more wear graded as aboutVF so This coin 'could' be EF. My personal opinion
is either Choice VF or gVF. I find it hard to grade coins that you only have
photos to compare with. I may in the future submit this coin to Spink for
grading.( I wish Spink had a slabbing service).

http://au.f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/...&.dnm=8be5.jpg


Very nice. I'd call it a choice VF too, but I'm no expert on groat's. What I'm
thinking is wear could just be a weak strike or such.


I should note that while the scan is quite a good reporduction of the coin,
it doesn't acurately show some of the detail. The actual coin has a dark
blue-steel toning which makes me think that this coin has been sitting in
someones collection for a long time. My dealer agrees with me on this and
although there is no provenance provided with the coin (I am going to email
the auction house and double check), both my dealer and I think this coin
has probably been hoping from collection to collection for a couple of
hundred years. That is pure speculation though, which does raise a question
I have:

Is there anyway that toning can be 'faked'? Is there some kind of treatment
that could enhance the colour of the coin in this manner? Opinions on this
would be greatly appreciated.


Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: http://www.coinsite.com/content/orig...c/p0000080.htm

Fwiw, the toning looks good to me.

Bruce

"Mame" wrote in message
...
Hello All,

As mentioned in previous posts, I have recently purchased a Henry7th Groat.

http://au.f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/...&.dnm=8be5.jpg



That's very nice.
Well done.

BTW - what size is it? (dia / weight)
My hammered Henries are very thin - I guess the groat is too.

--
Jeff R.

Thankyou for that. That was interesting to read. I do have opinions on that
article that I would like to express.

Some of those methods mentioned are more legitimate than others. I have
previously posted on a retoning experiment I did on some sterling silver
coins about 2years ago. In short the best method I found was to sit the
coins in a jar with some crushed fresh eggshells. After a few weeks I
noticed a nice frosty natural looking tonging and lustre appearing on the
coin. The coins were high grade to start with so the toning looked natural.
My own dealer was impressed. The reason this method works is because egg
shells contain sulphur. Sulphur in the air around a coin is what causes a
silver coin to tone in the first place and this is also the same reason that
the paper envelope method works as sulphur is contained in some paper. This
could be a little simplistic but thats the basic theory.

I mentioned earlier in this post that some of the methods mentioned in that
article are more legitimate than others. Some of the methods seemed to me as
barbaric as spray painting the coins silver. Other methods seem to at least
attempt to replicate or simulate the natural process of toning on silver
coins. The method I mentioned and the envelope method are (IMHO) valid and
ethical methods of retoning a coin that may have been improperly cleaned or
cleaned in the name of restoration/preservation. I would like to point out
that the eggshell method is used by museums to retone silver items that they
have had to clean in order to restore. It was a member of the conservation
department at the Queensland Museum who told me of this method. Please note
that the coins I retoned were sterling silver.

I would never recommend or condone the (re)toning of perfectly ok coins
ESPECIALLY if the aim is to increase a coins value. I see these methods (and
possibly others) as methods for collectors to restore their damaged coins.
The joy (and responsibility) I get from the hobby is helping to ensure that
the coins I collect today will still be in the same condition (or even
better condition) in 50years time, so that the next generation can enjoy
what we have enjoyed and can then pass the coins on to the generation after
them. As such, I think preservation/restoration is something (IMO) that
numismatists don't learn enough about. I am not saying that everyone should
clean or retone their coins but at least being familiar with the mere basics
of metallurgy of numismatics is ideal.If only to help us make better
decisions about storage methods of our collection. A lot if not most
restoration is best left to the experts especially with copper/bronze coins
as they tend to look worse for wear when attempts at 'helping' them fail.

I also want to comment on a couple of the methods mentioned in that article.
Some of my opinions I am about to make are based on the reading I did before
I conducted my little informal experiment and some based on common sense and
some on gut instinct. I may be wrong but I feel strongly enough to make my
opinions known.

