A collecting forum. CollectingBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » CollectingBanter forum » Collecting newsgroups » Coins
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Sick of Dealers and Coins



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old August 27th 03, 08:09 PM
Ira Stein
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

James McCown states:

Well, Ira, I'll give you just one example of what I have seen.

A non-collector in Columbus was trying to sell a collection she
inherited. She had received an offer from a nationally prominent
dealer in the area (hint:Westerville) and was unsure whether or not to
accept it. A friend of mine who runs an antique store asked me to look
at the woman's coins. Here is just a partial list:

(1) Complete set of indian cents. The 1877 was at least MS-63 BN.

(2) Complete set of standing liberty quarters. The 1916 and the
overdate were decent VG's and the 1927-S was a solid MS-60.

(3) Nearly complete set of Morgan dollars (lacking 1895-P and 1893-S).
The 89-CC was XF.

so far as I could tell, all of the key dates were genuine.

The offer was $500!

This kind of crap goes on all the time, at coin shows and elsewhere.

I don't understand why, but there is some adverse selection problem
that attracts unscrupulous people to become coin dealers. You can
stick your head in the sand and deny it all you want, but it's a fact.


An adverse selection process that attracts unscrupulous people to become coin
dealers? Well, thank you Jim for that vote of confidence! I called you
gullible, and you call me a miscreant of the first order!

There's slimeballs in any business, whether it's antiques, coins, stamps
collectible sports cards, or jewlery business.

If that offer happened the way you stated, and that was that dealer's standard
way of doing business, he'd be out of business in short order. That type of
rip-off rarely goes unnoticed, as these guys love to brag about those deals!

These anecdotes are called "my Aunt Emma" stories. The teller seeks to "prove
his point" with a single point of light. Hardly using the scientific method!



Ira Stein
Ads
  #23  
Old August 27th 03, 10:01 PM
JSTONE9352
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

A non-collector in Columbus was trying to sell a collection she
inherited. She had received an offer from a nationally prominent
dealer in the area (hint:Westerville)



I know who that would be. No names
from me (smile face here).
  #24  
Old August 27th 03, 10:03 PM
JSTONE9352
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

These anecdotes are called "my Aunt Emma" stories. The teller seeks to "prove
his point" with a single point of light. Hardly using the scientific method!



What scientific method would that be?
  #25  
Old August 27th 03, 10:31 PM
Frank Provasek
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article , (Phil Barnhart) wrote:

Obviously a work of fiction.

RARE COIN AUCTIONS NO MINIMUMS
http://frankcoins.com
Ebay Powerseller FRANKCOINS Texas Auction License 11259
Board member of Texas Coin Dealers Association, Fort Worth Coin Club.
Member: Texas Numismatic Assoc, American Numismatic Assoc.
  #26  
Old August 27th 03, 11:37 PM
Keith Michaels
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article ,
ospam (Ira Stein) writes:
| J Stone writes:
|
|
|
| What scientific method would that be?
|
|
| Many samples, test repeated with same coins over a much larger dealer sample
| size, particularly at a medium to large sized show where competition would
| force dealers to be competitive.
|
| I heard these stories till I'm sick of them, always unsubstantiated and each
| re-telling increases the enormity of the ripoff.
|
| If you'all want to jump on this Barnhardt character's original claim of
| deception at the ANA Convention, be my guest.
|
| Buy all your stuff from pawnshops and barn auctions and flea markets. Oh yes,
| don't forget the marvelous items at the average club auction after the meeting!
| Don't buy ANYTHING on eBay because the sellers are all scam artists there as
| well, aren't they?
|
| Avoid legitimate dealers like the plague. You're bound to get great prices and
| huge selections at the flea markets. Don't buy anything certified by reputable
| 3rd party companies because they're all ripoffs too as the major dealers can
| get ANY grade they want by simply asking.
|
| Excuse me, but I'm off to mix myself a Bloody Mary with an extra dose of
| Absolute.
|
|
|
|
| Ira Stein


The dissatisfaction with dealers stems from irrefutable logic:

Rare coins are valuable.

Collectors want valuable coins.

