MS-60 to MS-70... Question!

So, not all uncirculated coins are created equal. We have the MS-60 on the
lower end, and the MS-70 on the ideal end. Some people might argue the
latter should only exist in theory. This brings me to my question.

What, in your opinion, is the range of coins that qualifies as
"uncirculated" vs. "brilliant uncirculated" vs. "gem uncirculated"

e.g. For instance, someone might say:
MS-60 to MS-62 is uncirculated
MS-63 to MS-65 is brilliant uncirculated
MS-66 to MS-69 is gem uncirculated
MS-70 is perfect uncirculated

Would the above be accurate? Do people have other opinions on this? Or,
perhaps, is this not a matter of opinion and there exists an actual
definition that puts each of these numerical grades into one of the buckets
identified above? Please enlighten me.

Many thanks.

On Dec 4, 10:46*pm, "Naissur Bara" wrote:
So, not all uncirculated coins are created equal. We have the MS-60 on the
lower end, and the MS-70 on the ideal end. Some people might argue the
latter should only exist in theory. This brings me to my question.

What, in your opinion, is the range of coins that qualifies as
"uncirculated" vs. "brilliant uncirculated" vs. "gem uncirculated"

e.g. For instance, someone might say:
MS-60 to MS-62 is uncirculated
MS-63 to MS-65 is brilliant uncirculated
MS-66 to MS-69 is gem uncirculated
MS-70 is perfect uncirculated

Would the above be accurate? Do people have other opinions on this? Or,
perhaps, is this not a matter of opinion and there exists an actual
definition that puts each of these numerical grades into one of the buckets
identified above? Please enlighten me.

Many thanks.


Grade inflation is the great fact of the last thirty years or more in
U.S. coin collecting.

If one were to fire up the time machine and go WAY WAY BACK to the
early 1980s....

Today's MS-63 is what used to be called uncirculated and Today's MS-65
is what used to be called nice uncirculated.

Today's MS-62 is what used to be called uncky, a slider, probably nice
looking (but not always).

Today's MS-61 is what used to be called about uncirculated (maybe nice
looking, maybe not).

Today's MS-60 is what used to be called about uncirculated, probably
ugly looking (but not always).

The grades above MS-65 would rarely, if ever, have been acknowledged -
but of course, a really really nice historic coin would certainly have
commanded premium prices.

The idea of having newly minted coins graded MS-70 "perfect" and
selling for insane premiums would have been laughed at (back in those
days, people DIDN'T BUY bottled water either; people were much smarter
back in those days).

But if one did have a useful time machine, the best thing to use it
for would to be to go back in time and ensure that...

oly

On Dec 4, 11:46*pm, "Naissur Bara" wrote:
So, not all uncirculated coins are created equal. We have the MS-60 on the
lower end, and the MS-70 on the ideal end. Some people might argue the
latter should only exist in theory. This brings me to my question.

What, in your opinion, is the range of coins that qualifies as
"uncirculated" vs. "brilliant uncirculated" vs. "gem uncirculated"

e.g. For instance, someone might say:
MS-60 to MS-62 is uncirculated
MS-63 to MS-65 is brilliant uncirculated
MS-66 to MS-69 is gem uncirculated
MS-70 is perfect uncirculated

Would the above be accurate? Do people have other opinions on this? Or,
perhaps, is this not a matter of opinion and there exists an actual
definition that puts each of these numerical grades into one of the buckets
identified above? Please enlighten me.

Many thanks.

The term "uncirculated" refers to a coin in the MS range (MS-60 thru
MS-70). The modifiers really mean nothing, although your example is
probably as good as anyone's.

If you've ever watched a Coins-For-Sale shopping show (e.g., the old
Coin Vault on HSN) or infomercial, you've heard all kinds of crap (and
it is crap) about "These coins are BRILLIANT UNCIRCULATED!" If you do
your research, you'd probably find they're selling a marginal MS-63 at
an MS-65+ price. And they're not lying since, by your example,
they're selling a BRILLIANT UNCIRCULATED coin.

In the old days here, we used to preach a lot of wisdom. This is one
thread where one piece of that wisdom is germane... Learn how to
grade.

Jerry
Longing for the old days.

I don't have a copy of Coin World in front of me, but they do have an
advertisers guide that translated descriptive terms into the MS
scale.

I believe, although am not exactly sure, that their guidelines read
something like:

BU -- at least MS60
Gem BU -- at least MS63
Premium BU -- at least MS65

Although I do not agree with these adjective associations, I find that
they correspond well to my expectations when I buy coins. So, I never
expect a coin described as "Gem BU" to be better than MS63. Of course,
If I can see the the coins I don't argue grade with the seller I
discuss the price. I find that many sellers will knock of a few buck
from the price, which usually brings it into close accord with my
expectations.

"Bones" wrote in message
...
I don't have a copy of Coin World in front of me, but they do have an
advertisers guide that translated descriptive terms into the MS
scale.

I believe, although am not exactly sure, that their guidelines read
something like:

BU -- at least MS60
Gem BU -- at least MS63
Premium BU -- at least MS65

Although I do not agree with these adjective associations, I find that
they correspond well to my expectations when I buy coins. So, I never
expect a coin described as "Gem BU" to be better than MS63. Of course,
If I can see the the coins I don't argue grade with the seller I
discuss the price. I find that many sellers will knock of a few buck
from the price, which usually brings it into close accord with my
expectations.

