If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
ZARA Overprint on Italy
I have three used Italian definitives of 1929 Victor Emmanuel and
Augustus with this overprint which I can't find in SG. ------------ ============ ============ === ZARA === ============ ------------ (the horizontal lines are actually solid and equally-spaced.) Google finds a Zara in the general area of Venezia, Giulia & Istria, but no ZARA overprint is shown under VG&I. Other ideas, anyone? Chris |
Ads |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
|
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Hi Chris
Zara is actually "Zadar" in Croatia, occupied as part of the Italian occupation of Dalmatia (part of the Austro-Hungarian empire) in 1918. By the treaty of Rapallo,12 November 1920 all Dalmatia except Zara was ceded to the new Yugoslavia. The areas in Dalmatia in Italian hands after that coutry's invasion of Yugoslavia (including Zara ) were occupied by Germany after the Italian armistice with the allies on 8 September 1943. The stamps overprinted as described were issued on 4 November 1943. After the German defeat it was returned to Croatia as part of the federal Yugoslavia. This information gleaned from various volumes of the Stanley Gibbons specialised stamp catalogue. Note at various times during WW2 parts of Yugoslavia were occupied by and/or ceded to Germany,Italy,Hungary,Albania and Bulgaria, and when you couple this with Yugoslav occupation of parts of Italy it makes for quite a mess. I would imagine that genuine covers from the period 1918 - 1945 would be quite an interesting area of study - but quite beyond my wallet ( and I think beyond my brain power - a cursory glance at the SG volumes show that you would need at least a Ph.D in Balkan History to follow the ins and outs of each individual town and city). The 3 stamps you have should be 1929 - 42 issue 50c,75c and 1L25. They are catalogued in SG Balkans 1987 at £20.50 mint, £50.00 used, uncatalogued on cover but at a guess stratospheric!!! Hope this helps Regards Malcolm .. Tracy Barber wrote in message . .. On 22 Sep 2004 17:59:21 -0700, (Chris Doran) wrote: I have three used Italian definitives of 1929 Victor Emmanuel and Augustus with this overprint which I can't find in SG. ------------ ============ ============ === ZARA === ============ ------------ (the horizontal lines are actually solid and equally-spaced.) Google finds a Zara in the general area of Venezia, Giulia & Istria, but no ZARA overprint is shown under VG&I. Other ideas, anyone? In my 1996 Sassone catalog, this is mentioned as "Occupazioni Straniere", on page 665. This is the overall category. They are listed as part of "Occupazioni Tedesca - 1943-44". Since I can't read much more Italiano, that's what I'll mention here. This, apparently, had to do with the Germans occupying part of Italy, because early issues of ZARA are overprinted "Deutsche Besetzung Zara". |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
On 23 Sep 2004 04:57:15 -0700, (malcolm
hirst) wrote: Hi Chris Zara is actually "Zadar" in Croatia, occupied as part of the Italian occupation of Dalmatia (part of the Austro-Hungarian empire) in 1918. By the treaty of Rapallo,12 November 1920 all Dalmatia except Zara was ceded to the new Yugoslavia. The areas in Dalmatia in Italian hands after that coutry's invasion of Yugoslavia (including Zara ) were occupied by Germany after the Italian armistice with the allies on 8 September 1943. The stamps overprinted as described were issued on 4 November 1943. After the German defeat it was returned to Croatia as part of the federal Yugoslavia. This information gleaned from various volumes of the Stanley Gibbons specialised stamp catalogue. Note at various times during WW2 parts of Yugoslavia were occupied by and/or ceded to Germany,Italy,Hungary,Albania and Bulgaria, and when you couple this with Yugoslav occupation of parts of Italy it makes for quite a mess. I would imagine that genuine covers from the period 1918 - 1945 would be quite an interesting area of study - but quite beyond my wallet ( and I think beyond my brain power - a cursory glance at the SG volumes show that you would need at least a Ph.D in Balkan History to follow the ins and outs of each individual town and city). The 3 stamps you have should be 1929 - 42 issue 50c,75c and 1L25. They are catalogued in SG Balkans 1987 at £20.50 mint, £50.00 used, uncatalogued on cover but at a guess stratospheric!!! I wonder why Sassone states 1943 for the overprints? Hmmmm... . Tracy Barber wrote in message . .. On 22 Sep 2004 17:59:21 -0700, (Chris Doran) wrote: I have three used Italian definitives of 1929 Victor Emmanuel and Augustus with this overprint which I can't find in SG. ------------ ============ ============ === ZARA === ============ ------------ (the horizontal lines are actually solid and equally-spaced.) Google finds a Zara in the general area of Venezia, Giulia & Istria, but no ZARA overprint is shown under VG&I. Other ideas, anyone? In my 1996 Sassone catalog, this is mentioned as "Occupazioni Straniere", on page 665. This is the overall category. They are listed as part of "Occupazioni Tedesca - 1943-44". Since I can't read much more Italiano, that's what I'll mention here. This, apparently, had to do with the Germans occupying part of Italy, because early issues of ZARA are overprinted "Deutsche Besetzung Zara". |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