Vasoline, Motor Oil etc. compositions: I can't even begin to say whats wrong
with that idea..think of the implications...for starters, you would have to
rub the coin to get the excess off and secondly you are providing a coating
on the coin that would pretty much halt any further natural toning of the
coin. I have no idea what effect the vasoline (aka Petroleum Jelly) or
motoroil would have on the metal of the coin. Maybe the more metallurigcally
minded among us could enlighten me on this. I am guessing that there would
be corrosive effects in the long term??

Heat: DON"T HEAT TREAT COINS. I tried it and its DISASTROUS, UGLY and
IRREVERSIBLE. DO YOU UNDERSTAND! :-)

I had the idea of using the substances they use to colour the metal on
guns...I did the reading and found that the chemicals used in these
solutions are corrosive.

If you are planning on trying any of the sulphur solutions...DON"T. If you
insist, then proceed at your own peril! Sulphur compounds can be extremely
toxic and extremely corrosive. Also remember that if you are placing
anything directly on a coin then you have to neutralise the coin. Whenever I
have had to dip coins, I always soak in demineralised water for 10times the
amount of time the coin was in contact with the dip. In otherwords if I
dipped the coin for 1 minute then I soaked it in demineralised water for
10minutes (at least).

Mame




"Bruce Hickmott" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 22:07:57 +1000, "Mame" is alleged
to
have written:

Hello All,

As mentioned in previous posts, I have recently purchased a Henry7th
Groat.
I wasn't expecting to get the coin so soon but the coin arrived today
despite the fact that I havn't paid for it yet! (I think someone made a
mistake at the auction house).

The following link is for a scan of the coin. I will post a photo of the
coin in the next few weeks after Dad has been to visit along with his
close-up camera gear! :-)

The coin was listed as an EF but I personally call it a Choice VF to gVF.
Having said that, I have seen coins a lot less attractive with
significantly
more wear graded as aboutVF so This coin 'could' be EF. My personal
opinion
is either Choice VF or gVF. I find it hard to grade coins that you only
have
photos to compare with. I may in the future submit this coin to Spink for
grading.( I wish Spink had a slabbing service).


http://au.f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/...&.dnm=8be5.jpg


Very nice. I'd call it a choice VF too, but I'm no expert on groat's. What
I'm
thinking is wear could just be a weak strike or such.


I should note that while the scan is quite a good reporduction of the
coin,
it doesn't acurately show some of the detail. The actual coin has a dark
blue-steel toning which makes me think that this coin has been sitting in
someones collection for a long time. My dealer agrees with me on this and
although there is no provenance provided with the coin (I am going to
email
the auction house and double check), both my dealer and I think this coin
has probably been hoping from collection to collection for a couple of
hundred years. That is pure speculation though, which does raise a
question
I have:

Is there anyway that toning can be 'faked'? Is there some kind of
treatment
that could enhance the colour of the coin in this manner? Opinions on
this
would be greatly appreciated.


Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: http://www.coinsite.com/content/orig...c/p0000080.htm

Fwiw, the toning looks good to me.

Bruce

Hi Jeff,

Yes, mine are quite thin too. The Henry 7th is 25mm. Part of the legend is
missing on this example. Most likely from clipping in this case but
conceivably from a smaller flan.

My Henry 6th measures slightly bigger at 26.5mm and doesn't seem to suffer
as much from clipping. The flan is more fully rounded which helps it present
well.

http://au.f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/...&.dnm=f79b.jpg

Mame


"A.Gent" wrote in message
u...

"Mame" wrote in message
...
Hello All,

As mentioned in previous posts, I have recently purchased a Henry7th
Groat.


http://au.f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/...&.dnm=8be5.jpg



That's very nice.
Well done.

BTW - what size is it? (dia / weight)
My hammered Henries are very thin - I guess the groat is too.

--
Jeff R.