New On-line translation tool

Besides having access to the Google translation tool
and Babellfish, I have just discovered another one.

http://gramtrans.com/?pair=da-en

This one concentrates on English, Danish, Swedish,
Norwegian, Portuguese and Esperanto. Very handy
for a stamp collector of these areas.

Blair

Besides having access to the Google translation tool
and Babellfish, I have just discovered another one.

http://gramtrans.com/?pair=da-en

This one concentrates on English, Danish, Swedish,
Norwegian, Portuguese and Esperanto. Very handy
for a stamp collector of these areas.

Blair

"Blair (TC)" wrote in message
...
Besides having access to the Google translation tool
and Babellfish, I have just discovered another one.

http://gramtrans.com/?pair=da-en

This one concentrates on English, Danish, Swedish,
Norwegian, Portuguese and Esperanto. Very handy
for a stamp collector of these areas.

Hi Blair.

Here's an example of something I happen to be working on at the moment.

Papel porcelana é um papel preparado com uma camada de gesso. A sua
superfície é macia e tem um brilho de pérola. Papel lustrado é um papel
idêntico ao papel esmalte mas de pior qualidade.

"Porcelana" paper is one prepared with a chalk coating. The surface is soft
with a pearl-like lustre. "Lustrado" paper is identical to "Esmalte" paper
but of poorer quality.

gramtrans: Paper porcellaen is a prepared paper with a class of plaster. His
surface is soft and has a gloss of pearl.
Polished paper is a paper identical with the paper enamel but of worse
quality.
--
Tony Vella, Ottawa, Canada
http://tv-stamps.shorturl.com

"Blair (TC)" skrev i en meddelelse
...
Besides having access to the Google translation tool
and Babellfish, I have just discovered another one.

http://gramtrans.com/?pair=da-en

This one concentrates on English, Danish, Swedish,
Norwegian, Portuguese and Esperanto. Very handy
for a stamp collector of these areas.

Blair

Thanks Blair,
This might be useful, but still needs some improvement.
I tried out the well-known Danish philatelic expression brostempel, which
was translated to "bridge stamp", which it is not. The correct answer should
be "bridge cancellation", or "bridge cancel".

obviously it is the word "stempel" that isn't translated correctly, and if
other words are so unsure, what cannot the user end up with?

I also did the first paragraph of the welcome page on my world heritage site
from English to Danish, and the translation is so poor that it can hardly be
called a translation. It is simply a disgrace. I have met foreign collectors
of Danish stamps, who can do better on their own ...

Further I asked the machine to translate the first few phrases of the Danish
National Anthem, "King Christian". Again, the translation was so poor, that
knowing that the official translation was done by Henry Wadsworth
Longfellow, I have my serious doubts about this machine.

Mette

Addendum:
"Mette" skrev i en meddelelse
...


http://gramtrans.com/?pair=da-en


Thanks Blair,
This might be useful, but still needs some improvement.
I tried out the well-known Danish philatelic expression brostempel, which
was translated to "bridge stamp", which it is not. The correct answer
should
be "bridge cancellation", or "bridge cancel".

obviously it is the word "stempel" that isn't translated correctly, and if
other words are so unsure, what cannot the user end up with?

I also did the first paragraph of the welcome page on my world heritage
site
from English to Danish, and the translation is so poor that it can hardly
be
called a translation. It is simply a disgrace. I have met foreign
collectors
of Danish stamps, who can do better on their own ...

Further I asked the machine to translate the first few phrases of the
Danish
National Anthem, "King Christian". Again, the translation was so poor,
that
knowing that the official translation was done by Henry Wadsworth
Longfellow, I have my serious doubts about this machine.