"Mr. Tracy Barber" wrote in message ... On 23 Sep 2004 04:57:15 -0700, (malcolm hirst) wrote: Hi Chris Zara is actually "Zadar" in Croatia, occupied as part of the Italian occupation of Dalmatia (part of the Austro-Hungarian empire) in 1918. By the treaty of Rapallo,12 November 1920 all Dalmatia except Zara was ceded to the new Yugoslavia. The areas in Dalmatia in Italian hands after that coutry's invasion of Yugoslavia (including Zara ) were occupied by Germany after the Italian armistice with the allies on 8 September 1943. The stamps overprinted as described were issued on 4 November 1943. After the German defeat it was returned to Croatia as part of the federal Yugoslavia. This information gleaned from various volumes of the Stanley Gibbons specialised stamp catalogue. Note at various times during WW2 parts of Yugoslavia were occupied by and/or ceded to Germany,Italy,Hungary,Albania and Bulgaria, and when you couple this with Yugoslav occupation of parts of Italy it makes for quite a mess. I would imagine that genuine covers from the period 1918 - 1945 would be quite an interesting area of study - but quite beyond my wallet ( and I think beyond my brain power - a cursory glance at the SG volumes show that you would need at least a Ph.D in Balkan History to follow the ins and outs of each individual town and city). The 3 stamps you have should be 1929 - 42 issue 50c,75c and 1L25. They are catalogued in SG Balkans 1987 at £20.50 mint, £50.00 used, uncatalogued on cover but at a guess stratospheric!!! I wonder why Sassone states 1943 for the overprints? Hmmmm... Because it remained as a part of Italy until its surrender in 1943, then the Germans took control over all parts of Italy that were not under Allied control. Tony . Tracy Barber wrote in message . .. On 22 Sep 2004 17:59:21 -0700, (Chris Doran) wrote: I have three used Italian definitives of 1929 Victor Emmanuel and Augustus with this overprint which I can't find in SG. ------------ ============ ============ === ZARA === ============ ------------ (the horizontal lines are actually solid and equally-spaced.) Google finds a Zara in the general area of Venezia, Giulia & Istria, but no ZARA overprint is shown under VG&I. Other ideas, anyone? In my 1996 Sassone catalog, this is mentioned as "Occupazioni Straniere", on page 665. This is the overall category. They are listed as part of "Occupazioni Tedesca - 1943-44". Since I can't read much more Italiano, that's what I'll mention here. This, apparently, had to do with the Germans occupying part of Italy, because early issues of ZARA are overprinted "Deutsche Besetzung Zara". |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Thanks everyone. I'd never have thought of looking under Yugoslavia,
though with hindsight I can find the relevant Zara/Zadar at http://www.fallingrain.com/world/HR/20/Zadar.html Two of my three are the 50c and 75c, the lower CVs of the set, but not the more valuable 1L25 (now £110 used on http://www.allworldstamps.com/), but as they came from an Italy mixture working out at a few pence each and are now £15 and £16 used, I'm still (literally) quids in :-) The third stamp remains a mystery -- it's the sepia 10c Augustus (Italy SG 241) which I don't see listed with a ZARA overprint, though it is there with Deutsche Besetzung Zara. Does anyone have it in a different cat? The Zara page at http://www.rtvmodeler.com/ReichStamps/ has only the DBZs. Chris (Allen Bohart) wrote in message . com... The Zara overprints were issued in 1943 after the Italians surrendered to the Allies, and the Germans moved in to occupy the country. Some images and more information is available he http://www.rtvmodeler.com/ReichStamps/ Hope this helps. Allen Mr. Tracy Barber wrote in message . .. On 22 Sep 2004 17:59:21 -0700, (Chris Doran) wrote: I have three used Italian definitives of 1929 Victor Emmanuel and Augustus with this overprint which I can't find in SG. ------------ ============ ============ === ZARA === ============ ------------ (the horizontal lines are actually solid and equally-spaced.) Google finds a Zara in the general area of Venezia, Giulia & Istria, but no ZARA overprint is shown under VG&I. Other ideas, anyone? In my 1996 Sassone catalog, this is mentioned as "Occupazioni Straniere", on page 665. This is the overall category. They are listed as part of "Occupazioni Tedesca - 1943-44". Since I can't read much more Italiano, that's what I'll mention here. This, apparently, had to do with the Germans occupying part of Italy, because early issues of ZARA are overprinted "Deutsche Besetzung Zara". |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 17:00:52 -0500, "A.E. Gelat"
