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#1
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How pieces of eight were cut
Hello,
I am new to this group, and know very little about collecting coins. I am writing because I have a question about pieces of eight. I lead tours of a building in Naper Settlement, a living history museum. One of the topics of discussion during the tour is the piece of eight. Visitors always ask me how the pieces of eight were cut, which I do not know. Is there anyone who can tell me how the pieces of eight were cut? If anyone has references on this that would also be very useful. Thanks for your help! Wendy |
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#2
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"wendy" wrote in message oups.com... Hello, I am new to this group, and know very little about collecting coins. I am writing because I have a question about pieces of eight. I lead tours of a building in Naper Settlement, a living history museum. One of the topics of discussion during the tour is the piece of eight. Visitors always ask me how the pieces of eight were cut, which I do not know. Is there anyone who can tell me how the pieces of eight were cut? If anyone has references on this that would also be very useful. Thanks for your help! Wendy I have no references (Google is your friend) but I can offer the following observations: The two likely methods a 1) cut with a toothed blade ("hacksaw"), or 2) cut with a sharp edged tool ("cold chisel") and hammer Method (1) is unlikely to be the best because: (i) the fine toothed blade would be expensive and difficult to maintain, and (ii) the operation of cutting removes "filings" equivalent to the width of the kerf. The kerf is the slot made when cutting, and is at least as wide as the blade is thick. Method (2) is much more likely because: (i) the tools (hammer and cold chisel) are (were) relatively cheap and easy to maintain. Plain steel (even iron) could be used on soft silver Reale coins. (ii) No filings are lost, as the chisel cut produces no waste. -and- (iii) a chisel cut would be much quicker and easier. (A "cold" chisel is named as such because they are used on cold -room temp.- items. This is as opposed to fuller's or blacksmith's chisels which are used on red-hot steel on an anvil.) Other factors: Hacksawing would leave a "jagged" and possibly crooked edge, depending on the skill of the operator. Chiselling would leave a straight edge (so long as the chisel is straight!) but with a sharpish (not flat) edge. The method used would be very easy to detect by observation. The issue of clipping or filing (post-cutting) would complicate things, though. -- Jeff R. |
#3
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"wendy" wrote:
Is there anyone who can tell me how the pieces of eight were cut? If anyone has references on this that would also be very useful. With whatever handtools were available, most commonly a mallet and chisel, but lacking anything else an axe. Here's a reference on cutting of 2 reale pieces: http://www.amnumsoc.org/cnl/Pistareens.pdf -- Michael Benveniste -- Spam and UCE professionally evaluated for $419. Use this email address only to submit mail for evaluation. |
#4
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It was done with an axe or chisel. In my Stack Lecture on this subject
some years ago, I presented the following: "But in southwestern Pennsylvania, where cut money had been common in the latter half of the 18th century, traveler and author Thomas Ashe spent four months in Pittsburgh and vicinity in 1806 and 1807 without encountering any. When he reached Paris, Kentucky, in July 1807, however, he paid the landlady of the inn for his breakfast with a dollar, adding, quote, "She took up the dollar, and pitching it to a negro, desired him to chop it. `Chop it! ma'am I want it changed,' [he said]. She made no reply, but going to the man, desired him to chop out of the dollar one quarter and one eighth; in other words, to cut out her charge of one shilling and threepence for my breakfast, and ninepence for my horse. The man did this with great dexterity, and returned me the dollar with nearly one fourth cut out, with an angle running to the middle, which gave it the appearance of three fourths of a circle. Learning that this was the legal mode of procuring change, I got the same dexterous person to transform a couple more dollars with his chisel, into quarters, eighths, and sixteenths. He executed that service in a few moments; I received a handful of small change, which I found of advantage on the road." Ashe spent the next month in Kentucky and Ohio. (Thanks to Alan Herbert for supplying this reference to me.)" Robert Leonard |
#5
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"Jeff R" wrote in message ... "wendy" wrote in message oups.com... Hello, I am new to this group, and know very little about collecting coins. I am writing because I have a question about pieces of eight. I lead tours of a building in Naper Settlement, a living history museum. One of the topics of discussion during the tour is the piece of eight. Visitors always ask me how the pieces of eight were cut, which I do not know. Is there anyone who can tell me how the pieces of eight were cut? If anyone has references on this that would also be very useful. Thanks for your help! Wendy I have no references (Google is your friend) but I can offer the following observations: The two likely methods a 1) cut with a toothed blade ("hacksaw"), or 2) cut with a sharp edged tool ("cold chisel") and hammer Method (1) is unlikely to be the best because: (i) the fine toothed blade would be expensive and difficult to maintain, and (ii) the operation of cutting removes "filings" equivalent to the width of the kerf. The kerf is the slot made when cutting, and is at least as wide as the blade is thick. Method (2) is much more likely because: (i) the tools (hammer and cold chisel) are (were) relatively cheap and easy to maintain. Plain steel (even iron) could be used on soft silver Reale coins. (ii) No filings are lost, as the chisel cut produces no waste. -and- (iii) a chisel cut would be much quicker and easier. (A "cold" chisel is named as such because they are used on cold -room temp.- items. This is as opposed to fuller's or blacksmith's chisels which are used on red-hot steel on an anvil.) Other factors: Hacksawing would leave a "jagged" and possibly crooked edge, depending on the skill of the operator. Chiselling would leave a straight edge (so long as the chisel is straight!) but with a sharpish (not flat) edge. The method used would be very easy to detect by observation. The issue of clipping or filing (post-cutting) would complicate things, though. -- Jeff R. The pieces I have are cold chiselled. |