For the sake of "clarity" I should have included the Longfellow-version of
the Danish National Anthem. Here it comes, copied from Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kong_Christian
Kong Kristian stod ved højen mast
i røg og damp;
hans værge hamrede så fast,
at gotens hjelm og hjerne brast.
Da sank hvert fjendtligt spejl og mast
i røg og damp.
Fly, skreg de, fly, hvad flygte kan!
hvo står for Danmarks Kristian
hvo står for Danmarks Kristian
i kamp?
Niels Juel gav agt på stormens brag.
Nu er det tid.
Han hejsede det røde flag
og slog på fjenden slag i slag.
Da skreg de højt blandt stormens brag:
Nu er det tid!
Fly, skreg de, hver, som véd et skjul!
hvo kan bestå mod Danmarks Juel
hvo kan bestå mod Danmarks Juel
i strid?
O, Nordhav! Glimt af Wessel brød
din mørke sky.
Da ty'de kæmper til dit skød;
thi med ham lynte skræk og død.
Fra vallen hørtes vrål, som brød
den tykke sky.
Fra Danmark lyner Tordenskjold;
hver give sig i himlens vold
hver give sig i himlens vold
og fly!
Du danskes vej til ros og magt,
sortladne hav!
Modtag din ven, som uforsagt
tør møde faren med foragt
så stolt som du mod stormens magt,
sortladne hav!
Og rask igennem larm og spil
og kamp og sejer før mig til
og kamp og sejer før mig til
min grav!

English translation
(by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow)

King Kristian stood by the lofty mast
In mist and smoke;
His sword was hammering so fast,
Through Gothic helm and brain it passed;
Then sank each hostile hulk and mast,
In mist and smoke.
"Fly!" shouted they, "fly, he who can!
Who braves of Denmark's Kristian,
Who braves of Denmark's Kristian,
In battle?"
Nils Juel gave heed to the tempest's roar,
Now is the hour!
He hoisted his blood-red flag once more,
And smote upon the foe full sore,
And shouted loud, through the tempest's roar,
"Now is the hour!"
"Fly!" shouted they, "for shelter fly!
Of Denmark's Juel who can defy,
Of Denmark's Juel who can defy,
The power?"
North Sea! a glimpse of Wessel rent
Thy murky sky!
Then champions to thine arms were sent;
Terror and Death glared where he went;
From the waves was heard a wail, that rent
Thy murky sky!
From Denmark thunders Tordenskiol',
Let each to Heaven commend his soul,
Let each to Heaven commend his soul,
And fly!
Path of the Dane to fame and might!
Dark-rolling wave!
Receive thy friend, who, scorning flight,
Goes to meet danger with despite,
Proudly as thou the tempest's might,
Dark-rolling wave!
And amid pleasures and alarms,
And war and victory, be thine arms,
And war and victory, be thine arms,
My grave!

Mette

On Nov 22, 5:04 am, "Mette" wrote:
Addendum:
"Mette" skrev i en ws.tele.dk...





http://gramtrans.com/?pair=da-en

Thanks Blair,
This might be useful, but still needs some improvement.
I tried out the well-known Danish philatelic expression brostempel, which
was translated to "bridge stamp", which it is not. The correct answer
should
be "bridge cancellation", or "bridge cancel".

obviously it is the word "stempel" that isn't translated correctly, and if
other words are so unsure, what cannot the user end up with?

I also did the first paragraph of the welcome page on my world heritage
site
from English to Danish, and the translation is so poor that it can hardly
be
called a translation. It is simply a disgrace. I have met foreign
collectors
of Danish stamps, who can do better on their own ...

Further I asked the machine to translate the first few phrases of the
Danish
National Anthem, "King Christian". Again, the translation was so poor,
that
knowing that the official translation was done by Henry Wadsworth
Longfellow, I have my serious doubts about this machine.

For the sake of "clarity" I should have included the Longfellow-version of
the Danish National Anthem. Here it comes, copied from Wikipediahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kong_Christian
Kong Kristian stod ved højen mast
i røg og damp;
hans værge hamrede så fast,
at gotens hjelm og hjerne brast.
Da sank hvert fjendtligt spejl og mast
i røg og damp.
Fly, skreg de, fly, hvad flygte kan!
hvo står for Danmarks Kristian
hvo står for Danmarks Kristian
i kamp?
Niels Juel gav agt på stormens brag.
Nu er det tid.
Han hejsede det røde flag
og slog på fjenden slag i slag.
Da skreg de højt blandt stormens brag:
Nu er det tid!
Fly, skreg de, hver, som véd et skjul!
hvo kan bestå mod Danmarks Juel
hvo kan bestå mod Danmarks Juel
i strid?
O, Nordhav! Glimt af Wessel brød
din mørke sky.
Da ty'de kæmper til dit skød;
thi med ham lynte skræk og død.
Fra vallen hørtes vrål, som brød
den tykke sky.
Fra Danmark lyner Tordenskjold;
hver give sig i himlens vold
hver give sig i himlens vold
og fly!
Du danskes vej til ros og magt,
sortladne hav!
Modtag din ven, som uforsagt
tør møde faren med foragt
så stolt som du mod stormens magt,
sortladne hav!
Og rask igennem larm og spil
og kamp og sejer før mig til
og kamp og sejer før mig til
min grav!