There's not enough rare coins to provide stock for dealers, so dealers
pretend their own (common) coins are valuable, and devalue the coins
of others. This is because they live off difference between what a savvy
collector will pay and what a naive collector will pay, and maximizing
profit requires keeping the two as far apart as possible. This is not a
free market; it thrives by limiting the flow of information. If you don't
believe me take your collection to a dealer and see what is offered, then
see what it goes for on ebay.
  #27  
Old August 28th 03, 12:35 AM
Frank Provasek
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article , (Keith Michaels) wrote:


The dissatisfaction with dealers stems from irrefutable logic:

Rare coins are valuable.

Collectors want valuable coins.

There's not enough rare coins to provide stock for dealers, so dealers
pretend their own (common) coins are valuable, and devalue the coins
of others. This is because they live off difference between what a savvy
collector will pay and what a naive collector will pay, and maximizing
profit requires keeping the two as far apart as possible. This is not a
free market; it thrives by limiting the flow of information. If you don't
believe me take your collection to a dealer and see what is offered, then
see what it goes for on ebay.


Compare the true wholesale cost of most consumer goods,
particularly jewelry and clothes, with retail. and you will see that coins
have a lower spread than almost anything else you buy.

A dealer that pretends his own common coins are valuable will
not sell many.

A dealer that devalues the coins of others will not buy many for
inventory.

Try running a coin shop for a month without going nuts.

The hot checks, stolen credit cards.

The people who bring in a 1943 steel peeny and scream at you because
you wont pay the 1/4 million dollars that Paul Harvey said it was
worth.

The people who buy phony coins from the flea market and scream at
you that you are trying to lowball them by saying they are phony.

The people who want you to make a firm offer based on a list of
coins with prices from a coin book they bought from the dime store
( all proof 65, or course)

People who bring in coins and scream at you because you won't
give them a profit over what they paid Littleton or Coin Vault.

Cops who have nothing better to do than "sting" operations where they
take some coins, PRETEND they are stolen, then take them to coin
dealers and see if they try and buy them.

RARE COIN AUCTIONS NO MINIMUMS
http://frankcoins.com
Ebay Powerseller FRANKCOINS Texas Auction License 11259
Board member of Texas Coin Dealers Association, Fort Worth Coin Club.
Member: Texas Numismatic Assoc, American Numismatic Assoc.
  #28  
Old August 28th 03, 12:42 AM
JSTONE9352
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


A dealer that pretends his own common coins are valuable will
not sell many.



Unless they are the Home Shopping
Network (smile face here).
  #29  
Old August 28th 03, 02:18 AM
Bruce Remick
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Harv wrote:

"Phil Barnhart" wrote in message
om...
Mmm - lets say you know nothing of coins and get several as part of an
estate. HOW are you going to educate yourself? Library references in
most towns are woefully out of date and inadequate. Do a Google
search on coin collecting (make it fair - pick a subject you know
NOTHING about collecting, do a search, and give yourself a half-hour -
could you now determine the value of a particular item? Nope). So
what are ya going to do. What would a typical non-collector do?
Since numismatics is one of the few areas without independent
appraisers, you take your coins to the local dealer . . . .

What else would someone do? Reasonably?


Find or make a friend who is an experienced collector, sit down with him and
his collection and your stuff and start asking questions. How does anyone
learn about anything? They have a teacher or a mentor. Were you born knowing
how to drive or how to balance a checkbook or ride a bicycle or use a
computer? I've been using computers since the late 1970s and still don't
pretend to know everything, and still ask questions of friends who
specialize in certain areas in which my knowledge is lacking. Of course I
don't NEED to know everything there is to know. I don't NEED to know how to
program in assembly language. If you're trying to sell coins, you don't NEED
to know the mechanics of how a coin press works..

You can only take "self taught" to a certain limit, and then you have to
seek the advice of others with more experience and just start asking a lot
of questions. There's only so much you get from buying a pile of coin books
and trying to teach yourself what it all means.

Unfortunately, they don't give college courses in Numismatics, but if there
really are tens of millions of collectors in the US, they probably should..
If they did, all those ripoff teevee coin selling shows would soon go away
as people learned what a scam they are. Dealers wouldn't rub their hands
with glee like Mr. Burns when they fleece an uneducated seller out of a
valuable coin for pennies on the dollar.