wrote: The 3 stamps you have should be 1929 - 42 issue 50c,75c and 1L25. They are catalogued in SG Balkans 1987 at £20.50 mint, £50.00 used, uncatalogued on cover but at a guess stratospheric!!! I wonder why Sassone states 1943 for the overprints? Hmmmm... Because it remained as a part of Italy until its surrender in 1943, then the Germans took control over all parts of Italy that were not under Allied control. Yup, but I wonder why - if they were issued in 1943 - how they could be part of an earlier set. |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
In a recent message (Chris Doran) wrote:
Thanks everyone. I'd never have thought of looking under Yugoslavia, though with hindsight I can find the relevant Zara/Zadar at http://www.fallingrain.com/world/HR/20/Zadar.html Two of my three are the 50c and 75c, the lower CVs of the set, but not the more valuable 1L25 (now £110 used on http://www.allworldstamps.com/), but as they came from an Italy mixture working out at a few pence each and are now £15 and £16 used, I'm still (literally) quids in :-) The third stamp remains a mystery -- it's the sepia 10c Augustus (Italy SG 241) which I don't see listed with a ZARA overprint, though it is there with Deutsche Besetzung Zara. Does anyone have it in a different cat? The Zara page at http://www.rtvmodeler.com/ReichStamps/ has only the DBZs. Chris I have both Sassone and Catalago Enciclopedico Italiano. These list the Zara with lines overprint for 50c, 75c and 1l25. It is also known for the 20c Caesar type, and the 25c and 30c War Propaganda types. The former is thought to be a proof from a single sheet, not known used. Dangerous false (forged) overprints are known for this series, and if you have a 10c I suspect that might probably be forged, and the fact that you have two others casts doubts on their authenticity. The Italians seem to be very prolific in manufacturing extra examples of scarce overprints - I have several copies of very rare CLN issues which make me wonder as to their authenticity! -- Tony Clayton or Coins of the UK : http://www.tclayton.demon.co.uk/coins.html Values of Coins of the UK : http://www.tclayton.demon.co.uk/values/coins.html Metals used in Coins : http://www.tclayton.demon.co.uk/metal.html Sent using RISC OS on an Acorn Strong Arm RiscPC .... :.::: ::..: ::.::. :..:: Tagline in Braille |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Chris,
I would be very careful with these, as the overprint issues of German occupied countries are infamous for the prevalence of fakes and forgeries. I suspect that the 10c you have is one, and it may be that the other two are as well. My Michel German specialized catalog also does not list a 10c. A good place to pose the question, along with scans, is in the Third_Reich_Stamps group on yahoo. Some incredibly knowledgable people over there. Specifically, Jay Carrigan is a person who can almost certainly give you an answer concerning identification and validity. Allen (Chris Doran) wrote in message . com... Thanks everyone. I'd never have thought of looking under Yugoslavia, though with hindsight I can find the relevant Zara/Zadar at http://www.fallingrain.com/world/HR/20/Zadar.html Two of my three are the 50c and 75c, the lower CVs of the set, but not the more valuable 1L25 (now £110 used on http://www.allworldstamps.com/), but as they came from an Italy mixture working out at a few pence each and are now £15 and £16 used, I'm still (literally) quids in :-) The third stamp remains a mystery -- it's the sepia 10c Augustus (Italy SG 241) which I don't see listed with a ZARA overprint, though it is there with Deutsche Besetzung Zara. Does anyone have it in a different cat? The Zara page at http://www.rtvmodeler.com/ReichStamps/ has only the DBZs. Chris |
|
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Auction Italy 1862 - 1942 CV 1150 usd | wj | Worldwide Stamps | 0 | December 3rd 04 07:07 PM |
Some Exotics #1 ~ South Kasai | Rodney | General Discussion | 2 | July 9th 04 05:20 AM |
Gossaert Madonna Booklet Overprint | Ronald Maifeld | General Discussion | 3 | December 26th 03 02:19 PM |
Gossaert Madonna Booklet Overprint | Ronald Maifeld | US Stamps | 0 | December 23rd 03 07:36 PM |
another Turkey overprint id please | Tony Vella | General Discussion | 8 | September 11th 03 10:14 PM |