Nowadays, with the long-entrenched MS grading system, I tend to be skeptical
of any major dealers who still offer raw uncirculated coins with
descriptions such as "Superb Brilliant Uncirculated" or "Premium Quality BU"
or plain old "Brilliant Uncirculated". This tells me either they have no
confidence in their own grading capability or else the coins rate a lower MS
grade than the superlatives might suggest to a buyer and they're trying to
cover their ass by using words that may sound precise but are subject to
interpretation.

"Bremick" wrote in message
...
Nowadays, with the long-entrenched MS grading system, I tend to be skeptical
of any major dealers who still offer raw uncirculated coins with descriptions
such as "Superb Brilliant Uncirculated" or "Premium Quality BU" or plain old
"Brilliant Uncirculated". This tells me either they have no confidence in
their own grading capability or else the coins rate a lower MS grade than the
superlatives might suggest to a buyer and they're trying to cover their ass by
using words that may sound precise but are subject to interpretation.

I agree.
In this day of micro-grading coins, such descriptions are definitely old hat,
probably designed to midlead buyers into thinking the coins are better than
MS60.
My take:
Brilliant Uncirculated (BU) = MS60
Premium Quality BU = MS61
Superb BU = MS63

On Dec 6, 9:44*am, "Bremick" wrote:
"Bones" wrote in message

...





I don't have a copy of Coin World in front of me, but they do have an
advertisers guide that translated descriptive terms into the MS
scale.

I believe, although am not exactly sure, that their guidelines read
something like:

BU -- at least MS60
Gem BU -- at least MS63
Premium BU -- at least MS65

Although I do not agree with these adjective associations, I find that
they correspond well to my expectations when I buy coins. So, I never
expect a coin described as "Gem BU" to be better than MS63. Of course,
If I can see the the coins I don't argue grade with the seller I
discuss the price. I find that many sellers will knock of a few buck
from the price, which usually brings it into close accord with my
expectations.

Nowadays, with the long-entrenched MS grading system, I tend to be skeptical
of any major dealers who still offer raw uncirculated coins with
descriptions such as "Superb Brilliant Uncirculated" or "Premium Quality BU"
or plain old "Brilliant Uncirculated". *This tells me either they have no
confidence in their own grading capability or else the coins rate a lower MS
grade than the superlatives might suggest to a buyer and they're trying to
cover their ass by using words that may sound precise but are subject to
interpretation.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Maybe they just don't want to make the TPG services rich? A common
silver dollar can be desireable enough but not cross the $$$
threshhold where it justifies the TPG expenditure.

oly

"oly" wrote in message
...
On Dec 6, 9:44 am, "Bremick" wrote:
"Bones" wrote in message

...





I don't have a copy of Coin World in front of me, but they do have an
advertisers guide that translated descriptive terms into the MS
scale.

I believe, although am not exactly sure, that their guidelines read
something like:

BU -- at least MS60
Gem BU -- at least MS63
Premium BU -- at least MS65

Although I do not agree with these adjective associations, I find that
they correspond well to my expectations when I buy coins. So, I never
expect a coin described as "Gem BU" to be better than MS63. Of course,
If I can see the the coins I don't argue grade with the seller I
discuss the price. I find that many sellers will knock of a few buck
from the price, which usually brings it into close accord with my
expectations.

Nowadays, with the long-entrenched MS grading system, I tend to be
skeptical
of any major dealers who still offer raw uncirculated coins with
descriptions such as "Superb Brilliant Uncirculated" or "Premium Quality
BU"
or plain old "Brilliant Uncirculated". This tells me either they have no
confidence in their own grading capability or else the coins rate a lower
MS
grade than the superlatives might suggest to a buyer and they're trying to
cover their ass by using words that may sound precise but are subject to
interpretation.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Maybe they just don't want to make the TPG services rich? A common
silver dollar can be desireable enough but not cross the $$$
threshhold where it justifies the TPG expenditure.

___________

I have no doubt you're right, but I still wonder why a big dealer would
avoid the MS grading system most in the hobby have come to accept and rely
upon for uncirculated coins. With big $$ differences often found as one
goes up the MS scale, how is one to value a sight-unseen "Premium Quality
BU" coin?

The Official ANA Grading Standards dropped all the "choice-select-gem"
hype words about ten yers ago. The only official term for MS60
through MS70 is UNCIRCULATED.

http://frankcoins.com/grades.jpg

"Naissur Bara" wrote in message
...
I wanted to thank everyone who has taken the time to respond to my query. I
have been enthusiastically reading all the posts.

Though it is hard for me to know what "old school" is since I myself
wasn't even born back "then". But I tend to agree with those of the
opinion that many of the qualifiers frequently associated with
"uncirculated" don't necessarily make sense and perhaps are used to
inflate prices. But then again, we cannot dispute that there is a market
for these ultra high grades at least in some cases.

There is indeed a market for many high MS grade coins, as long as they are
slabbed in one of the major TPG firm's holders. On the other hand, there's
only a limited market for raw high MS graded coins. Probably depends on the
reputation of the dealer/seller.


I personlly would like, in an ideal world, to see "uncirculated" and
"[insert special qualifier of your choice] uncirculated" to distinguish
between your average standard uncirculated, and the exceptionally
appealing one.

That's pretty much what the MS grades are supposed to tell you. Plus
there's those extra "quality" stickers, too.


In any case, many thanks to all. This was very helpful to me.

It all may come down to a coin's eye appeal and whether it's affordable.