It's like anything else in life. If you wanna play the game, you have to
learn the rules.. and the best way to learn the rules are from someone else
who already knows them..

Harv


That's the same opinion I would have offered. If you have come into a
collection of something that you believe may be valuable and want to
sell it, get someone you can confide in to help you get advice as to the
best place to sell it--if you must. Unless you have to have cash in
your hands by Tuesday, you should have plenty of time to explore the
possibilities. I have little sympathies for the person, elderly or not,
who unloads inherited valuables or collectibles just because he doesn't
know anything about their true worth and won't take the time to find
out. Ironically, I would like to leave my coin collection to the
relative who is the most well off and would be the least likely to run
out and unload it the next day.

Bruce
  #30  
Old August 28th 03, 01:37 PM
Blaine
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"I have little sympathies for the person, elderly or not, who unloads
inherited valuables or collectibles just because he doesn't
know anything about their true worth and won't take the time to find out."

Wonderful attitude and great compassion you have for humanity.
In my business, Bonds, that is called fraud.
It is regulated at multiple levels and your coldhearted response is an
attitude that would get you barred from the Bond business.
Perhaps you would cheer for me if the next recently widowed old lady brought
her husbands life savings in and I paid 25 cents on the dollar.

Get a conscience you fool.


"Bruce Remick" wrote in message
...
Harv wrote:

"Phil Barnhart" wrote in message
om...
Mmm - lets say you know nothing of coins and get several as part of an
estate. HOW are you going to educate yourself? Library references in
most towns are woefully out of date and inadequate. Do a Google
search on coin collecting (make it fair - pick a subject you know
NOTHING about collecting, do a search, and give yourself a half-hour -
could you now determine the value of a particular item? Nope). So
what are ya going to do. What would a typical non-collector do?
Since numismatics is one of the few areas without independent
appraisers, you take your coins to the local dealer . . . .

What else would someone do? Reasonably?


Find or make a friend who is an experienced collector, sit down with him

and
his collection and your stuff and start asking questions. How does

anyone
learn about anything? They have a teacher or a mentor. Were you born

knowing
how to drive or how to balance a checkbook or ride a bicycle or use a
computer? I've been using computers since the late 1970s and still don't
pretend to know everything, and still ask questions of friends who
specialize in certain areas in which my knowledge is lacking. Of course

I
don't NEED to know everything there is to know. I don't NEED to know how

to
program in assembly language. If you're trying to sell coins, you don't

NEED
to know the mechanics of how a coin press works..

You can only take "self taught" to a certain limit, and then you have to
seek the advice of others with more experience and just start asking a

lot
of questions. There's only so much you get from buying a pile of coin

books
and trying to teach yourself what it all means.

Unfortunately, they don't give college courses in Numismatics, but if

there
really are tens of millions of collectors in the US, they probably

should..
If they did, all those ripoff teevee coin selling shows would soon go

away
as people learned what a scam they are. Dealers wouldn't rub their hands
with glee like Mr. Burns when they fleece an uneducated seller out of a
valuable coin for pennies on the dollar.

It's like anything else in life. If you wanna play the game, you have to
learn the rules.. and the best way to learn the rules are from someone

else
who already knows them..

Harv


That's the same opinion I would have offered. If you have come into a
collection of something that you believe may be valuable and want to
sell it, get someone you can confide in to help you get advice as to the
best place to sell it--if you must. Unless you have to have cash in
your hands by Tuesday, you should have plenty of time to explore the
possibilities. I have little sympathies for the person, elderly or not,
who unloads inherited valuables or collectibles just because he doesn't
know anything about their true worth and won't take the time to find
out. Ironically, I would like to leave my coin collection to the
relative who is the most well off and would be the least likely to run
out and unload it the next day.

Bruce



 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How to avoid getting cheated on eBay - periodic post Reid Goldsborough Coins 1 August 16th 03 01:30 AM
Coin grading/authentication services -- periodic post Linda Coins 6 August 8th 03 06:25 AM
Should I be worried about coin damage? Ron Coins 8 August 1st 03 03:38 AM
Help on telling repro Linda Coins 11 July 30th 03 02:03 AM
Value Guides Keith Tilley Coins 3 July 21st 03 07:50 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:32 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 CollectingBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.