English translation
(by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow)

King Kristian stood by the lofty mast
In mist and smoke;
His sword was hammering so fast,
Through Gothic helm and brain it passed;
Then sank each hostile hulk and mast,
In mist and smoke.
"Fly!" shouted they, "fly, he who can!
Who braves of Denmark's Kristian,
Who braves of Denmark's Kristian,
In battle?"
Nils Juel gave heed to the tempest's roar,
Now is the hour!
He hoisted his blood-red flag once more,
And smote upon the foe full sore,
And shouted loud, through the tempest's roar,
"Now is the hour!"
"Fly!" shouted they, "for shelter fly!
Of Denmark's Juel who can defy,
Of Denmark's Juel who can defy,
The power?"
North Sea! a glimpse of Wessel rent
Thy murky sky!
Then champions to thine arms were sent;
Terror and Death glared where he went;
From the waves was heard a wail, that rent
Thy murky sky!
From Denmark thunders Tordenskiol',
Let each to Heaven commend his soul,
Let each to Heaven commend his soul,
And fly!
Path of the Dane to fame and might!
Dark-rolling wave!
Receive thy friend, who, scorning flight,
Goes to meet danger with despite,
Proudly as thou the tempest's might,
Dark-rolling wave!
And amid pleasures and alarms,
And war and victory, be thine arms,
And war and victory, be thine arms,
My grave!

Mette

Thanks Mette and Tony.

As I have worked, on and off, with attempts to create
language translation software for over 35 years, I
certainly realize many of the problems involved.

However, I can also note, in that period of time, the
vast progress of such tools.

Many of the problems are related to the quirks
of the languages themselves and words with more
than one meaning (or two words that are spelled
identically) mean that the logic to handle the word's
meaning, in context, is of utmost importance.

In any case , I take my hat off to the Danish
and Norwegian scholars who are making a valiant
effort at this.

As to how lay persons (ie non-collectors) can
interpret what we philatelists are talking about,
well that is an entirely different matter.

8*)

Blair

"Blair (TC)" wrote in message
...
On Nov 22, 5:04 am, "Mette" wrote:
Thanks Mette and Tony.

As I have worked, on and off, with attempts to create
language translation software for over 35 years, I
certainly realize many of the problems involved.

However, I can also note, in that period of time, the
vast progress of such tools.

Many of the problems are related to the quirks
of the languages themselves and words with more
than one meaning (or two words that are spelled
identically) mean that the logic to handle the word's
meaning, in context, is of utmost importance.

In any case , I take my hat off to the Danish
and Norwegian scholars who are making a valiant
effort at this.

As to how lay persons (ie non-collectors) can
interpret what we philatelists are talking about,
well that is an entirely different matter.

Hi Blair:

At my old department we discovered that our translation budget, set in
April, was usually exhausted by August and that the rest of the year
translation services had to be paid for from other line-objects. We decided
at one time to invite machine-translation companies to come and exhibit
their software, install it on a couple of computers, and allow us 3 months
for testing. The best we got was from Systran: they offered us over
250,000 lemmas in English-French and just under 200,000 lemmas in
French-English. Yet, even this seemingly-high database brought the average
accuracy (FR-EN-FR and EN-FR-EN) to just over 50%.

Gran-trans is offering some numbers -- google and altavista will not --
which indicate that their work is cut out for them. For example SW-DA has
only 36,500 lemmas which gives an idea of the software's limitation. NO-DA
on the other hand is already at 189,000 bilingual expressions while DA-NO is
only at 89,000. Which makes me wonder how a text DA-NO-DA would result.
Maybe Mette can play with a paragraph from AFA ..........
--
Tony Vella, Ottawa, Canada
http://tv-stamps.shorturl.com

"Tony Vella" skrev i en meddelelse
...

"Blair (TC)" wrote in message
...
On Nov 22, 5:04 am, "Mette" wrote:
Thanks Mette and Tony.