#6
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On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:26:30 -0400, "Michael Benveniste"
wrote: With whatever handtools were available, most commonly a mallet and chisel, but lacking anything else an axe. A good blacksmith shear does the job, too. I think the only correct answer to the question is "whatever they had available." BLReed To e-mail me, remove the obvious spam trap. For collector coins and supplies at fair prices: http://tinyurl.com/pt9r Cool things and Bust Coin Forum: http://www.byronreed.com |
#7
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"Bob" wrote in message oups.com... It was done with an axe or chisel. In my Stack Lecture on this subject some years ago, I presented the following: "But in southwestern Pennsylvania, where cut money had been common in the latter half of the 18th century, traveler and author Thomas Ashe spent four months in Pittsburgh and vicinity in 1806 and 1807 without encountering any. When he reached Paris, Kentucky, in July 1807, however, he paid the landlady of the inn for his breakfast with a dollar, adding, quote, "She took up the dollar, and pitching it to a negro, desired him to chop it. `Chop it! ma'am I want it changed,' [he said]. She made no reply, but going to the man, desired him to chop out of the dollar one quarter and one eighth; in other words, to cut out her charge of one shilling and threepence for my breakfast, and ninepence for my horse. The man did this with great dexterity, and returned me the dollar with nearly one fourth cut out, with an angle running to the middle, which gave it the appearance of three fourths of a circle. Learning that this was the legal mode of procuring change, I got the same dexterous person to transform a couple more dollars with his chisel, into quarters, eighths, and sixteenths. He executed that service in a few moments; I received a handful of small change, which I found of advantage on the road." Ashe spent the next month in Kentucky and Ohio. (Thanks to Alan Herbert for supplying this reference to me.)" Robert Leonard I have a small bag of cut halfpennies and farthings from 13th century England, some of them appear to have been axed, others cut with shears. These are common, and can be found in the mini hoards like I have, of several hundred pieces. But I have not yet seen a cut dollar, I wonder if it actually was one of the Spanish milled dollars? |
#8
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Scottishmoney wrote:
"Bob" wrote in message oups.com... It was done with an axe or chisel. In my Stack Lecture on this subject some years ago, I presented the following: "But in southwestern Pennsylvania, where cut money had been common in the latter half of the 18th century, traveler and author Thomas Ashe spent four months in Pittsburgh and vicinity in 1806 and 1807 without encountering any. When he reached Paris, Kentucky, in July 1807, however, he paid the landlady of the inn for his breakfast with a dollar, adding, quote, "She took up the dollar, and pitching it to a negro, desired him to chop it. `Chop it! ma'am I want it changed,' [he said]. She made no reply, but going to the man, desired him to chop out of the dollar one quarter and one eighth; in other words, to cut out her charge of one shilling and threepence for my breakfast, and ninepence for my horse. The man did this with great dexterity, and returned me the dollar with nearly one fourth cut out, with an angle running to the middle, which gave it the appearance of three fourths of a circle. Learning that this was the legal mode of procuring change, I got the same dexterous person to transform a couple more dollars with his chisel, into quarters, eighths, and sixteenths. He executed that service in a few moments; I received a handful of small change, which I found of advantage on the road." Ashe spent the next month in Kentucky and Ohio. (Thanks to Alan Herbert for supplying this reference to me.)" Robert Leonard I have a small bag of cut halfpennies and farthings from 13th century England, some of them appear to have been axed, others cut with shears. These are common, and can be found in the mini hoards like I have, of several hundred pieces. But I have not yet seen a cut dollar, I wonder if it actually was one of the Spanish milled dollars? I remember reading many years ago that "cob" means "cut from a bar", or similar. Billy |
#9
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Spanish milled dollars were certainly cut for small change in the 18th
and early 19th centuries in the Colonies and United States, chiefly along the frontier where minted change was scarce. Besides the eyewitness quotation given earlier in this thread, there are many other contemporary references to them, and they have been excavated by archaeologists and found with metal detectors. Regarding "cob," the old etymology that it comes from the Spanish "cabo de barra," "end of the bar" is pure nonsense, as "cob" is not the Spanish name for these coins, which is "macuquina." "Cob" is an Irish term meaning "lump," as a "cob of coal." Obviously it was applied in an English-speaking country to these lumplike coins. However, this legend never seems to die. Incidentally, the term "bit" for the Spanish real is found in the Colonial Archives of Pennsylvania in the 17th century, many decades before the introduction of the Spanish milled dollar and its cutting. It just refers to the smallest coin seen in circulation (think "threepenny bit"). Again, the erroneous belief that it comes from cut pieces of eight seems too well-established to be stamped out. (But I try!) Robert Leonard |
#10
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Does the fact that the term bit does not come from the cut pieces of
eight imply that an eight of a spanish milled dollar was not called a "bit"? |
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