As I have worked, on and off, with attempts to create
language translation software for over 35 years, I
certainly realize many of the problems involved.

However, I can also note, in that period of time, the
vast progress of such tools.

Many of the problems are related to the quirks
of the languages themselves and words with more
than one meaning (or two words that are spelled
identically) mean that the logic to handle the word's
meaning, in context, is of utmost importance.

In any case , I take my hat off to the Danish
and Norwegian scholars who are making a valiant
effort at this.

As to how lay persons (ie non-collectors) can
interpret what we philatelists are talking about,
well that is an entirely different matter.

Hi Blair:

At my old department we discovered that our translation budget, set in
April, was usually exhausted by August and that the rest of the year
translation services had to be paid for from other line-objects. We
decided at one time to invite machine-translation companies to come and
exhibit their software, install it on a couple of computers, and allow us
3 months for testing. The best we got was from Systran: they offered us
over 250,000 lemmas in English-French and just under 200,000 lemmas in
French-English. Yet, even this seemingly-high database brought the
average accuracy (FR-EN-FR and EN-FR-EN) to just over 50%.

Gran-trans is offering some numbers -- google and altavista will not --
which indicate that their work is cut out for them. For example SW-DA has
only 36,500 lemmas which gives an idea of the software's limitation.
NO-DA on the other hand is already at 189,000 bilingual expressions while
DA-NO is only at 89,000. Which makes me wonder how a text DA-NO-DA would
result. Maybe Mette can play with a paragraph from AFA ..........
--
Tony Vella, Ottawa, Canada
http://tv-stamps.shorturl.com

Blair and Tony,

Yes, I could play around with a paragraph from AFA. But given that the
Gram-Trans people gave the link in a thread on the Danish newsgroup in a
different (yet philatelic) context, it would be fair to expect that a simple
translation could be done without mistake(s).

However, I tried to translate a small sentence from AFA of an absolutely
non-philatelic content. I asked a translation DA-EN, and the same sentence
back to DA, with two mighty different results, not only in understanding the
logic of the sentence. .

Try a Danish word like "guinea pig", and you will get "prøveklud". Correct.
But from English back to Danish the result was an animal, of which I don't
even know the noun in English! Here is a wiki-search of what I found.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinea_pig

Seemingly fair enough, but most certainly out of context ...

I tested the software also on a paragraph of a non-philatelic content from
one of my homepages, (from English to Dansih), and what a misery. I could
hardly recognize my own language ;-) So I tend to agree with Tony's
observations, except that the accuracy in this case seems limited to some
20-25%.

Mette

"rodney" wrote in message
...

"Mette" wrote in message
...

Try a Danish word like "guinea pig", and you will get "prøveklud".
Correct.
But from English back to Danish the result was an animal, of which I
don't
even know the noun in English! Here is a wiki-search of what I found.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinea_pig
Seemingly fair enough, but most certainly out of context ...

It seems to me you entered a derivative, which returned a literal,
thereby illustrating the difficulty in translation, I doubt a contextual
translator will ever be accomplished.

Hi Rod. Here's a funny one.

In 1963 the small Italian village of Longarone was buried under a mud slide
and close to 2000 villagers were killed. Until official death certificates
could be obtained from Rome, the city of Belluno issued temporary death
certificates -- the banner under the Belluno coat-of-arms reading
Certificato Provvisorio di Morte. Many years later while working at the
Foreign Languages Bureau of the Secretary of State, I entered the
information on one of these certificates into a $4000 experimental
translation software - top of the line at the time - which rendered it as
Certificate of Temporary Death. Pathetic! Unfortunately, since then
advances in machine translation have remained insignificant.

I agree with you, a fully-reliable machine translation is still just a pipe
dream.
--
Tony Vella, Ottawa, Canada
http://tv-stamps.shorturl.com

"Mette" wrote in message
...

Try a Danish word like "guinea pig", and you will get "prøveklud".
Correct.
But from English back to Danish the result was an animal, of which I don't
even know the noun in English! Here is a wiki-search of what I found.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinea_pig
Seemingly fair enough, but most certainly out of context ...

It seems to me you entered a derivative, which returned a literal,
thereby illustrating the difficulty in translation, I doubt a contextual
translator will ever be accomplished.